Button Mods for Pinball games on MAME cab

[Hituro]

OK, so I was thinking of making a mod for my cab for pinball games.  I have two side buttons for flippers, and a button on the front for the plunger.  They're just happ buttons.  But, would it be possible to rig an actual plunger to register a button press when pulled?  And is there a way to set up actual flipper parts behind the side buttons to make them feel like actual flipper buttons on a pinball machine?  I think I saw a video where space googie used solenoids for the flipper buttons.  Just not sure how to do all that.  But I just think it would be cool to play Visual Pinball and actually pull the plunger to get the ball to shoot.

[gazz292]

well, solenoids are what a real pinball machine uses, you just get a little thunk as you press the button,

some people use industrial relays, but solenoids are cheaper, just be sure to use a quenching diode on the solenoid, otherwise the first time you press the button and release it, the back emf will blow the crap out of what ever input board you use (minipac/key whizz etc)

for the ball shooter thing, pretty easy to get a real pinball plunger assembly, and have a microswitch at the end for it to hit when released, tho to be honnest it wont be that realistic,

with a real pinball machine the plunger controls the rate at which the ball is fired, some skill shots require good plunger control,
there was an electronic plunger i read about that used a g-force sensor or similar to sense how far you'd pulled it out and sent the correct signal to the game, but that relies on the version of virtual pinball you use being able to use the info.

modern pinball machines dont use mechanical plungers, it's a button, or a gun trigger to launch the ball and control some in game features,
you do get a little thunk as the auto launch solenoid fires, but it's not as much as you think, and most people go way over the top with mame machines... thinking a mini earth tremmor is what you get when you press the flipper buttons,

of course if you emulating flipper knocks, you need to add the free game knocker solenoid, the pop bumper solenoids, sling shots, kickers etc,

to be honnest, a good sub on the sound system should re-produce most of the feeling of a real pinball game,

[Hituro]

Hmm.. yeah I guess the whole solenoid thing would be a bit over the top huh...  As for the plunger thing.. I've been thinking about it, and if I ringed the spring with a clasp, that when the plunger is pulled back, the clasp on the spring would press down on the button switch, when released, the switch would release, and emulate the plunger in Visual Pinball.  Really all it is is holding the button down and then releasing it.  But it would emulate the plunger well.  I don't know though, you might be right about going over the top.  Just was thinking of doing something different.

[drventure]

Here's a pic of how I did my plunger assembly.

I've found it works pretty decently. True, it's likely not quite as good a feel as one of those (expensive) plungers that act more like a joystick, but it's surprisingly good.

The idea is to wire the switch to nomally closed contacts instead of normally open. Then assemble it so that the plunger holds the switch down all the time.

When you pull back, it immediately "presses" the plunger key. and effectively "holds it done" till you let go.

In VP and FP, this is the same thing as pressing the enter key and holding it down to pull the plunger back farther.

Like I said, not exact by any stretch, but it does feel surprisingly realistic.

[Hituro]

So if you have it switched to normally closed.  When windows or anything else loads up, don't you get problems with that key press being held down until the button is pressed?  Also it's hard to see but I'm very curious about how you mounted the switch with the plunger.  If that is the switch it looks different than a switch used on a button, and I'll probably need to find one somewhere if I knew what kind of switch it was   But maybe just explain the normally closed thing to me.  Because I always thought normally closed meant that the button connection is active continuously and the button press disrupts it.

[BobA]

NC means the switch contact is closed if the switch is not activated. If you use the NC contacts and have the plunger touching the switch when at rest then the contact is open until the plunger is pulled away.  At that time it closes and makes contact.   When the plunger is let go it comes to rest on the switch and the NC contacts open again.

[Dazz]

Here is how my plunger is on my pincab, but I used the same when this was installed in my MAME cabinet.

Optical switch plunger.



The black triangle looking thing is an optic that is reading the tip of the plunger.  It is wired to a PCB that has power and a de-bounce circuit.  The power is 5v being pulled from my opti-pac, and the input is wired to my ipac.  When pulled back the switch activates and when the plunger is moved back into place it triggers the shot.  While this doesn't allow for precise plunger control there is no physical contact with the plunger.

[Hituro]

NC means the switch contact is closed if the switch is not activated. If you use the NC contacts and have the plunger touching the switch when at rest then the contact is open until the plunger is pulled away.  At that time it closes and makes contact.   When the plunger is let go it comes to rest on the switch and the NC contacts open again.

Yeah that makes sense now, thanks for clearing that up.  now that I re-read NC's post, I was misreading it and that's where i got condfused.

And DAZZ, that's awesome!  I might just have to get me one of those.  Still debating if I want it on there.  Some friends of mine think it will take away from the overall look of the cab.  I want it more or less for personal use in that I like pinball and I like pulling the plunger for shots.  But I know in newer pinball games like Indiana Jones, there is just a button to press or a trigger to pull.  Still debating though... that only makes me want one more though ;p

[Hituro]

Here is how my plunger is on my pincab, but I used the same when this was installed in my MAME cabinet.

Optical switch plunger.



The black triangle looking thing is an optic that is reading the tip of the plunger.  It is wired to a PCB that has power and a de-bounce circuit.  The power is 5v being pulled from my opti-pac, and the input is wired to my ipac.  When pulled back the switch activates and when the plunger is moved back into place it triggers the shot.  While this doesn't allow for precise plunger control there is no physical contact with the plunger.

I really like this setup.  Can you tell me where you got the parts for something like this?  Specifically the optical device?  And is it necessary to use the Opti-pac for this?  I mean, I'm sure Andy is gonna love that I've been buying so much from him lately

[Dazz]

Unfortunately, a lot of the parts that I used are obsolete.  I'm sure there are newer parts available, but I don't know enough to match up the correct parts.  I'm sure any 5v source would work, not only the opti-pac.  I'm actually using the 5v from my Led-Wiz now, but I was also using the 5v off the computer power supply.

Pinball Plunger Circuit Parts List

IC1   74LS14N (Mouser P/N# 512-DM74LS14N)
R1   1K Ohm ¼ Watt Resistor (Radio Shack)
R2   220 Ohm ¼ Watt Resistor (Radio Shack)
C1   10 uF Electrolytic Capacitor (anything above 10v)( Radio Shack) (Check polarity!)
LED1   Green LED (Radio Shack)
SL1   Computer Disk Drive Power Connector(Mouser P/N# 538-15-24-4345)
JP1   3 Position Jumper (Mouser P/N# 544-CA-S36SP100 and 151-8000 jumper)
X1   4 Position Phoenix Connector(Mouser P/N# 651-1729144)
Opto-switch   Sharp GP2L24 Reflective Opto-switch
R3   Resistor in harness - 300 Ohm ¼ Watt Resistor
R4   Resistor in harness - 10K Ohm ¼ Watt Resistor

[drventure]

Sorry, just now seeing the replies on this thread.

Boba is right about the NC and NO.

and you're right about the "not quite a button switch". it's actually a Roller switch. Essentially the same as a button switch, but the metal lever has a roller at the end instead of just plain, I ordered my over the internet. most electronics suppliers will carry them.

[Hituro]

Thanks doc!  I'll probably look into a roller switch, my friends don't seem to think the idea is cool enough, but I do, and my fiance liked it too.  Since we both like pinball, I suppose that's all that matters ;p  I do like the optical switch but I think I will end up going with the roller switch.  Thanks a bunch

BTW DrVenture, do you suggest any other parts besides the plunger parts and the roller switch?  And, how difficult is it to mount a plunger, never really installed one of those before.

[Hituro]

One more question, what type of mounting plate are you using on your plunger?

[wonderalex]

There this too:

http://www.nanotechent.com/mot-ionkit.php

WonderAlex

[HanoiBoi]

I just mounted a plunger and wired the switch as NC - Normally Closed.  Pulling back is fine but when I let the plunger hit, it usually 'bounces' which makes it hit the switch twice resulting in a weak launch.  It looks okay and launches well for games like Firepower and Gorgar but not so good for Funhouse, Whodunnit, Ripley's and such.  

How can I eliminate that bounce?  Does a roller switch help with that?

[drventure]

Sorry, i'm just now seeing the responses on this thread 

Anyway, about other parts, I really didn't need much. I scavenged a metal bracket that came off an old microwave mount, cut a small wood block and used a few screws and nuts so that I could easily adjust exactly where the plunger strikes the switch, then screw it all down nice and tight.

Mounting the plunger is dirt simple, drill 3 holes, one big one for the plunger shaft and two small ones for mounting screws. At least that's the style plunger I used. There are several different varieties though.

About the bounce. I'm using a roller switch that rolls against the SIDE of the plunger, it's not struck by the END of the plunger. Never had any problems with bounce at all. That might be the trick, as I can easily imagine a switch contacting the END of the plunger will likely bounce pretty bad.

[Dazz]

There this too:

http://www.nanotechent.com/mot-ionkit.php

WonderAlex

I would strongly suggest not going with this product...  I've been debating on purchasing one, but the CON's seem to outweigh the PROS.  I personally do not have much experience with this product with exception of helping a friend try to get it working. 

The company is known to take FOREVER to ship, lacks product support, difficult to configure and causes conflicts in the software.  VP tables must be scripted for this to work and not all table authors add the code for it.  Honestly, I have not heard a single good thing about the Mot-Ion.

[drventure]

Wow, 140$, it's $$$ too.

I think my plunger was 10$ on ebay, the switch I had left over from some buttons, and the brackets were scrounged.

Then I went and had the plunger brass plated 

But it looks good!

[HanoiBoi]

I think I already know the answer, but is there anyway to replicate the plunger as in stopping the pull in the middle or inching forward a bit prior to releasing (for skill shots)?

Does the roller switch allow for this or is it still just a switch?

BTW drventure and Dazz, I enjoy your work and find many of your posts helpful. 

[drventure]

Thanks!

Since it's just a switch, there's not much of a way to finesse it.

HOWEVER, I've found that the pin games I play (Future Pin and Virtual Pinball) both rely on HOW LONG you hold the enter key down to determine how far back to pull the plunger.

On my cab anyway, the timing seems to be awfully close to how long it normally takes to pull the actual plunger back.

For instance, If I want to just barely bump the ball, I pull the plunger back just a little and let go.

Since the plunger only came off the switch for a short amount of time, the virtual plunger is only pulled back slightly.

The net effect is it's close to feeling like you're actually pulling back the virtual plunger. It's not exact by any means but it feels pretty close!

Hope I explained that well.

[Dazz]

I think I already know the answer, but is there anyway to replicate the plunger as in stopping the pull in the middle or inching forward a bit prior to releasing (for skill shots)?

Does the roller switch allow for this or is it still just a switch?

BTW drventure and Dazz, I enjoy your work and find many of your posts helpful. 

Right now there really isn't a way to fine tune the plunger in VP.  However, there is movement on VPForums.org about using analog controllers for pinball plungers in VP.  The development and coding is still fairly young as people are still playing with ways to interface the plunger with the controller...  More info here -
WIP - VP Mouse and Joystick Input Plugin

[HanoiBoi]

Hey guys, an odd thing just came about all of a sudden and I'm pretty confident that someone here can figure it out. 

With my plunger wired as NC and everything else as NO, things were working well; pull plunger to select game in Hyperspin, pull (and/or release) plunger to launch ball and use flipper buttons to rotate the wheel and 'flip'.

All of a sudden, the plunger isn't selecting the game.  It spins the wheel.

After some reboots and trials, it appears that the plunger ('NC' Enter) also activates the left flipper ('NO' LShift) and the left flipper also activates the plunger.

What happened?

[drventure]

Very strange, you sure you don't have a short somewhere between those two wires?

I'd disconnect both, verify they're dead, reconnect one, verify it and then reconnect the other...

[HanoiBoi]

I found the culprit.  The ground came disconnected from the IPAC.  Looks like a wire got caught on the coin door.   

Sorry for the quick post with the question.

[Xiaou2]

to be honnest, a good sub on the sound system should re-produce most of the feeling of a real pinball game,

 I completely Disagree.

 While Subs can create vibrational effect... its dull unless its nearly loud enough to blow out car windows... and even then, Subs only produce a certain range of vibration.  Also, that vibration is not localized... meaning, you cant simulate the feel of the thumps in different locations very well.

 People can be fooled with audio fairly easily.  But feel is another story.  Riding a real skateboard -vs- a movie+high end sound/sub system... is no comparison.  It might sound the same, but wont feel it.

 There are 2 better solutions for excellent Vibrational effects.

1) Solenoids  - Quite simply, there is nothing that will FEEL like the real deal.

2) Bass-Shakers - A speaker that has its air-moving cone removed, and instead, has a weight attached to it.   These produce little to no actual sound... but Insane amounts of vibrations.

 Only problem with bass shakers... is that they too can be limited in the range of their effect as well. (though they have a much greater range than subs)  The higher pitch ranges of a traditional flipper coil / assembly working.. may not get much if any vibration feedback.  Even if you could get the effect close (maybe by changing the sample sound), the FEEL will be a lot different than the real result of a coil assembly.