Best OS choice for creating multiple Mame/Jukebox systems

[jukingeo]

Hello all,

I have another one of those weird questions that came up due to the fact I am setting up Mame again on another new machine I bought.

Since I do this very often, I would like to know what is the BEST way or best OS choice to come up with that can be easily saved (preferably to a DVD-R or USB memory stick) and then easily installed on a new system.  The system could be standalone or cabinet, but pretty much dedicated to mame.  I prefer to use ITX boards because they are small and can easily be fitted into a small desktop cabinet as well as in a large floor standing cabinet.

The contenders are as follows:

1) DOS:

Pros-No registry to deal with...pretty much just copy the contents over and be done with it.  No internet calls to Mama Microsoft for registration.  Very small installation.  No gui, looks more authentic.
Cons-Very little driver support on new machines...i.e. most computers have on-board sound but I doubt that DOS drivers are available for them.  No USB support in DOS.  However, certain companies such as Groovy Game Gear still make PS/2 interfaces which negate that need.  Lack of choice of front ends as one can't take advantage of the new graphical front ends as no one is really designed front ends for DOS anymore

2) Windows 98SE:

Pros-full USB support.  Most on-board sound is supported (but not all).   Generally easy install.  No internet calls to Mama Microsoft, but you do need a product key (no problem since I have the full version). 
Cons-Most newer motherboards favor XP and up in terms of drivers needed for video and sound.  While I have found some Win98SE supported boards, I can see the availability dwindling in the future.  Extra measures have to be taken to remove the gui and cut out the 'extras' to streamline the OS.  Fairly long install due to loading up many drivers and many reboots.  Registry--Many programs have to be installed as per the operating system, as per the motherboard, which makes system HDD duplication difficult.  Lack of front ends for Windows 98SE, but more choice than DOS

3) Windows XP:

Pros:  Lets just say it is still current and just about all motherboards can support it, thus I don't foresee any current problems with setting up MAME/Jukebox systems in terms of on board video or sound.  Programs such as "N-Lite" all you to create a custom install CD that removes much of the unnecessary items and stuff that is not needed for a streamlined, low weight install.  Good choice of front ends.

Cons:  Even with nLite, I find XP still a beefy OS that does take up a chunk of space in relation to DOS, Win98SE or most lightweight Linux applications.   VERY long install with loading up drivers and constant reboots.  The thing that bothers me the most though about Windows XP is the requirement of each install to 'phone home' to Mama Microsoft.   I find this BAD because I know that XP support will eventually be halted and probably soon with the next OS release from Microsoft.   I am just WAITING for the day when I do an XP install and it says, "Sorry, your OS is outdated, upgrade to a new one".   That is probably the biggest con for me with using Windows XP.  Registry--Many programs have to be installed as per the operating system, as per the motherboard, which makes system HDD duplication difficult.


4) Linux (Ubuntu):

Pros:  On most modern motherboards, many Linux distributions can automatically detect and set up the motherboard's hardware.  Many distributions have package handling capabilities in which many programs can be effortless installed with a few mouse clicks.   The distributions are usually free for the download and do not necessarily have to be connected to the internet unless one does want regular updates, thus no 'phone home' to Mama Microsoft.  Installs are very fast and just require a few mouse clicks and then walk away.

Cons:  Not everything is 'automagically' recognized in Linux.   Sometimes there are unexplained issues that usually require considerable amounts of time to resolve (for example, I worked for 2 hours to try to get my com port working in Linux).  Updates CAN throw off settings especially when there is a new Kernel update (but as I said above, you don't HAVE to have updates).  Certain programs do set themselves up within the OS, much like 'registering' with Windows.  I am not sure if simply copying everything over would allow a running system as SDLMame & the front end Wah!Cade install via a package manager.   Doing a full update of the OS does knock these settings out and the programs would have to be reinstalled again.

Linux overall does have quite a bit of variety in terms of size and some variants are small and others are large.  I have found that the full version of Ubuntu really doesn't run that much faster than a streamlined version of Windows XP, but there are some lightweight versions of Linux that DO run very fast such as Puppy, Lubuntu, Gentoo, and Arch Linux (the latter two I am only just learning about).

Overall I do find myself very confused as to what direction to head down.  The easiest system to copy and duplicate is DOS.  But this would dictate running on old hardware and using dated front ends.

The easiest system to get running, but takes a long time to set up would be a Windows XP system.  In a case like this I would most likely have to buy multiple motherboards in order to facilitate identical setups.  While that is doable, it is not economically feasible.   Then there is the issue with needing to "phone home".

Linux would be the all out winner of the bunch as a balance between install time and system repeatability.  However, as you all know from my past posts here how long I been trying to get a flawless Linux system together.   While I have both my jukebox program and mame running on my new Intel i5 system, I have sound issues (SDLMame sound is crackling and DWJukebox sound has too much hiss.  Mame/DWjukebox under Windows XP on the SAME machine doesn't have these issues).   Needless to say I do wonder if I am barking up the wrong tree by going the Linux route.   However, I have not tried some of the more advanced and streamlined distributions such as Gentoo or Arch.  Perhaps I would have better luck with these.

At any rate, I am sure there are those that create multiple systems and or cabinets and I would like to pick your minds as to what is good solid route to go with.

Thank You,

Geo

[MPH]

I'll just add to your post that one question with XP is which version to use. By that I mean both XP Home versus Pro, but also (IMHO more importantly) whether stock XP, SP1, SP2, or SP3. The biggest advantage to using the Service Packs is that they add additional functionality to support more recent/modern devices (esp. USB) that may be more challenging to integrate properly with older XP versions. That being said, SP3 in particular added lots of "security" enhancements and closed quite a few (good) hacking methods by making some significant changes to XP's innards.

Personally, I prefer SP2 because you get the bulk of the additional hardware support, some security updates, and virtually all the UI hacks for XP will still work with it. The biggest problem with using SP3 is if you wish to modify the UI of the OS then it's much more challenging and time consuming as many of the UI hacks broke when SP3 was released. And today many of them are no longer actively supported by the authors.

In terms of support for XP, I would not be too concerned about that. If you look around, you can still find plenty of information covering Win95, Win98, and especially Windows 2000.

Just my 2 cents. Great post though. I think you covered the high points on this issue well, and it IS a big issue for anyone building a custom MAME cab.

[bitbytebit]

For the Linux side of things...

I'm trying to 'package up' a Linux CD/Install that is able to solve the issues with Linux, definitely are a few things to overcome and hopefully I can get it to that point where it is the 'flawless' setup you are seeking too.  One of the main issues right now with Linux is that most installations really aren't aimed at arcade usage or running mame optimally.  So hopefully soon, I'll hit that mark, at least it's looking closer lately and I'm right now working on quite a nice installation for it and administration remotely through a web port and/or easy windows share access to rom drives, advmenu integration.  I am using Gentoo, I think Gentoo is the best choice as a base but you basically are having to build your own distribution first then figure out how to install it.  That's what I've been doing basically, have a gentoo build that's a LiveCD/InstallCD both in one basically.  So ideally when this is done, it'd be the quick, pop in CD and run through a setup menu on the console quickly and you've got a cloned system.  Might want to give the next release a spin when I get this setup interface completely done, at least would be great to hear more feedback on things and my goal is the same as yours so definitely would work towards improving it that direction in the future. 

Also one of my goals is the perfect output display, vsync with the Radeon cards.  Basically the video card is quite important in Linux and it totally defines your experience, coupled with which distro you use and what they have setup for that brand of video card.  So that is also another factor in Linux, would be curious if your going with one brand/version or just wanting general support?  Basically things like Radeons work the best with what I have, others not as tested but I do  want to support them the same, just haven't found people to test them directly and I plan on tackling that more after things are a bit closer to being a clean  nice setup for the general install.

[Havok]

You forgot the best one: Windows 7 nlite install. You're completely wrong about phoning home to Microsoft for installs;  XP never needs to go online, and Windows 7 will require a one time activation, just to validate the O/S. The benefits to using Windows 7 are you get the best peripheral support, and can run virtually any front end. With nlite, you can strip it way down and make it quite efficient. (My cab from power off to front end running is 20 seconds).

As far as migrating to a new system and backing up your setup, you should look into Acronis Backup & Recovery Workstation with the Universal Restore add-on. It takes a snapshot of your system, and you can restore quickly, usually within 15 minutes (depending on data size) even to different hardware. I've been using it for a while and it works great!

[Havok]

Double post for more effectiveness?

 

[Paul Olson]

I haven't done the Win7 nlite install, but I really like win7. I just bought an AVGA card so I could finally get rid of XP64. The cab was my last computer that was not upgraded to win7. Hardware is so cheap now, I can't think of any good reason to mess with the older stuff.

[JohnEDollar]

As far as migrating to a new system and backing up your setup, you should look into Acronis Backup & Recovery Workstation with the Universal Restore add-on.

+1

Acronis Backup is a great program for quickly re-imaging a pc.

- John

[Havok]

Lovely. We have a spambot...

[Hoopz]

Lovely. We have a spambot...

That aint a bot.  It's an idiot acting like a 2 year old having a tantrum.

[Havok]

Ugh. Why would anyone bother? Saint needs to whip out the:



(Yes, that is Saint. Sad, but true.)

[jukingeo]

I am using Gentoo, I think Gentoo is the best choice as a base but you basically are having to build your own distribution first then figure out how to install it.  That's what I've been doing basically, have a gentoo build that's a LiveCD/InstallCD both in one basically.  So ideally when this is done, it'd be the quick, pop in CD and run through a setup menu on the console quickly and you've got a cloned system.  Might want to give the next release a spin when I get this setup interface completely done, at least would be great to hear more feedback on things and my goal is the same as yours so definitely would work towards improving it that direction in the future. 

Gentoo was one of the options I was looking into, but given the complexity in setting it up, it sounded like Arch would what I wanted, but would take a lot less time setting up.  So this sounded more appealing to me than spending (from what I read) whole day(s) setting up Gentoo.

As it stands though, for some reason Arch will not install to a USB memory stick.  The message board over there says it can be done, but I have tried three different brands of memory stick and all have failed.

I did read that USB memory sticks do have very slow write times, and it is possible the installation isn't waiting for the writes to complete, and that could be why I am getting errors on install.   At any rate, I am going to drop the memory stick for a Compact Flash card.   I know these can be set up as solid state hard drives and the write times are much better.

You forgot the best one: Windows 7 nlite install. You're completely wrong about phoning home to Microsoft for installs;  XP never needs to go online, and Windows 7 will require a one time activation, just to validate the O/S. The benefits to using Windows 7 are you get the best peripheral support, and can run virtually any front end. With nlite, you can strip it way down and make it quite efficient. (My cab from power off to front end running is 20 seconds).

Excuse me?  I am wrong about Windows XP needing to go on-line?   Then if that is the case, then how come whenever I install a Windows XP product I get a message that says the operating system will shut down if it is not activated within 30 days?  You think I am making that up?

Over the years I have installed a few different versions of Windows XP from the Home version to the Professional version and ALL have asked to connect (or call Microsoft) to activate it.

To All,

I have looked into several options thusfar and while Linux seems to be the most ideal, it does have its hiccups.  Windows XP probably would be the most reliable.   While I know I could probably use nLite with my copy of Windows XP Pro.  I had thought of looking into a small, low footprint version of Windows Embedded.   As of now the smallest version is Windows Embedded CE, and this is what most Smart Phones use.   The thing is that I don't know how much it would cost to go this route.  Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised that it has to be activated as well.

So that is the scoop for now.

Thanx all for the info.

Geo

[Nacimroc]

You forgot the best one: Windows 7 nlite install. You're completely wrong about phoning home to Microsoft for installs;  XP never needs to go online, and Windows 7 will require a one time activation, just to validate the O/S. The benefits to using Windows 7 are you get the best peripheral support, and can run virtually any front end. With nlite, you can strip it way down and make it quite efficient. (My cab from power off to front end running is 20 seconds).

Excuse me?  I am wrong about Windows XP needing to go on-line?   Then if that is the case, then how come whenever I install a Windows XP product I get a message that says the operating system will shut down if it is not activated within 30 days?  You think I am making that up?

Over the years I have installed a few different versions of Windows XP from the Home version to the Professional version and ALL have asked to connect (or call Microsoft) to activate it.

I've been using Tiny XP on loads of machines for past few years. Its fantastic.  Never had 1 error, 'dial home' problem, driver issue etc.  Even if you did get an error, whatever sheller program you are using wouldn't show it anyway?  Maybe its the "copy" of windows you are using ?

[General_Faliure]

I use Lubuntu + Wahcade for my arcade cab.
My hardware is pretty old; An Athlon 64 3200, a Gforce 5200 and 1 gig of ram.
The system starts up very fast and runs well, besides mame i have several other emulators.
There is a new version of Wahcade on launchpad, but it's not out officially yet.

Greetz, Ger.

[jukingeo]

I've been using Tiny XP on loads of machines for past few years. Its fantastic.  Never had 1 error, 'dial home' problem, driver issue etc.  Even if you did get an error, whatever sheller program you are using wouldn't show it anyway? 

What is Tiny XP?

Maybe its the "copy" of windows you are using ?

It is a copy of Windows Professional with SP2. 

I use Lubuntu + Wahcade for my arcade cab.
My hardware is pretty old; An Athlon 64 3200, a Gforce 5200 and 1 gig of ram.
The system starts up very fast and runs well, besides mame i have several other emulators.
There is a new version of Wahcade on launchpad, but it's not out officially yet.

Greetz, Ger.

Generally this is something that I want to do.  As of now I am doing testing with Ubuntu Studio Lucid (10.04), but I also have Lubuntu Meerkat (10.10), which is what I want to use for embedding work such as for Mame.   But even smaller would be a streamlined distribution such as Gentoo or Arch Linux.   My initial choice here would have been Arch because it is simpler to set up than Gentoo, but I tried to install Arch to a USB memory stick and the result...FAIL.  Next I am going to try an Arch install to a Compact Flash card (which is what I want to use instead of a hard drive).   If I am met with failure there, then I will fall back on Lubuntu.

As of now with Ubuntu Studio Lucid, I AM having a sound issue with SDLMame.  I get a series of crackles and pops with the audio, of which I do not have with any other sound (or game) program I am using.   So this has to be rectified before I settle on using a Linux based embedded OS for Mame.

Should Linux fail, then I will go back to "lightened" version of Windows XP.   As it is I might go this route anyway because I really would like to use Hyperspin as the front end, and that only works with Windows.   I tried it in Wine, but couldn't get it to work .


Thanx,

Geo

[ark_ader]

I think you should look at what applications you are going to use with your ITX.  That said, the older ITX boards especially the fan-less ones are not that great with modern Operating Systems.  You could get by with Windows 2000 Professional if you are wanting a NT platform, but you will need to install 1gb or more.  But you seem not to like to fiddle about with Linux, so Puppy Arcade would be out of the question.  I boot that on a thumb drive, all 16gb of it.

The problems with Tiny XP is the malware associated with it. eXperience's build had some code inside from those who hosted it that called home, then you have the WGA issues that do not go away. Tiny XP does not play nice with ITX kit as most of the inf files are gone to reduce space.

Your DOS problem isn't really a problem as you can boot USB flash from Dos from a non capable Bios.  It is quite easy, but again the original suggestion still applies:  what applications have you found and what is the target OS.  You need to do that first, then worry about the rest later.

Besides you are still missing an important contender, which you and I are familiar with, and does the job very well.  You just have to crack her open and build your cab around it. 

[robertsig]

As of now with Ubuntu Studio Lucid, I AM having a sound issue with SDLMame.  I get a series of crackles and pops with the audio, of which I do not have with any other sound (or game) program I am using.   

A lot of people have sound problems with Ubuntu and their derivatives.  Try PCLinuxOS and see if that helps.  It may not be the final distro you want to use for a slimmed down Mame PC, but is very well built and good for testing the "junk" out of Ubuntu.

[MPH]

As far as migrating to a new system and backing up your setup, you should look into Acronis Backup & Recovery Workstation with the Universal Restore add-on. It takes a snapshot of your system, and you can restore quickly, usually within 15 minutes (depending on data size) even to different hardware. I've been using it for a while and it works great!

I second using Acronis' Home backup software with the 'restore to dissimilar hardware' feature. Huge time saver.

[jukingeo]

I think you should look at what applications you are going to use with your ITX.  That said, the older ITX boards especially the fan-less ones are not that great with modern Operating Systems.  You could get by with Windows 2000 Professional if you are wanting a NT platform, but you will need to install 1gb or more.  But you seem not to like to fiddle about with Linux, so Puppy Arcade would be out of the question.  I boot that on a thumb drive, all 16gb of it.

Actually the ITX board I was looking into was a newer "Atom" CPU based board.  I don't mind fiddling with Linux if there are minor issues to deal with.  I really don't want to spend hours on end to take care of a (lets say) an audio issue.  I did try Puppy Arcade, but it didn't work right on my system.  Also I didn't care for the front end.  You know me by now, I want something that is more "arcade-ish".

The problems with Tiny XP is the malware associated with it. eXperience's build had some code inside from those who hosted it that called home, then you have the WGA issues that do not go away. Tiny XP does not play nice with ITX kit as most of the inf files are gone to reduce space.

Well, if it requires more fiddling than with Linux, I'll pass.

Your DOS problem isn't really a problem as you can boot USB flash from Dos from a non capable Bios.  It is quite easy, but again the original suggestion still applies:  what applications have you found and what is the target OS.  You need to do that first, then worry about the rest later.

Besides you are still missing an important contender, which you and I are familiar with, and does the job very well.  You just have to crack her open and build your cab around it. 

DOS?  I don't recall mentioning anything about DOS...but many moons ago I did have an Arcade OS DOS system that used an S-Video TV.  Cool system.

Geo

[Dexter]

Another vote for tinyxp. Quick bootup and hammers along. PLus the small footprint means you can use a smaller hard drive. I built one cab with tiny XP and a decent set of mame games on a 10GB hard drive from an old xbox!