Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers  (Read 15420 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« on: February 03, 2011, 03:30:19 pm »
I am thinking of surprising my wife by getting her favorite game fully functional in Mame - Q*Bert.  

Fist, I have been trying to gather information on putting together a system that has working knockers but all the information I can find seems a bit out of date or no longer exists.  For instance, QMAME used to have the ability, apparently, to trigger the knockers.   But it looks like that is dead.  I am hoping that its dead because Mame now includes this ability, or that maybe there is a diff to enable it. So question 1 is, does Mame support knockers?

Second, I found something called PowermiteDD which mentions that it can power a Q-Bert Knocker.  But apart from that, the site is bereft of any other information.  Anyone have experience with this?

Finally, I need the Q-Bert knockers.  Is anyone making them, or something similar, or do I need to find originals?  Edit: Just found this: http://store.pacmandotcom.com/knocker-parts/503-qbert-knocker-assemby-complete.html :  So thats is a start.

Sorry if this is somewhere else, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

Any thoughts?

« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 03:34:04 pm by milhouse »

newmanfamilyvlogs

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1643
  • Last login:Today at 09:42:47 am
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,103584.msg1096585.html#msg1096585
    • Newman Family Vlogs
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 04:07:04 pm »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6254
  • Last login:September 17, 2019, 04:04:19 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 04:15:25 pm »
Finally, I need the Q-Bert knockers.  Is anyone making them, or something similar, or do I need to find originals?

You can use just about any solenoid with a spring return, as long as you have the ability to drive it.  Just mount it someplace close to a side wall so it raps on the panel when activated.


milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 04:28:07 pm »
Thanks for the quick replies.  Mame Hooker + Led-Wiz + Solenoid should do it, it looks like

Rando

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 462
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 07:49:31 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 04:47:49 pm »
I am thinking of surprising my wife by getting her favorite game fully functional in Mame - Q*Bert.  

Interesting.  Q*Bert is one of my wife's favorite games as well.  I could take it or leave it.

Finally, I need the Q-Bert knockers.  Is anyone making them, or something similar, or do I need to find originals?

Wow, I'm really embarassed to ask this, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one, sooo... What's a knocker?

Hey... nice knockers!
Rando - My build thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107741.msg1142843#msg1142843 (work slowed but still progressing!

bkenobi

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1666
  • Last login:October 18, 2017, 12:08:50 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 06:24:10 pm »
Many pinball tables have them too AFAIK.  It basically is a device that literally makes a knocking sound.  As RandyT said, it's just a solenoid that is activated to make the knock.  Should be pretty straight forward.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=675&parent=0

wp34

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4250
  • Last login:July 29, 2019, 06:04:02 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 06:48:52 pm »
Thanks for the quick replies.  Mame Hooker + Led-Wiz + Solenoid should do it, it looks like

+1

I need to do the same thing soon.  Great thread.   :cheers:

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6254
  • Last login:September 17, 2019, 04:04:19 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 07:33:44 pm »
Many pinball tables have them too AFAIK.

Yep.  When I bought my "High Speed" table, it annoyed the hell out of me that the knocker was making a dull thud.  No satisfaction in that when you start rocking the table!  Turns out someone had put a nylon cap on the end of the shaft to dull the sound.   :angry:  At least it was an easy fix.

I also wanted to mention that if one is worried about eventually denting the wood, a fairly thin metal strike plate screwed to the panel should still let it make a pretty good knock.

garwil

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 99
  • Last login:September 07, 2019, 02:25:05 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 05:26:19 am »
I read knockers and thought this was gonna be about boobs.  :(

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 05:11:10 pm »
Many pinball tables have them too AFAIK.  It basically is a device that literally makes a knocking sound. 
Actualy, the qbert devs were trying to find a way to make qbert unique.  They came up with the idea to use a pinball solenoid for the knock.  So any pinball solenoid you can find is technically the correct hardware for the job.

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3466
  • Last login:December 22, 2018, 04:12:11 pm
  • North East, US
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 05:45:02 pm »
Oddly enough I saw the word "knockers" and thought hmmm, nice.
Then I saw it was about pinaball knockers and I became even more interested.

I once repaired a T2 Pinball where the ball shooter solenoid was bad. I wasn't able to get one right away and the customer also had an Adams Family Pinball.
It turns out the free game knocker on the Adams Family was the exact same as the shooter for the T2.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:34:24 am »
I ordered a complete Q*Bert Knocker Assemblyand a 30V Power Supply so I think I need a relay to actually trigger the knocker.  Since I plan to use the LedWiz to trigger it, can anyone tell me what kind of relay I need?  I understand the concept and everything, and I assume its a relay that handles a 30V high current and a 5V low current, but I am having trouble figuring out how to what voltages specific relays work on.   I think this relay (Relay, 5v, DPDT, PCB Mount, Sealed, 2A 30V DC, 0.6A 125V AC, 0.6A 110V DC) would work, but can anyone more versed in electronics confirm?

Thanks

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 09:33:43 am »
A relay would wear out pretty fast in this application.  Assuming the thing is DC powered, a largeish power transistor (probably a darlington) is a good way to drive it.  Since the LED-Wiz has sink-only outputs, you have to drive it high-side using a PNP type (a P channel MOSFET would also work).  This should be reliable and pretty easy to assemble (it's 2 resistors plus the transistor).  Wire it up as in the below image.

Q1 is a TIP107; you can get that at Digi-Key.  Other PNP darlingtons can also be used and may be available at Radio Shack or Fry's.  A non darlington PNP can be used but will require adjusting R1 and R2 and may end up requiring the LED-Wiz or optoisolator to sink too much current.  A heatsink is recommended on the transistor.
R1 should be about 500 ohms.
R2 should be about 5-10kohm (make it about 1k when using a the MOSFET identified below) and can probably be omitted as the TIP107 has it built in (but you do need it when using a MOSFET, and it doesn't hurt in any case).

A P-channel MOSFET might not get as hot and can be substituted for Q1 with the changes identified above.  A STP12PF06 looks like a decent choice.  The terminals maps as Gate=Base, Source=Emitter, Drain=Collector.  The darlington PNP may be a bit more tolerant of current surges and won't be static sensitive like a MOSFET would, though.  Take your pick or try both.

This circuit assumes the LED-Wiz can handle a 30V collector voltage.  I *think* it can, but the website isn't clear.  Ask Randy.  If it can't the circuit gets a little more complicated.

It also assumes that you're OK with tying your PC's ground to your solenoid 30V power supply's ground.  This should generally be OK if you're powering nothing but the solenoid from that supply.  Tie the two grounds together as shown.

Both problems can be solved with the addition of an optoisolator, forming the second circuit.

The +5V in this circuit is from the LED-Wiz.
R3 is about 1k.
U1 is an LTV-816 (in stock at Digi-Key).

There are other ways to build this if you can't get the parts I've identified, but the above should work.  It'll drive just about any high current (up to ~8A) DC load.  I don't know what the Q-Bert knocker draws, but I hope it's not more than that!  8A @ 30V is 240W!

Even though the TIP107 and STP12PF06 have one built in, I'd still recommend that you install the freewheeling diode across the knocker as per any inductive load to protect the transistor.  1N4002 or similar should be sufficient.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 09:43:56 am by MonMotha »

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 03:07:24 pm »
Wow. That seems like a lot more trouble, or maybe just work (I am good with low-level electronics, aka buttons and leds, but beyond that I have some trouble).  Are you sure a relay would wear out that fast?  Its not a dedicated Q*Bert cab.  I figure at the absolute most, the solenoid is going to fire about 10 times a day.

But thanks for the extremely in-depth post.  Its what makes this place great.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 03:51:28 pm »
Most relays are good for a few thousand cycles when switching an inductive DC load like a solenoid before they start to give.  It varies, of course.  Some of the new stuff is pretty good.  Sometimes you get lucky.  Sometimes you get unlucky.  Usage of a freewheeling diode across the knocker coil will help by keeping internal arcing to a minimum and is recommended with any drive method.

If you want to use a relay, you certainly can.  It hooks up as shown below. I generally try to avoid mechanical relays unless absolutely necessary as anything mechanical tends to become a reliability issue in the long term, but then I'm usually looking to build at least a few hundred of something.

If you hook up the "bank select voltage" line on the LED-Wiz properly, you shouldn't need a freewheeling diode across the coil of the relay, but it doesn't hurt to install one.  1N4001 or 1N4148 type should be fine.

You'll have to find a 5V relay capable of switching your load if you want to use the 5V that comes off the LED-Wiz.  They exist, but I doubt Radio Shack sells them.  You could use a 12V relay powered from the PC supply, instead.  How to do so is in the LED-Wiz documentation.  Radio Shack carried a decent assortment of 12V relays last time I checked (years ago, and they've pulled back a lot on that since).  The 2A@30V relay you've identified in your post is probably a bare minimum, especially in an inductive application such as this.  The more you overspec, the longer they'll last.  I'd recommend a larger relay.

Do you have any ratings for the solenoid?  It's 30V, but what kind of current does it pull?  The rating on that fuse would be a good start if you've got nothing else to go by.  I've been operating on the assumption that it's "a few amps".

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 10:39:40 am »
The relay method definitely seems more manageable.  I don't know the specs of the solenoid yet as its in transit.  It appears to be a Gottlieb A-5195 but I'm not having any luck on the specs.  Luckily my father and father-in-law are engineers, so they can probably put your first idea together.  If not, I am capable of doing the second, assuming I figure out the right specs for the relay.

Thanks again.

koolmoecraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1433
  • Last login:April 05, 2014, 07:07:20 pm
    • My Intervention
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 04:30:17 am »
How is this going to work?  Unless I'm mistaken, QMame was and still is the only version that has the ability to trigger the knocker.  A regular version of MAME isn't going to do you any good.

Am I wrong?

matsadona

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 754
  • Last login:March 19, 2019, 06:13:38 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2011, 06:46:47 am »
Did anyone actually test that Mamehooker captures the output for the Q'bert knocker?

Could anyone tell in what situation Q*bert use the knocker during gameplay, since I have never played it in real life?

BTW - Personally I would go for a solid state relay, which can be found for a few dollars at ebay.
Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

drventure

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4152
  • Last login:February 01, 2019, 06:15:33 pm
  • Laser Death Ray Bargain Bin! Make me an offer!
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 07:44:43 am »
Actually, I was going to ask the same thing. Wouldn't an SSR (Solid state relay) work for this type of application?

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 07:59:07 am »
I've tested it and Mame Hooker does catch the output.  I currently have it set up to flash a button when the knocker is triggered. The knocker is triggered whenever a character falls off-screen.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 11:20:56 am »
Since I haven't worked with relays before, can anyone confirm that this relay should work?

http://www.lightobject.com/40A-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-In-DC-Out-P315.aspx

Specification
Input: 3V-32V DC
Control: 5V~60V DC
Current: 40A

On ebay I am having trouble finding DC-in and DC-out relays. Most seem to be AC-out.

I plan on using the 5V from the PC with the LED-Wiz for control, and the knocker is 30V DC.  I also have a 30V DC power supply from an old laptop power adapter.  Unfortunately I still don't know the amperage of the knocker as it hasn't arrived.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 01:35:38 pm »
The circuit I posted above with the optoisolator basically IS an SSR :)  It'll handle more current (and larger surges) than most "monolithic" PCB mount solid state relays, though.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CC1613-ND should work, assuming your solenoid is comfortably under 3A.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CC1128-ND is a monster if you're not sure of the current draw on your solenoid.  This one's good up to 7A, which is about what the circuit I posted above is good to.

The one you posted should also work.

matsadona

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 754
  • Last login:March 19, 2019, 06:13:38 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 03:37:23 pm »
Thanks for the clarification about the usage of the knocker, which of course makes sense.

I do agree that your (MonMotha) solution is as good as a bought SSR. As you say, that is in fact a SSR :) I would probably have done that, but my impression was that milhouse was looking for something more "out of the box" solution here.
One advantage with the SSR's has to be their wide range of input voltage. Mechanincal relays usually are more picky about the voltage range, which can be limiting in some applications and of course the contact wear etc as already mentionend.

I just did a random run with mamehooker to find outputs from different games... there are so many cool projects you could do know with this. I think I need to build another MAME project. Sea wolf would be cool with all thoose light flashing... :)

Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 04:03:46 pm »
Yeah, I was suggesting the other solution as it's very likely to be less costly, and my experience on here has been that people would rather do a little DIY and wire up a few parts rather than spend money, but hey, whatever is appropriate for your project.  A monolithic SSR is a good choice in this application if you want ease of assembly and don't mind paying the premium.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 04:20:29 pm »
Generally I don't mind building my own stuff, but after two years of barely hanging on in engineering school I know my limitations.  The $30 spent in this case far outweighs the headaches I would get trying to build this myself.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 11:22:29 pm »
Thanks to everyone, particularly MonMotha, for their help. Sorry the video is so dark.



And a photo:


koolmoecraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1433
  • Last login:April 05, 2014, 07:07:20 pm
    • My Intervention
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 01:52:03 am »
Awesome!

Couple of questions...

1. Does this work with any version of MAME or only the latest?

2. Can you put another one of these together and sell it to me as a "kit"?

Thanks!


milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 11:00:00 am »
I'm not really looking to build and sell, but putting it together is pretty trivial.

Requirements:
  • Q*Bert Knocker Assembly, available here, or build your own out of a pinball solenoid.
  • 30V DC Power Supply (I used one I had lying around from an old unused cable modem)
  • Solid State Relay (I used this one)
  • LedWiz or PacDrive or any output device supported by Mame Hooker
  • Mame Hooker

Run a wire off the 12V (yellow) wire from a standard PC hard drive power connector to the Input (+) connection on the Relay.  This wire should also have a 500mA fuse installed in-line.
Run a wire from the Input (-) connector to any available port on the LedWiz.
Cut the DC power supply plug off and, after checking the polarity, connect it to the Relay (+) and (-) connections.
Install Mame Hooker and run Q*Bert, jumping off the board so the knocker, in theory, triggers.
Edit the qbert.ini file generated by Mame Hooker (Knocker0 is the output) and add the appropriate code (will post later as I don't have it in front of me).

That should be it.

As for Mame, I'm not sure which version first enabled outputs.  I am running standard Mame 141.




ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 11:26:21 am »
I can't see the video at work, but from the pic, and the link to that relay, it seems you are missing a heat sink.  Or are you not worried about heat due to limited use?

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 11:52:52 am »
I can't see the video at work, but from the pic, and the link to that relay, it seems you are missing a heat sink.  Or are you not worried about heat due to limited use?

Yeah, on a good day, it gets used every 30 seconds for 10 minutes. 

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 01:45:12 pm »
He's also running it vastly below its rated capabilities, and the output is only energized for a short amount of time even when it is being used.  Conduction losses should be very low, and it's not switching fast, so switching losses are probably a non-issue, too.  It might be barely warm to the touch...  The heatsink wouldn't really do anything in that situation.

huygens

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 62
  • Last login:October 31, 2011, 01:33:08 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 04:03:06 pm »
Looking online it's hard to find a 30v supply with more than 1A current output. The coil resistance for the A-3195 is around 12ohms. so at 30v it would have a 2.5A current draw. Since this is a very intermittent-duty use would a 1A rated supply be acceptable?

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 04:51:21 pm »
Looking online it's hard to find a 30v supply with more than 1A current output. The coil resistance for the A-3195 is around 12ohms. so at 30v it would have a 2.5A current draw. Since this is a very intermittent-duty use would a 1A rated supply be acceptable?

I was having some issues setting this up and I emailed the company that sold me the relay.  Their response:
Even as low as 10mA should be good enough to trigger the SSR.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2011, 09:46:49 pm »
30V is a somewhat odd number.  28V is a standard output that's close enough to work.

Do not attempt to draw more than the rated capabilities of the supply even under short-term conditions.  Most switch mode supplies will just shut off.  On a linear supply, you'll probably blow a fuse.  Some supplies are specifically designed for low duty cycle operation, but they should indicate so.

Of course, you can probably find solenoids for this application with more "common" ratings e.g. 24V or maybe even 12V.

whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2011, 12:55:58 am »
That coil will work on 12volts, it will just be a tad bit softer.  There is a kit out there for original Q-Bert machines that switches the audio amp and knocker from 30v to 12v.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2011, 04:41:37 am »
That coil will work on 12volts, it will just be a tad bit softer.  There is a kit out there for original Q-Bert machines that switches the audio amp and knocker from 30v to 12v.

In that case, 24V is a very common voltage and probably provides plenty of "kick" if 12V isn't enough for you,

Lilwolf

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4941
  • Last login:June 24, 2019, 07:41:19 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2011, 05:36:57 am »
does mamehooker hook up to the keyboard leds?  you might be able to do it on the cheap.  I have most of the parts, but qbert isnt' my game.


ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 09:41:57 am »
MonMotha - you are quite right about paying a premium for a SSR vs DIY.  I have 4 each of the Darlington, MOSFET, diode and opto-isolator you have spec'd in my DigiKey cart, and combined they are less than half the price of the cheaper SSR you have linked eaerlier.  At this rate, I could build 8+ SSRs for the price of one, with plenty of spare parts to boot.

Now I have a question.

I ordered the pinball knocker linked earlier: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=675&parent=0  (and knocker plate)
All my googling so far point to this thing being fed 50V

I'm all set to build MonMotha circuit 2 (w/ opto-isolator and Darlington)

What I don't know is how much current is required to drive the knocker.  It sounds like I could possibly feed it a lower voltage.  Either way, what sort of power supply would be optimal, what would be acceptable?  (I would prefer a loud knocking)

Also - any recommendations for a heat-sink?  Or can I leave it, since this is not going to see a lot of usage?

Thanks everyone for all the great info!

whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2011, 10:05:35 am »
Original Q-Bert machine uses a 1amp slo blo fuse for the solenoid.  Runs on 30 volts but there are mods to lower the voltage to 28v or even 12v.  (The audio amp is pushed too hard at 30volts, hence the mods)  Original Q-Bert board does not have a heat sink on the driver transistor.  No need for 50v here.  That is a more typical voltage in a pinball machine where the solenoids need to move heavy metal ball bearings (pinballs) around.

koolmoecraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1433
  • Last login:April 05, 2014, 07:07:20 pm
    • My Intervention
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2011, 06:37:16 am »
I'm not really looking to build and sell, but putting it together is pretty trivial.

Requirements:
  • Q*Bert Knocker Assembly, available here, or build your own out of a pinball solenoid.
  • 30V DC Power Supply (I used one I had lying around from an old unused cable modem)
  • Solid State Relay (I used this one)
  • LedWiz or PacDrive or any output device supported by Mame Hooker
  • Mame Hooker

Run a wire off the 12V (yellow) wire from a standard PC hard drive power connector to the Input (+) connection on the Relay.  This wire should also have a 500mA fuse installed in-line.
Run a wire from the Input (-) connector to any available port on the LedWiz.
Cut the DC power supply plug off and, after checking the polarity, connect it to the Relay (+) and (-) connections.
Install Mame Hooker and run Q*Bert, jumping off the board so the knocker, in theory, triggers.
Edit the qbert.ini file generated by Mame Hooker (Knocker0 is the output) and add the appropriate code (will post later as I don't have it in front of me).

Am I blind or did you leave out where to hook up the solenoid? Sorry, it's 4am.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2011, 02:22:36 am »
If you need a 24V supply, Marlin P Jones & Assoc. is currently running a sale.  Item # 18235-PS is a 24V/2.5A SMPS for only $12.95.  www.mpja.com

ids: Note that milhouse did post a link to a large SSR for a reasonable (though still higher than the cost of the components in my circuit) price earlier in the thread.  Digi-Key is not usually the cheapest place to get that sort of thing, though they are reliable.  Likewise, you can probably also find the components for my circuit cheaper elsewhere (feel free to sub the opto and the darlington for comparable parts).

Do not forget the diode across the coil (anode to the grounded side, cathode to the supply side) to prevent damage to the transistor.  1N400x series should be fine.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 02:27:08 am by MonMotha »

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2011, 07:45:50 am »
I'm not really looking to build and sell, but putting it together is pretty trivial.

Requirements:
  • Q*Bert Knocker Assembly, available here, or build your own out of a pinball solenoid.
  • 30V DC Power Supply (I used one I had lying around from an old unused cable modem)
  • Solid State Relay (I used this one)
  • LedWiz or PacDrive or any output device supported by Mame Hooker
  • Mame Hooker

Run a wire off the 12V (yellow) wire from a standard PC hard drive power connector to the Input (+) connection on the Relay.  This wire should also have a 500mA fuse installed in-line.
Run a wire from the Input (-) connector to any available port on the LedWiz.
Cut the DC power supply plug off and, after checking the polarity, connect it to the Relay (+) and (-) connections.
Install Mame Hooker and run Q*Bert, jumping off the board so the knocker, in theory, triggers.
Edit the qbert.ini file generated by Mame Hooker (Knocker0 is the output) and add the appropriate code (will post later as I don't have it in front of me).

Am I blind or did you leave out where to hook up the solenoid? Sorry, it's 4am.

Not blind.  Should be:
Cut the DC power supply plug off and, after checking the polarity, connect DC (-) it to the Relay (-) connection and DC (+) Solenoid (+) (the line with the solenoid in-line fuse).  Connect the Solenoid (-) to the Relay (+).  The + path of the DC power should go 1. into Solenoid (+) (fuse) line; 2. out of Solenoid (-) to Relay (+); 3. Relay (-) back to DC Power.


ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2011, 01:24:17 pm »
MonMotha - I did see the link for the cheaper SSR, but shipping it to Canada gets expensive.  The DigiKey parts, plus shipping, still works out much better (threw in some other odds'n'ends since shipping is a flat $8 either way).  Your comment about subbing for comparable parts seems to assume I have some inkling of what I am doing - sorry, haven't a damn clue.  I'm just following your schematic, and hoping not to injure myself or burn the house down.  ;D

I've recreated the schematic, adding a fuse where I'm guessing it belongs, the diode across the solenoid (as mentioned), and changed voltage to 28.  Validation would be hugely appreciated.

I'm going to check some local shops for power supplies.  Otherwise, I'll see what MPJA offers for shipping up this way - thanks for the link.



afaik, the voltage for the fuse is not very important, so long as it is greater than the supply - is that right?  e.g. I can use a 120/240VDC fuse, no problem?

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2011, 01:59:52 pm »
Your schematic looks good.  I'd change the notation on the GND (-28V) node, as that may imply that it's an actually -28V node (and the supply is +28V).  That ground is "the ground from the 28V power supply", which I think you've got down, but the schematic may be a bit misleading for anyone who sees it in the future.  I see that you also corrected the pin numbering on my optoisolator :)

Yes, the voltage on the fuse is relatively unimportant as long as it's higher than what you're working with.  Somewhat like capacitors, the voltage rating on the fuse is a "most it can handle" type thing.

It may be necessary to decrease R3 some for reliable operation.  You can go all the way down to 100 ohms if necessary.

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2011, 04:04:30 pm »
Thanks a lot for the feed back - diagram updated.  Prior post should show new schematic (refresh your browser if not).

I found a 24V/1.6?A supply nearby (didn't change diagram to reflect it, however).  Hopefully that will be enough to power the coil.  Got some 120V/1A fuses.  And, my DigiKey order has arrived.  You'll know when the knocker arrives as I'll be unable to post updates from the hospital ;D

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2011, 04:17:28 pm »
One more (last?) thing.  I googled to see what gauge wire is good for the 24V/1A supply.  First relevant link was this: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html

About mid-way down, is the Copper wire resistance table.  If I'm reading that right, then 24 gauge should be enough.  Fortunately I have a lot of that handy (or is it 22 that I have?  I'm good either way).  I'm thinking this table is the right one, as house wire is typically 14gauge for a 15 amp line and 12 gauge for 20A, which matches this table perfectly.

Thanks again everyone for all the info!

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2011, 09:00:20 pm »
Typical rule of thumb for arcade applications is that you should use 22AWG for signals and 18AWG for power.

In this case, 22AWG should be fine, especially if your runs aren't more than a few feet, but it never hurts to use something larger (note: lower AWG numbers are larger wire).  I don't know that I'd use 24, simply because it's so small it can break easily when subject to vibration and rough handling (like, say, a knocker firing all the time), but it shouldn't be a big problem electrically.

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2011, 12:28:09 pm »
Sorry - one more question: for the resistors, what Wattage?  I realize I've been stuffing in the ones I use for LED's (1/4 Watt) - they are probably not going to cut it, especially on the coil side of the circuit (but what the hell do I know?)

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2011, 03:47:43 pm »
The only resistor that sees any power is appreciable R1.  It'll actually burn about 1.5W when it's on with the 500 ohm value shown currently.  Rule of thumb is to double the actual power in the resistor to get the rating, but given the low duty cycle, you'll probably do fine with a 2W.

You can increase it substantially to bring this power down, but going too far will leave the transistor in the linear region and blow it up :)  I erred on the very conservative side making sure the transistor would be "very on" not knowing what the knocker current (amperage) was originally.  If the knocker is only about 2A or less (which it sounds like it is), you can very safely bump R1 up to a 2.7k resistor.  At 2.7k, R1 will burn a little over a quarter watt, so use a half watt resistor.

R2 and R3 can be quarter watt.  100 ohms is a little low for R3 (and puts it right at 1/4W), but it should be fine.  I'd probably make it closer to 270 ohms.  That's about right given the 2.7k above and a ~1:1 optoisolator.  R2 can stay 10k in any case.

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2011, 04:46:27 pm »
Sorry to OP for hijacking thread - I really want a Q*Bert knocker too  :cheers:

Many thanks again to MonMotha - if I got it all straight, the following is the final diagram (also added B/C/E labels on Q1).  Hopefully others will find this useful.



At this point, I have most of it laid out on a breadboard.  When I get the solenoid and a few new resistors, I'll be able to test and then solder up the final circuit.

Thanks.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2011, 05:19:11 pm »
As promised, here is the code I use in mamehooker:
Code: [Select]
[General]
MameStart=
MameStop=
StateChange=
[Output]
Orientation(\\.\DISPLAY1)=
knocker0=lwp 1 16 100,lws 1 16 1,wat 5000,lws 1 16 0

The knocker is on LedWiz-1 connected to Port 16.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2011, 05:35:32 pm »
Looks good to me.  Again, you may need a heatsink on the transistor.  Depends on how long you use it and long it's on vs. off (the so-called "duty cycle").  Radio Shack sells, or at least used to sell, various TO-220 heatsinks.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=HS112-ND or similar is a decent option.  I think Allied Electronics may sell these, too, and probably at a lower cost.

whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2011, 05:59:06 pm »
Here's a page with a mame q-bert knocker.
Don't know why he took it off his site, or maybe it just moved.  Anyway, found in with the wayback machine.
http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080916190048/http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2011, 07:53:02 pm »
The circuit in the above link assumes your control output can source current and is a good option if that's the case.  The LED-Wiz and similar devices can only sink current, so the NPN low-side switch is not an option, necessitating the use of the PNP high-side switch discussed earlier in the thread.  The cap across the transistor is something of a snubber device and, while probably not mandatory, isn't a bad idea in either case.

(Of course, there are a million ways to do this)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:01:01 pm by MonMotha »

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2011, 09:03:33 pm »
Fuse blew after a few test runs.  I'm actually using a 36V supply (DMM says 36.3V) rated at 1.7A (the supply i mentioned earlier turned out to be a dud).

So I'm stumped.  Set DMM to measure Amps, and bypass fuse - not sure how much the rest of the circuit could handle, so I've keeping it on only for very brief moments (less than a second).  The DMM takes time to catch up, it seems, but I saw it go as high as 1.4A.

I'm guessing a resistor could be used to limit current here - but what is the criteria for choosing one?  Or is there a better solution?

Some pics...

Circuit (diode not visible, but it's there)


Solenoid (also has a diode, kinda redundant i think, but safe)


Power supply - 36V, 1.7A - I think it was for a printer or something, dont care, was cheap



whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2011, 10:43:21 pm »
You would need a 1 amp slo blo fuse for 30v supply.  Not sure if that would change for higher voltage.  Note the slo blo (time delay).  It is important.  A regular fuse at 1 amp will blow.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2011, 11:31:23 pm »
Yes.  The coil will initially spike at several amps.  A normal "quick" fuse will blow.  You want a time delay or slow blow fuse.  Also probably a good idea to drop that supply to a 28 or 24V.  36V will just raise the spike even higher and may even run out of the range of what the transistor can handle without biting it.

milhouse

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Last login:April 30, 2019, 03:28:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2011, 11:36:23 pm »
I can confirm that a 1A fuse will blow.  I went through 4 or 5 until I switched to a slowburn which has now lasted over a week with daily use.  It even survives LedBlinky's startup animation which causes it to fire 3 times in rapid succession.

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2011, 08:35:56 am »
Thank everyone.  I do have slow-blow fuses.  I should have mentioned how I am testing - it's by hand, not via LED-Wiz.  It seems that if I connect it very briefly, it's ok.  A bit longer and the fuse blows.  A bit longer than that (and without the fuse) and the power supply itself shuts down (unplugging it seems to reset it).  So I am wondering if this will be an issue once it's driven from the LED-Wiz, which should be providing a very brief "on" time.  Alternatively, perhaps a resistor to control current flow?

Thanks

whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2011, 10:18:22 am »
Maybe just get a proper supply instead.
I have tested with this and it is inexpensive and effective:
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17186+PS

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2011, 12:19:46 pm »
MPJA wants too much coin to ship to Canada, but I did have that exact unit in my cart for a while.  Was your testing via an LED-Wiz (or equivalent), or by hand, as was mine?  It seems that a very quick "on" time is not a problem, so a pulsed signal from some controller is probably fine, and will always be fine.  I used a 5V wall wart to trigger the circuit; +5V screwed in, and touching the Ground/Negative to the appropriate terminal (on the green screw-terminals in my picture above).  The longer I held it, the more problematic it became.  I was hoping for a more technical/electrical discussion/solution - as electronics is not my strong point.  From my standpoint of ignorance, and the fact that the coil is showing me only 4ohms of resistance, it would seem that a fair bit of current could be drawn here.  If Ohms law applies, 36V/4Ohms = 9A, and the linked power supply: 28V/4Ohms = 7A.  Looking at the schematic (see above), I would assume the only other resistance, apart from negligible amounts from the wiring, in terms of driving the coil, could possibly come from the Darlington.  However, reading the spec sheet for that (http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI/TIP105.pdf) I see "high DC current gain".  While it does show resistors as part of its internal circuitry, it does not list any value with Ohms elsewhere in the spec, so I'd assume, given this and the statement "high DC current gain," that if anything, it's more like anti-resistance (I'm sure people in the know are laughing at me now :-[ ).

I believe this circuit, as conceived by MonMotha, can handle a good deal of Volts and Amps, however, this thread also contains notes of using a 1A slow blow fuse.  I'm just trying to get my head around how this all comes together - and perhaps if being driving by a quick pulse from a controller is all I need to resolve this.


Thanks.

whammoed

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2284
  • Last login:September 14, 2019, 02:12:13 pm
  • Crack don't smoke itself
    • NiceMite
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2011, 12:33:05 pm »
I played around with it both manually and by triggering it with MAME and the parallel port.  It took at least several seconds manually triggering for the 1amp slow blow to go.  I'll take a measurement of the knocker coil I have tonight.  It's an actual Q-Bert knocker.
Might be better to use a different coil than to find the right resistance and wattage resistor if you keep having trouble, but it will probably be ok once you put in the slow blow fuse.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2011, 09:32:12 pm »
The circuit you build should be good to about 7 amps, though the transistor will get quite warm if you leave it on all the time and probably needs a heatsink.

Ohm's law doesn't perfectly apply to this situation.  The coil is very inductive.  This means that quick on/off pulses won't have a chance to ramp the current all the way up to the 7A+ that you calculate using ohm's law, but in "steady state" operation (i.e. leaving it on for a long time), the only thing to limit the DC current is indeed the coil's resistance, so it'll eventually get up there.  Short pulses may only see an amp or two, which is why a slow-blow 1A fuse is about right.

There is also an initial spike due to the secondary capacitance of the coil, and that's even harder to model, but it's also fortunately not likely to be a big deal as it's a fairly minor effect.  Again, the slow-blow fuse is appropriate.

You don't want to size the fuse all the way up to the 7A because the coil itself probably can't take that for very long.  It will get quite warm and may melt the enamel insulation off the wire that forms the coil resulting in an internal short.  If the coil accidentally gets left on for more than a little bit, you WANT the fuse to blow to protect the coil, transistor, and power supply.

I would recommend reducing your supply voltage down to about 24-30V and stick with a 1A slow blow fuse.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17682
  • Last login:Today at 02:19:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2011, 01:07:03 pm »
Sorry for not chiming in  (I don't check the main forum as much).  Somebody brought this thread to my attention.

Your script command is slightly incorrect....

"knocker0=lwp 1 16 100,lws 1 16 1,wat 5000,lws 1 16 0"  Will fire the knocker if it is on OR off.  It fires when the game starts up yes?  Not supposed to do that.  ;)

If you need the wait command to get the knocker actiavtion just right you need to tell mamehooker to do nothing when the state is off... so use a vertical bar to divide and states and a nll command for state 0 (first slot)

something like this:

knocker0=nll |lwp 1 16 100,lws 1 16 1,wat 5000,lws 1 16 0


HOWEVER

My guess is that if you set it up properly this won't be needed.

Let's use the vertical bar to ix it
It should probably look like this:

knocker0=lwp 1 16 0,lws 1 16 0|lwp 1 16 100,lws 1 16 1

I'll be honest though.... I don't have a clue why you are messing with the lwp command AND the state command.  The way ledwizzes work when you set the power level to anything other than 0 the state is automatically turned on.  But I don't know how the ledwiz handles relays, so you might know best.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17682
  • Last login:Today at 02:19:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2011, 01:12:18 pm »
Btw... as for your circuit... the fuse is the redundant (and useless) part.  The diode is absolutely necessary and is what will save your device. 

That much current going into a pc will instantly fry it and fuses, due to their analog nature, don't blow quick enough to prevent that.  The diode will take care of the back-flow voltage though and that's a more constant danger.


ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2011, 01:18:34 pm »

just before I could hit post, Howard responds...oh well, I went through the trouble of typing this, I may as well post it:


I finally got around to installing the knocker and  MameHooker, then did a quick lookup for this thread, and in particular, this entry:

As promised, here is the code I use in mamehooker:
Code: [Select]
[General]
MameStart=
MameStop=
StateChange=
[Output]
Orientation(\\.\DISPLAY1)=
knocker0=lwp 1 16 100,lws 1 16 1,wat 5000,lws 1 16 0

The knocker is on LedWiz-1 connected to Port 16.


I tried this and found it doesn't work as I expected.  Different versions?  Anyway, what I've learned:
  • The last value for "lwp" should be <= 48 for most uses, tho 100 seems to work anyway
  • The comma separated list of commands is sent each time state is changed, so it runs twice; when Mame turns on the knocker, and again when Mame turns it off.
  • The 5s wait seems kinda long to leave the solenoid on for, but ymmv

I got a lot of great help from "Howard_Casto" - a much simpler entry (last line of your file) would be:
Code: [Select]
knocker0=lws 1 16 %s%
The "%s%" will be replaced by the state sent from Mame - so in the case of the Q*Bert knocker, it will run twice in quick succession, turning it on, then off.

One more small point for anyone else trying MameHooker for the first time  -- each time you run Mame with a new game, MameHooker will create a game specific ini file in it's ini directory.  If you want to set this up and haven't yet run Mame + MameHooker + the rom (e.g. qbert) - simply create a file in the ini dir called, for e.g., "qbert.ini" to hold this info, for e.g.
Code: [Select]
[General]
MameStart=
MameStop=
StateChange=
[Output]
Orientation(\\.\DISPLAY1)=
knocker0=lws 1 16 %s%

Replace the "16" with the LED-Wiz pin number you wish to control.


fwiw, in my circuit, the fuse is really protecting the knocker and the power supply for it - these are isolated from the PC via the opto-coupler - thankfully, as I accidentally left that pin high on the LEDWiz recently; fried the fuse rather than my PC/LEDWiz.


MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2011, 08:59:29 pm »
Btw... as for your circuit... the fuse is the redundant (and useless) part.  The diode is absolutely necessary and is what will save your device.  

That much current going into a pc will instantly fry it and fuses, due to their analog nature, don't blow quick enough to prevent that.  The diode will take care of the back-flow voltage though and that's a more constant danger.

The diode is there to protect the switching transistor from the inductive voltage spike and is generally required, yes, though omitting it will just (possibly substantially) shorten the lifespan of the big transistor.

The fuse is there to prevent a FIRE due to overheating of various things (power supply, solenoid, etc.) if something goes wrong.  Depending on your power supply it may or may not be strictly necessary.  I wouldn't take such chances over a dollar worth of parts that are so easy to install.

The fuse is also likely to prevent damage to the solenoid due to overheating (which may or may not be enough to catch it on fire) if you were to accidentally hold it on for a long time.

Given that there's an optoisolator between the power side and the signal side, I don't think there's any worry whatsoever about damage to the PC.  If you've got enough potential to break down the isolation gap on those things (easily good to a kV or so),  you've got bigger problems.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:02:34 pm by MonMotha »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17682
  • Last login:Today at 02:19:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2011, 08:25:42 pm »
Well if a solenoid is activaed with the proper voltage/amperage it should be able to stay on indefinately without fear of overheating or fire.  This is why you don't have to worry about your washing machine catching fire even though a solenoid value is held on for several minutes while it fills with water. ;)

I'm a big fan of redundancy, so I would probably use a fuse as well... couldn't hurt, my comment was in response to you downplaying the diode, which in imho is the most important part.  Seriously which would you rather damage?  A hacked laptop powersupply and a crappy old solenoid or your 40 dollar ledwiz and potentially your usb port and entire pc?

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2011, 09:57:52 pm »
afaik, solenoids have rated duty cycles and max. on times to avoid overheating and other problems (some can be always on).  I had assumed that the valve types, as you mention (and like the one I recently replaced in my dish washer) are designed for the duty cycles and on-times they receive..  However, a qbert (pinball) knocker is activated for very, very brief moments, and not very often.  Such a device is not necessarily designed to remain on very long.  Also, as I understand things, a solenoid will offer very little resistance after the inductance settles, and so controlling current (amps) can be an issue.

Here's an example of several duty rated solenoids: http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Pontiac Coil Inc PDFs/M-22.pdf

Note in the linked spec sheet the Pulse rated one says On for 100ms, Off for 900ms.  I'm assuming you'll run into problems if you push it a lot harder than that - even with proper voltage, etc.  It's just a property of its construction.

Of course, a fuse, whether redundant or not, is always good.  I've blown several, so it's been good having it there to protect other components.  I'm blowing it partly because I don't have specs for the solenoid, and mostly because don't know what the hell I'm doing :)  Afaik, this thing is used in pinball tables at higher voltages than I'm feeding it, so maybe it's just meant to eat more current than I'm allowing for or...?  Anyway, it's been running fine for a while, thanks to many people who've contributed to this thread, MonMotha, MameHooker, etc.

also - the diode on the solenoid is a must, regardless - I think we're all agreeing on that.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2011, 04:16:10 am »
Well if a solenoid is activaed with the proper voltage/amperage it should be able to stay on indefinately without fear of overheating or fire.  This is why you don't have to worry about your washing machine catching fire even though a solenoid value is held on for several minutes while it fills with water. ;)

I'm a big fan of redundancy, so I would probably use a fuse as well... couldn't hurt, my comment was in response to you downplaying the diode, which in imho is the most important part.  Seriously which would you rather damage?  A hacked laptop powersupply and a crappy old solenoid or your 40 dollar ledwiz and potentially your usb port and entire pc?

While some solenoids are built to be continuously energized such as those used for failsafes to close valves and such, I wouldn't think a pinball solenoid would be rated for 100% duty cycle.  Given the steady state current draw on the thing (~7A calculated, though it might saturate lower than that depending on construction) and the fairly small wire it appears to be using, I'd suspect that the enamel would eventually melt causing shorts and increasing the current draw further (and rendering the thing useless).  Now, if your supply is reasonably sized and will shut down above a couple amps, you're probably fine, but if you've got a biggun, you might have problems.  The transistor is also not heatsinked, and, while it can handle 7A or so, it'll get pretty toasty after a while with no heatsink.  Would it catch fire?  Probably not, but I haven't done a thermal analysis on it and don't care to, so I'll pay the dollar for the fuse.

As to the lack of diode, as I suspected, there's already one on the solenoid, so it is effectively redundant.  However, even without it, the transistor specified has an antiparallel diode which will cause any kickback to be clamped pretty close to the positive rail.  Since that's well within the breakdown limit of the transistor, it'll probably be fine, which is where my downplay came from.  Now, how much your supply will appreciate it is another story...  Like the fuse, it certainly doesn't hurt to have it, and not all power transistors have it at all, so I'd recommend it always be installed.

Again, with this build, it's virtually impossible to damage anything on the "left" side of the optoisolator.  Breaking down that thing in a manner that allows any appreciable current flow would be a pretty impressive achievement, so my focus as far as protection goes would generally be on the power side.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6254
  • Last login:September 17, 2019, 04:04:19 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2011, 01:15:37 pm »
While some solenoids are built to be continuously energized such as those used for failsafes to close valves and such, I wouldn't think a pinball solenoid would be rated for 100% duty cycle. 

While mostly unrelated to the discussion, some pinball solenoids, such as those on the flippers, get full power only on the leading edge of activation.  This allows for a good, strong hit of the ball, but also allows the player to "hold" the ball almost indefinitely, without burning up the solenoid, by cutting the voltage to about half of the initial pulse.  This approach is a good one for any solenoid that needs strength to activate, but not much just to hold it in place.

Regardless, I agree that fuses are always a good idea where larger currents are concerned.  I have seen a situation in my own pinball machine where the flipper solenoid and wire insulation melted, due to the failure of a component responsible for the approach I just mentioned.

Dudeman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 229
  • Last login:October 19, 2017, 10:05:13 am
  • Ecky ecky ecky ecky P'Tang! Zoop-boing mmmzoesm...
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2011, 07:13:11 pm »



What changes would I have to make for this to work off 1.9VDC for the control voltage? I want to try and make this work off the NumLock LED.

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2011, 07:55:14 pm »
You've quoted me but I think we need someone like MonMotha to answer, as I really dont know enough to provide an answer with any confidence.  While I do have a working qbert knocker, thanks to MonMotha, MameHooker and its author, and others, I am far from knowledge about electronics - I know just enough to be dangerous.  I suspect there are chips or relays that might activate with such low voltage, but this is all beyond me.  Hopefully someone who really knows this stuff can help.

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2011, 06:52:45 am »



What changes would I have to make for this to work off 1.9VDC for the control voltage? I want to try and make this work off the NumLock LED.

Decrease R3 to ~27 ohms and use an LTV-815 instead of an LTV-816.  If you've already got a current limiting resistor (i.e. what you have has been designed to directly drive a bare LED), then omit R3 entirely.  Everything else should be able to stay the same.

If you are trying to hook up an existing LED output that already has an LED on it, be aware that won't work right since that's a current limited source.  If you remove the existing LED and substitute instead the LTV-815's input LED, that should work.

Dudeman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 229
  • Last login:October 19, 2017, 10:05:13 am
  • Ecky ecky ecky ecky P'Tang! Zoop-boing mmmzoesm...
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2011, 10:08:12 am »
Decrease R3 to ~27 ohms and use an LTV-815 instead of an LTV-816.  If you've already got a current limiting resistor (i.e. what you have has been designed to directly drive a bare LED), then omit R3 entirely.  Everything else should be able to stay the same.

If you are trying to hook up an existing LED output that already has an LED on it, be aware that won't work right since that's a current limited source.  If you remove the existing LED and substitute instead the LTV-815's input LED, that should work.

You, sir... are my hero.

koolmoecraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1433
  • Last login:April 05, 2014, 07:07:20 pm
    • My Intervention
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2012, 02:52:50 am »
Bringing this back from the dead a bit.....

I can run both the control voltage and the input voltage off of the same 12v source from the PC power supply, right?

Thanks!

MonMotha

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2378
  • Last login:February 19, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2012, 03:38:47 am »
Bringing this back from the dead a bit.....

I can run both the control voltage and the input voltage off of the same 12v source from the PC power supply, right?

Thanks!

You're using an SSR I take it?

You certainly can do so if your SSR is rated for 12V control (most are).

ids

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Last login:June 28, 2019, 01:08:16 pm
  • Fighter Captured
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2013, 02:30:02 pm »
Apologies for reviving such an old thread....

When I boot, this knocker goes off three times (really annoying).  I do not think it's the LEDWiz causing it, as there are no other indicators that the LEDWiz is turning anything on.  For example, no LED's flash.  This is well before Windoze is fully booted, and long before any opening animation sequence.  The first knock is during POST or thereabouts, the other two are early in windoze boot.  If it were just a single knock, I'd assume some sort of instability as the circuit is first powered up.  But three knocks?  It also knocks on power-down - but just once in that case.  IIRC, I did probe the LEDWiz output with a meter and saw nothing - though a very quick spike would go unnoticed.

Any advice/suggestions?  I do have a multimeter and scope I could apply if it will help.

mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Last login:July 17, 2019, 11:44:57 am
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2013, 10:10:35 am »
subscribed.

AJ

Bad_Bard

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Last login:August 03, 2014, 01:02:50 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2014, 01:02:37 pm »
Nice work guys!  I did this many years ago by building a custom version of MAME and using the IPAC LED interface to trigger the knocker. 

Shouldn't the Q*BERT or Coily AHHHHHHH sound cut off immediately when the knocker is triggered?  That is another modification I did to MAME and it gives a much better effect.  I'm pretty sure this is how the original Q*BERT machine works also.

Bad_Bard

mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Last login:July 17, 2019, 11:44:57 am
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2014, 01:54:49 pm »
RIZE ZOMBIE THREAD! 

I'd be interested in some pics and video of getting this to work.

AJ

2084

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52
  • Last login:February 17, 2019, 07:36:50 pm
  • I'm interested in the classic games of the 80s
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2014, 06:02:36 pm »
I recently used the information in this threat to build a Q*bert with a knocker using a Raspberry Pi using GPIO pins by making a few minor mods to the advmame code.  I'm very happy with the results.  Thanks for the information in this tread.

bleargh

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 359
  • Last login:Yesterday at 04:54:16 pm
  • ribbit...
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2014, 07:42:51 pm »
Aw man.... and here I was, thinking that with a subject like that, that there'd at least be something NSFW in here...  :dunno

cnsf

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 37
  • Last login:November 06, 2017, 12:45:48 pm
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2015, 08:19:53 pm »
Bumping this thread. 

I documented my experience with designing and putting in a Q*bert knocker in my MAME cabinet. 

I hope it is helpful. 

http://www.notrica.com

vwalbridge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2079
  • Last login:March 29, 2019, 12:10:53 pm
  • Don't half-ass two things, whole-ass one thing.
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2015, 05:07:32 pm »
Quote
I hope it is helpful. 

It sure was! Thanks cnsf!  I have read through this thread several times and was still a bit confused. Then I was alerted of your post and it totally cleared things up for me. Finally someone showed the entire setup in one full picture. I plan on building a Qbert cab and this will certainly do the trick! Thanks again.
If you can read this, it means Photobucket's money grab ruined my signature photos.

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2016, 05:37:37 pm »
Bringing this back from the dead a bit.....

I can run both the control voltage and the input voltage off of the same 12v source from the PC power supply, right?

Thanks!

You're using an SSR I take it?

You certainly can do so if your SSR is rated for 12V control (most are).

I'm going to be doing pretty much the same thing (if I understand correctly).  Just hoping someone can confirm I'm not missing anything.

For hardware, I will be using a standard power supply providing 12V to this knocker assembly

http://v2.globalwebcart.com/arcadeshop/i/1125/q-bert-knocker-assembly-with-12v-coil.htm

Also, I'll be controlling with a Pac-Drive output with the default 5V output (no external PS).

I'll also be purchasing the SSR mentioned earlier (although I'd like to find a cheaper one).

What is confusing me a bit is the quoted post about the control voltage of 12V from the power supply.
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2019, 03:21:37 pm »
Thread necro as I actually have the parts and time to do this now.    :applaud:

Based on re-reading this thread multiple times, I can't tell if I'll be able to drive the relay with the PacDrive.  It can dish out 500ma and milhouse had mentioned putting a 500ma fuse inline w/ his control voltage (12v and LEDWiz, I'm trying to use the built in 5V of the PacDrive).  In a later post he mentioned a 1A slow blo.  Just wondering if I'm confusing 2 different fuses, or if the 500ma wasn't sufficient and the 1A slo blo was needed.

And another thing I am confused about.  For some reason I thought in Q-bert the knocker actually banged against the cab.  The solenoid I picked up has a metal harness with rubber on one end where the metal bolt thing hits.  milhouse's build seemed to keep that in tact and it seems to work/sound fine.  What is actually going to hit what?  Metal on metal, or metal on rubber?

I am also unsure which terminal on the solenoid is +/-.  There is a diode across it and I saw this mentioned earlier in the thread

"Do not forget the diode across the coil (anode to the grounded side, cathode to the supply side) to prevent damage to the transistor."

Just want to verify that before wiring it up as I thought that the Anode was V+ and Cathode was V-.  Although if this is to prevent some kind of back voltage, it would make sense that it would be the opposite.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 03:29:34 pm by telengard »
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

Robbbert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • Last login:September 13, 2019, 03:21:36 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2019, 12:02:07 am »
You *must* have a diode across the solenoid or relay, whichever one is connected to a solid-state device (transistor, etc).

The relay or solenoid itself has no polarity, but the diode is connected in reverse. Its purpose is to short the reverse voltage spike that comes out of a coil (solenoid/relay) when it is switched off. Otherwise the controlling transistor/device can be destroyed.

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2019, 11:04:53 am »
You *must* have a diode across the solenoid or relay, whichever one is connected to a solid-state device (transistor, etc).

The relay or solenoid itself has no polarity, but the diode is connected in reverse. Its purpose is to short the reverse voltage spike that comes out of a coil (solenoid/relay) when it is switched off. Otherwise the controlling transistor/device can be destroyed.

Thanks for the info.  There already is a diode across the solenoid so I think I'm good there.  Any thoughts on the knocker itself.  It seems like it will be metal hitting metal.  For some reason I thought the QBert knocker hit the side of the cabinet.
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

Robbbert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • Last login:September 13, 2019, 03:21:36 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2019, 05:56:17 pm »
I've never actually seen exactly how a knocker works, but...

Thinking of the sound in a EM pinball machine, it would indeed be hitting the cabinet. It would be a loud "bonk!", not some tinny metallic sound.

Gottlieb loved their old EM technology, so it makes sense that the Qbert knocker would be the same part, working in the same way. Not that I've ever actually seen the insides of a Qbert though.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 05:03:36 am by Robbbert »

PL1

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7394
  • Last login:Today at 10:48:44 am
  • Designated spam hunter
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2019, 01:06:08 am »
Any thoughts on the knocker itself.  It seems like it will be metal hitting metal.  For some reason I thought the QBert knocker hit the side of the cabinet.
The solenoid hits the metal frame that is mounted to the back of the wooden coin box.

Manual:
Code: [Select]
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/ARCADE/K-R/Q-Bert%20(Scan%202)%20[Instructions]%20[English].pdf
The manual (pg 40, index 14) doesn't show the metal frame and mount location very clearly, but these videos do.   ;D






Scott

Robbbert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • Last login:September 13, 2019, 03:21:36 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2019, 05:03:03 am »
Yes, those videos make it very clear what happens. I can only surmise that the metal bracket being at the mounting point will transmit the shock to the cabinet.

The sound of the knocker in those videos is not very loud though. On EM pinball machines the knocker was loud enough to be heard for some distance around, it was loud enough to cause fright if you weren't expecting it.

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2019, 02:49:57 pm »
Yes, those videos make it very clear what happens. I can only surmise that the metal bracket being at the mounting point will transmit the shock to the cabinet.

The sound of the knocker in those videos is not very loud though. On EM pinball machines the knocker was loud enough to be heard for some distance around, it was loud enough to cause fright if you weren't expecting it.

Agree, on some tables, like my BK2000... it's really startling when it hits.

Thanks for the info everyone, I've made some great progress, working on getting Mamehooker and the PacDrive talking.
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2019, 09:50:00 pm »
So close to having this done.  I have mamehooker (thanks Howard!), pacdrive, and SS relay working fine, also have the solenoid firing when q-bert jumps off.

However, it is very faint, and after one click I blow the fuse.

I have a 12V solenoid and a 12V supply that can give up to 2A, and I believe have it connected as I've seen done in a few examples (including the one here):

12V+ goes to positive terminal of the solenoid.  I have a 1A slow blow inline with this connection
12V- goes to the negative terminal of the relay output
The negative terminal of the solenoid goes to the positive terminal of the relay output

What am I doing wrong.  :)   :banghead:
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17682
  • Last login:Today at 02:19:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2019, 01:49:19 am »
So you have a 1 amp fuse for a 2 amp power supply?  If your solenoid draws anything more than 1 amp it's going to blow.

Titchgamer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3399
  • Last login:Today at 09:55:30 am
  • I have a gaming addiction.....
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2019, 02:57:38 am »
If its blowing the fuse its pulling to much current.

What is the current draw of the solenoid?

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2019, 02:42:05 pm »
I was using the 1A slow blo based on the builds of others previously in this thread.  I think earlier it was mentioned a 1.8A 30V supply was being used for a coil w/ 12ohms of resistance.

Poking around online it seems the coil I have is is 4.5 ohms (I measured 4.3).

http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1125/q-bert-knocker-assembly-with-12v-coil.htm

So that would be a current of ~2.7A.  Reading through this thread though, it doesn't seem that ohm's law totally applies if I understand correctly.

What would make sense to do here?  I can up the amperage of the fuse to 2A, but it seems depending on the duration the voltage is applied could also blow.
I will probably have to modify my mamehooker settings to lower the amount of time the signal goes high before going off.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 02:45:25 pm by telengard »
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17682
  • Last login:Today at 02:19:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2019, 02:46:57 pm »
Up it to 3 amps.  Worst case scenario your wires might get a little hot, but since qbert only fires the solenoid once and for a split second, I find that unlikely.  Your fuse is mostly in case something screws up and the solenoid gets stuck in the on position. 

Titchgamer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3399
  • Last login:Today at 09:55:30 am
  • I have a gaming addiction.....
Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2019, 02:51:09 pm »
Like howard says use a 3A supply and maybe try fitting a 2A or 2.5A slow blow fuse.

Depending on your cable size you may want to up that to.

It should not blow the fuse at .7A over

telengard

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 761
  • Last login:August 28, 2019, 03:50:24 pm
  • Yeah, it's a classic! 17+ on BYOAC and still goin
    • S T U R C A D E
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2019, 04:55:22 pm »
I have it all working now!  3 things I had to do were to lower the amount of time Mamehooker was energizing the coil, and secondly I had the polarity backwards with respect to the coil diode.  I was following positive/anode, but in this case, you are trying to prevent back current so you want it wired backwards.  Lastly, I was testing with the solenoid laying flat on the wood I mounted it on, it needs to be vertical for the metal thing inside to drop.  It was very faintly clicking at times until I put it upright to test.

Thanks everyone!!   :notworthy: :cheers:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 04:57:04 pm by telengard »
S T U R C A D E     M.A.M.E. Cabinet
http://www.briansturk.com/mame.html

Robbbert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • Last login:September 13, 2019, 03:21:36 am
Re: Q*Bert + MAME + Knockers
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2019, 05:55:00 am »
Excellent :)