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Author Topic: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?  (Read 18182 times)

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WhereEaglesDare

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Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« on: January 22, 2011, 11:53:39 am »
Is there any advantage to leaf buttons over micro-switch buttons?

I read the discussion about RoboTron and leaf sticks, but what about buttons?

D_Harris

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 02:07:10 pm »
Is there any advantage to leaf buttons over micro-switch buttons?

I read the discussion about RoboTron and leaf sticks, but what about buttons?

Basically the same thing. They feel different from each other. And the Micro switches are of course more maintenance free.

The issue really isn't that you can hear the click of Micro switches as much as you being able to feel the click, which is something you don't experience with leaf switches.

Outside of that I think the hoopla made over the difference in "throw distance" is hogwash. (That goes for buttons as well as joysticks). But you'll need to put more pressure on your buttons to activate the micro switch compared to the leaf switches.

Darren Harris
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« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:13:47 pm by D_Harris »
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opt2not

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 02:33:55 pm »
There's a good explaination of the button difference posted in that robotron thread as well ( by Xiaou2):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108565.msg1154453#msg1154453
He's pretty bang-on with the explaination.

Quote
And the Micro switches are of course more maintenance free.
No way. Micros are way more prone to failing than leafs. They have more small moving parts and are more likely to fail over time than leafs. I've had to replace several microswitches on the machines that I've maintained before, and these were machines that got lots of play time. And in most cases it was the small actuators inside the switch that would bend or snap.

Quote
But you'll need to put more pressure on your buttons to activate the micro switch.
This is the problem. More pressure means less activation presses, or more effort to keep up with quick activation.

Really, the only good reasons to use micros are that that are readily available, and much cheaper in price.

D_Harris

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 03:32:04 pm »
There's a good explaination of the button difference posted in that robotron thread as well ( by Xiaou2):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108565.msg1154453#msg1154453
He's pretty bang-on with the explaination.

Quote
And the Micro switches are of course more maintenance free.
No way. Micros are way more prone to failing than leafs. They have more small moving parts and are more likely to fail over time than leafs. I've had to replace several microswitches on the machines that I've maintained before, and these were machines that got lots of play time. And in most cases it was the small actuators inside the switch that would bend or snap.


Micro switches are still more maintenance free. I'm talking about having to keep adjusting the leaf switches over the course of their life. You don't have to do that with micro switches.  But like anything, when they break then you replace them.

Quote


Quote
But you'll need to put more pressure on your buttons to activate the micro switch.
This is the problem. More pressure means less activation presses, or more effort to keep up with quick activation.


Of course. For games like Asteroids and especially Track and Field leaf switches are indispensable.

Quote

Really, the only good reasons to use micros are that that are readily available, and much cheaper in price.


As long as you don't mind having to adjust the leaf switches regularly, then I agree.

Darren Harris
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My collection:Asteroids, Joust, Millipede, Ms. Pac-man, Pole Position, Robotron 2084, Star Trek, Star Wars, and 100+ PCBs. Trading/Selling:Arkanoid: R.O.D. Cocktail, Tornado spinner, Hewlett Packard 16500A Logic Analysis System with Accessories. Wanted:Mach 3 joystick. Millipede Trackball. 100° or WG4600 monitor Tube.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 03:38:02 pm »
More pressure means less activation presses, or more effort to keep up with quick activation.

How much force does it take to move a leaf switch into making contact? I know it's not much, but surely it is measurable. You can also get microswitches with a 20 gram rating, which isn't much at all. Just curious as to how many grams it takes to activate a leaf switch.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 03:39:34 pm »
get a microleaf?

its like asking whats better, coke or pepsi?
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 03:59:52 pm »
I agree with Malenko, joysticks and buttons come down to personal preference. That being said, micros are less maintenance

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 05:32:59 pm »
Leafs are always better.

If you have an arcade machine and think that button maintenance is an actual issue, then you need to be doing something else ... or paying attention to the 999 other things that needed your attention before the buttons got out of whack.

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opt2not

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 09:37:05 pm »
Of course. For games like Asteroids and especially Track and Field leaf switches are indispensable.
One is built for speed, the other for economy. As Darren has pointed out, games like Asteroids and Track and Field require a high rate of button presses. Galaga, Time Pilot, most early shooters that didn't have auto-fire designed into their games benefit the most out of leafs.
What's left then? Fighting games, Puzzle games, games that relied less on button presses and more on joysticks (Puzzle Bobble, Tetris, the Pac's, the DK's, Burgertime, Mr.Do etc..), you could get away with micro-switches for their buttons.

Personally I'd rather go for performance, mainly because I'm always looking for an edge to increase my score output.
You may say "I like micros better, because that's my personal preference", but really that just says you're either:
- content with your current gaming performance, without the inclination to increase your scores
- like the "clicky-ness" of micros
- mostly play games that don't require rapid button usage
- or you've never actually played a game with leaf-switches.

It really is "night and day" when you compare the two along side each-other during a game experience. Especially games that require rapid firing.

How much force does it take to move a leaf switch into making contact? I know it's not much, but surely it is measurable. You can also get microswitches with a 20 gram rating, which isn't much at all. Just curious as to how many grams it takes to activate a leaf switch.
A feather's touch. I don't have actual numbers, because well, I'm not a numbers guy. But I can say that if I were to compare it to lighter activation switches like say GGG Micro-leafs (which I currently have installed in my Canucks Cocktail cabinet) real leafs are pretty close to those. I like GGG's micro-leafs, they're a good compromise between both worlds.

But with real leaf-switch buttons, you're basically just fighting with the pressure of the button spring, and not really much from activating the switch. 
It literally is a "feather's touch".

Micro switches are still more maintenance free. I'm talking about having to keep adjusting the leaf switches over the course of their life. You don't have to do that with micro switches.  But like anything, when they break then you replace them.
Yes leafs require adjusting every so often, but really it's so few and far between to be any kind of hassle. Besides, taking a couple needle-nose pliers for a quick "bend and fix" is A. Less time and effort needed to swap out an entire switch, (arcade ops can appreciate that) and B. Over the long run, much more economic since you don't have to stock spares!

At my last job, I've had to maintain a few machines that had a high amount of user-traffic. Three of those machines (stand-ups) had Cherry micro-switches installed, one cocktail that had leafs. Every month or so I had to replace multiple failed micro switches at least two of the stand-ups, and not once had to adjust or fix buttons on the cocktail. I wondered to myself, "why don't these micros last longer? They're newer, and pretty simple by design...the cocktail got just as much attention as the rest, so what gives?". The simple answer that I could come up with was that arcade machines get rough-housed. I noticed that people tend to rapidly smash hit the microswitch buttons because it was the only way they can keep their firing-rate quick enough. What this did was it would rattle the internal levers of the switch, over time causing those flimsy metal pieces to bend or sometimes snap from repeated impact. Try telling someone to not smash the CP so hard when they're frantically trying to keep a high-rate of fire...:lol

On the cocktail, (which had a 60in1) people mostly played Galaga, Time Pilot and 1942 on it. Games that required a lot of rapid button pressing, but this machine never had any button problems. I also noticed that people tend to play with leafs differently than micros.  For instance, players that hit micro-based buttons tend to use the "index and middle finger - lift and slap" technique, while leaf-switch players tend to keep their index finger rested on the button, balancing the depress pressure between activation and de-activation. I'm sure I'm looking too deep into this, and I did get a few funny looks while being caught staring at people's hands while they played,  and not the screen where all the action was.  :D

Now the thing to keep in mind from my run-on-story here is that the games I had to maintained were in constant use everyday. With that amount of traffic, you're bound to have to maintain switches on the machine a lot more than machines that are for home-use.

If you have an arcade machine and think that button maintenance is an actual issue, then you need to be doing something else ... or paying attention to the 999 other things that needed your attention before the buttons got out of whack.
Exactly! Arcade maintenance is the nature of the beast!
Everything that has moving parts must be serviced every so often. Like your car. Would you want be replacing parts of your car every so often with new parts?
 :angel:

huygens

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 10:49:03 pm »
The nature of the switch is different. Microswitches snap closed rather than closing smoothly like a leaf. It's my understanding that this is to reduce or eliminate switch bounce as the switch goes from open to full pressure almost instantly. This also means that the switch has to be released a slight distance for the little spring arm to reset after the switch is closed. It's instructive to crack open a switch and see how it works inside.
A leaf switch on the other hand doesn't need to reset so an extremely tiny movement can cycle the switch from open to closed.

Japanese buttons are more like leaf switches in this respect (no snap action inside the switch).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 10:52:18 pm by huygens »

D_Harris

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 01:47:51 am »
Just to clarify, I'm a classic gamer and prefer leaf switches on my buttons and joysticks.

Too bad no one is producing leaf switch joysticks.   :(

The original selling point for micro switches were that they were to new thing and wouldn't suffer from the need to continually tweak them like like the leaf switches. And they are so much cheaper. Of course, all this was misleading.

Has anyone really though to attempt an in depth assessment of maintenance and replacement costs of leafs vs. micros. (We already know which one feels better).

Darren Harris
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 06:17:38 pm by D_Harris »
My collection:Asteroids, Joust, Millipede, Ms. Pac-man, Pole Position, Robotron 2084, Star Trek, Star Wars, and 100+ PCBs. Trading/Selling:Arkanoid: R.O.D. Cocktail, Tornado spinner, Hewlett Packard 16500A Logic Analysis System with Accessories. Wanted:Mach 3 joystick. Millipede Trackball. 100° or WG4600 monitor Tube.

Blanka

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 02:10:17 am »
The third option is Japanese buttons. Fast, silent, with a close-to-leaf feel and micro-switch-low-maintenance. Heck they invented bloody fast button pressing games!

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 02:18:07 am »
The third option is Japanese buttons. Fast, silent, with a close-to-leaf feel and micro-switch-low-maintenance. Heck they invented bloody fast button pressing games!

But from what I know those buttons don't last when being used by heavy handed Americans.  ;D

Darren Harris
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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 03:00:55 am »
I am new to looking at this leaf switch vs. micro issue.  I'm just wondering why they aren't producing leaf switches at all anymore.  They look pretty simple, seem like just two pieces of metal that touch, real simple and can't see why they are so rare.  Seems a lot simpler than the microswitch to me, would think someone could somewhat manufacture leaf switches and sell them on their own.  Wouldn't it be just plastic molding and holding the two metal contact parts within that?  I might be missing something, I'm not familiar with the history of it, just seems odd these are 'phased out' and it's so hard to just find a joystick using them or the buttons using them.  Aren't the buttons available though, or are the ones I'm seeing new not the same as the older ones? 

Does anyone have recommendations on the best leaf switch buttons, where to get them from new?  I got the groovy game gear micro leaf switches and those are many times better to me than the plain zippy switches I had, which one wore out after a couple months already so I got the microleaf and couldn't believe how much better and responsive they are.  So I'm guessing the leaf switches might just add to that continuum of improvement I have seen and be even better, at least I'm hoping.  I know that I just bought 2 wico leaf nos joysticks and just today got them, and first thing I can see is they just feel amazingly different than a micro switch joystick.  So I just don't see why someone isn't capitalizing off of that fact.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 04:22:14 am »
From what I can tell the original sales pitch convinced the market that micro switches were better because they were cheaper and ops didn't have to keep adjusting them. (Of course they didn't give gamers who preferred the feel of leafs a say).

So now the game owners who buy most of the switches are convinced that micro switches are less trouble.

Is this true when you take everything into consideration? That's a good question, and the reason I said that an in depth assessment needs to be done to determine if in the long run micro switches are really less trouble and cheaper.

And then the next step would be re-convincing the market.

Darren Harris
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My collection:Asteroids, Joust, Millipede, Ms. Pac-man, Pole Position, Robotron 2084, Star Trek, Star Wars, and 100+ PCBs. Trading/Selling:Arkanoid: R.O.D. Cocktail, Tornado spinner, Hewlett Packard 16500A Logic Analysis System with Accessories. Wanted:Mach 3 joystick. Millipede Trackball. 100° or WG4600 monitor Tube.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 05:24:50 am »
They look pretty simple, seem like just two pieces of metal that touch, real simple and can't see why they are so rare.  Seems a lot simpler than the microswitch to me, would think someone could somewhat manufacture leaf switches and sell them on their own.
Microswitches are usefull in other departments than home-arcade-building and vintage-arcade-preservation. Those other departments is what they make them for, they don't care about us. Guess the only option is for the Andy's and Randy's to start a new production line for the enthusiasts.

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Re: Buttons: Leaf or Micro-Switch?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 09:27:06 am »

Does anyone have recommendations on the best leaf switch buttons, where to get them from new?  I got the groovy game gear micro leaf switches and those are many times better to me than the plain zippy switches I had, which one wore out after a couple months already so I got the microleaf and couldn't believe how much better and responsive they are.  So I'm guessing the leaf switches might just add to that continuum of improvement I have seen and be even better, at least I'm hoping.  I know that I just bought 2 wico leaf nos joysticks and just today got them, and first thing I can see is they just feel amazingly different than a micro switch joystick.  So I just don't see why someone isn't capitalizing off of that fact.

GGG has their True Leaf Pro switches which are very nice and available now for LED or solid color buttons.  But they only work in the GGG buttons.  FWIW, I think the GGG buttons (ClassX and EI) are a lot nicer than the typical Happs.

The Rollie Leaf switch looks nice - works in a standard button - but I've never seen them in stock anywhere.   :dunno