Advice on Buttons

[scream1973]

There are so many out there.. Its kinda confusing to say the least..

Groovygear has like 3-4 type
Happ sells them
Ultimarc sells them


Any pointers?

[bullrees]

Been scratching my head on this also. I'm thinking of just ordering one from each and see what I like.

[Donkbaca]

Depends on what you want to do with them. Most of it is personal preference.  Concave or convex?  Lighted or opaque?  Then there is the decision on what type of microswitches.    So basically:

1 - do you want them to light up?
2 - Concave or convex buttons?
3 - how soft do you want them to be? Do you want them to have be mashed? or activated with slightest effort?
4 - what color do you want?

Answer these and you can narrow it down pretty quickly

[Donkbaca]

In case none of that matters to you, if you grew up in the US and liked early 80's games, you want leaf switches.  Late 80's games used standard Happ buttons and switches, so those would be most familiar.

[VanillaGorilla]

if you're over 30, Id say you're gonna like the IL/Suzo/Happ concave style (classic arcade machines had these). if you're under 30, Im gonna guess you'll prefer the convex sanwa style (fighter type games generally have these)...

[SammyWI]

Been scratching my head on this also. I'm thinking of just ordering one from each and see what I like.

This.  I reviewed some of GGGs recently (in the review forum, hint, hint), but you'll really never know till you try them for yourself.  Single buttons are fairly cheap to try out.

[scream1973]

i am in the over 30 crowd . Nice thing is my son has never really played much of the traditional arcade machines so he wont care either way..  True that buttons are cheap enough..

Thanks for the input.. I may just order a bunch and figure out what i want ..

As it looks now its opaque buttons since i am doing a wood grained cabinet with more than likely no CP art ( at this time )

[Bender]

I'd really try out GGG's new Class x buttons, 3 options for switches is just awesome (true leaf, micro leaf, and cherry type micro)
Plus removable base makes the wiring and panel easier to put together

[MagicManPA]

3 - how soft do you want them to be? Do you want them to have be mashed? or activated with slightest effort?

That reminds me, what are the button options for those of us that don't want to mash them? I've got my CP done & the buttons I have require too much effort IMO.

[CheffoJeffo]

In case none of that matters to you, if you grew up in the US and liked early 80's games, you want leaf switches. 

THIS ... except for the "in case none of that matters to you" part ...

[Rando]

if you're over 30, Id say you're gonna like the IL/Suzo/Happ concave style (classic arcade machines had these).

You had me at over 30...

[8BitMonk]

Donkbaca has the main questions you need to answer pegged. I can relate my personal experience...

For my build I went with all Ultimarc Ultralux buttons knowing I wanted illuminated buttons and thinking I didn't care about them being convex/concave or the microswitch.

After much playtime with them I found:
A.) I Don't like the fact that they're convex. Which makes sense I guess since I'm over 30?
B.) Found the microswitch too hard to press.

They are great for the admin buttons (P1, Coin, Pause etc.) especially with the fancy silver shaft/bezel but didn't like them for play. I'm switching them out for GGG Electric Ice 2 buttons with true leaf switches for their concave-ness and hopefully feather touch.

One item Donkbaca missed is budget. Ask yourself what you're willing to spend. Illuminated buttons when you include the LED board(s) can be expensive.

[MagicManPA]

Anyone?

I'm running the concave IL buttons from Paradise. I still want concave, but I want something that requires less effort to push.

3 - how soft do you want them to be? Do you want them to have be mashed? or activated with slightest effort?

That reminds me, what are the button options for those of us that don't want to mash them? I've got my CP done & the buttons I have require too much effort IMO.

[Dr Zero]

Anyone?

I'm running the concave IL buttons from Paradise. I still want concave, but I want something that requires less effort to push.

3 - how soft do you want them to be? Do you want them to have be mashed? or activated with slightest effort?

That reminds me, what are the button options for those of us that don't want to mash them? I've got my CP done & the buttons I have require too much effort IMO.

Try looking at these, you can just swap out the switches you have for the lighter ones. or you can just go to leafs but that is a whole other can of worms
 
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/3-20-gram-micro.html
I have to start by saying that ALL MICROSWITCHES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL.....and I learned this the hard way.  Our 20 gram switches are the lightest available.  Once installed you won't feel the click, or hear it through the control panel, these are soft and smooth.  Others may claim that they are "light touch" but ask them what their specifications are, why don't they advertise them?   We put our numbers out there, front and center, NO FUZZY MATH!

 

So how did I end up getting our own custome microswitches made?  I ordered a whole bunch of switches from my button supplier, they arrived and they were HORRIBLE.  Why? because they required 125-150 grams of force to activate.  A little research and a lot of sore fingers later, I found realized that a true arcade micro should be 50-75... So that's easy, just stock up right? One problem, these are pricey, Happ wants 1.00 a switch!!! So I asked Happ who makes their Micros and said screw this, I'm calling them directly, and that is how I got hooked up with Zippy. 

Zippy has a whole range of micros, so I decided to have some fun, I wanted to see what a 20 gram micro would feel like, and it felt AWESOME.
BEWARE: many other people who sell micros will not know the activation force of their microswitches, especially on EBAY...do not buy these, I can almost guarantee they will be high force switches.  Just to see I ordered from 4-6 different Ebay sellers 3 of whom, after asking, said, "Oh yes of course these are 50 gram".  Then when I received the microswitches and tested them with a force meter, they said, "Well you can ship them back and we will refund the switch cost but not the shipping".  This is not the way to stand behind a product and not the service you will receive here.

[Donkbaca]

+1

I have the 20 microgram switches from paradise arcade.  I like them, they are really light and practically silent.  My brother in law, who is not a gamer AT ALL, commented on how nice the action was on the switches in my control panel.  I would recommend them if you are looking for a responsive, low noise switch

[armi0024]

DR. Zero, thanks for the copy!

Buttons and joysticks are like speakers, you need to try a few out.  I started building machines using Ultimarc's MagStick Plus, then switched to JLW's on Chad's suggestion from Lizard Lick.  I have played with the base for the Tru-4 which is very similar to a classic stick by JB and they all have great merits.(I know those are all joysticks but the point is the same)

It's hard to test out different sticks and buttons because of mail order and what someone else things is good may not be your favorite. To boot, all the knock off overseas buttons are not the same.  Take for example our short barrel and long barrel, completely different.

I would order from 1-3 stores and see what you think.  For 12-15 dollars, including shipping, you can get 5-7 different buttons from us all with different microswitches, lightweight 20gram(which are really 20g or under), 50 gram, or classic 75 gram cherry.  You can probably also get a good selection from LL or GGG for about the same price.  30 up front will get you an amazing selection for your cabinet. You could do it for even less if you eliminate LED buttons.  But to me, 30 to get it right is not much to spend on a cabinet you will be putting a lot of time into and a lot of time playing.

It's all personal preference. Me, right now I like Sanwa JLF's with an octagon gate with IL translucents running 20 gram micros.  If I want to pimp that **** out, I do the titanium joystick shaft and annodize it to match the art.  But I also hate Bose speakers so maybe you can't trust my opinions...I'm a B&W guy all the way.

[Xiaou2]

Just something to be aware of...

  Its very possible that light activating switches will have a much reduced lifespan...
because the spring will not be as domed and thus would flatten out much quicker.

 I recall in the arcades, that many times a failing/failed micro had a very light activation
force.  It would get to the point where sometimes it would click.. and sometimes it wouldnt.

[Donkbaca]

X-2:
I doubt that is something to be worried about, you are comparing a worn out part to one designed to operate with less force.  Even if you were right and let's say they last half as king, that is still 5 million activation presses versus 10 million

[RandyT]

Just something to be aware of...

  Its very possible that light activating switches will have a much reduced lifespan...
because the spring will not be as domed and thus would flatten out much quicker.

Something else to be aware of;  not all micros use an arched, bent-metal type spring.  Many light actuation micros, including the ones we offer as standard, use coil springs.  Coiled springs don't wear quicker by virtue of requiring less force.  They are simply designed with that trait in mind (more coils, etc.)  Most switches have a longevity based upon contact life, with a mechanical life usually being much longer, which is pretty much equal among different actuation forces in the same switch style.

RandyT

[mgb]

The GGGs are nice and they are versatile.

[scream1973]

I ended up going with the electric ice buttons.. Now i just need to wait until the Electric Ice Trackball is back in stock

[mgb]

Good choice.
They look cool lit up and I also really like the way they look when not lit.

[Garza]

I agree GGG buttons look good lighted or not. And the feel is really good too. 

[jipp]

thanks for mention the forces aspect of the buttons.  i bought buttons from two sources on my CP.  and some of them i can touch and they activate, and others i have to like hit real hard to get a register..

so, im gonna have to buy some switches and experiment.    i was thinking, it was because i have two type of buttons.. ones that the switch mounts inside and then the other type that mounts at a right angle.  i thought this was the reason for the difference in switching.  i really dis like having to tap hard on my credit or player 1 button to get a key register.  when i order my spinner next month i guess ill try some new switches and see what happens.

chris.

[Dr Zero]

thanks for mention the forces aspect of the buttons.  i bought buttons from two sources on my CP.  and some of them i can touch and they activate, and others i have to like hit real hard to get a register..

so, im gonna have to buy some switches and experiment.    i was thinking, it was because i have two type of buttons.. ones that the switch mounts inside and then the other type that mounts at a right angle.  i thought this was the reason for the difference in switching.  i really dis like having to tap hard on my credit or player 1 button to get a key register.  when i order my spinner next month i guess ill try some new switches and see what happens.

chris.

I need to get a set of each to try the ones I have now are a little soft for me, Im trying to find that happy medium. Dont like the obvious click but want some tactile response maybe a stiffer spring in the button vs the switch??

[mgb]

... ones that the switch mounts inside and then the other type that mounts at a right angle.

The ones with the switch inside, I assume you are talking about these

They're Happ Ultimates and I believe the general concensus on those is not great. I know I'm not a fan of them.
Probably any other button setup will be better.

Paradise arcade shops has 20gram and 50 gram switches.
Groovey Game Gear has 20 gram and they have a switch that you can adjust.

[CheffoJeffo]

They're Happ Ultimates and I believe the general concensus on those is not great. I know I'm not a fan of them.
Probably any other button setup will be better.

Yep -- anytime I get an Ultimate in a cab it goes straight in the garbage (and I tend to keep boxes of used stuff).

[jipp]

yeah its the happs ultimate buttons indeed.. i have 14 of them..  with said  cherry switches.. so the ebay auction said. ( the rest are happs with the right angle concave buttons ) i did not know any better.  i figured a switch was a switch.  but the more i use my control panel the more i learn. and i understand now  all buttons and sticks are not created equal  this just is not the case.. when i first started ordering parts for my control panel.. i figured a button was a button...  heh.  dork slaps my self.   today is the first day i played games all day on my cab.. and i  see why they offer different buttons, and joysticks now.

after a few hours i know what i want in a stick and how i want the buttons to feel.  just gonna be trial and error to find that happy medium. and then ill be set!

chris.

[mgb]

Trial & Error it is definately is.
I've tried may parts that I thought would be the right part.
I have since ordered replacements of different brands.
Thats how you find what really works for you.
Sometimes you've gotta save money and settle.
Everytime I order something now, my wife says didn't you already order that.

[armi0024]

Since this seems to be a big question, I put together a little pack and I'll throw it up on the website soon.  
5.50 with shipping(First Class)
1 Happ concave black horizontal microswitch pushbutton and 4 microswitches:
20g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
50g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
75g Cherry (the standard switch for years and the weight more standard Happ or IL D44X buttons are sold with)
125 gram generic (I would not suggest playing with this, but I have extras so we are throwing it in to give you an idea of what heavy is like)

This way people can, for a low cost, get an idea of what the differences are between different weights and know what weight you are testing.  All the name brand micros are coil spring based, and should be similar if not identical to all the major players on the market who have similar micros.  If anyone wants priority, it would be 8.50 total.  

When the Rollies come in we'll figure out a set to include them also... Game on !

[RandyT]

I need to get a set of each to try the ones I have now are a little soft for me, Im trying to find that happy medium. Dont like the obvious click but want some tactile response maybe a stiffer spring in the button vs the switch??

A higher force requirement in activating a switch for primary pushbutton controls is almost never a positive thing.  If you are a bit heavier handed than some, you are far better off increasing the spring resistance of the button, than by using a switch with a heavier activation requirement.

A heavier activation requirement in a micro, brings with it a very different switch dynamic or "user experience".  First of all, it will be louder.  Heavier spring tension means a harder snap of the contacts which means a much more pronounced and obvious "clack".  Second, there is what I like to call the "drop-out" effect.  The way a microswitch works internally is that there is a lever (with one of the contacts at the end) and a spring providing tension on it.  When you press down, the resistance will gradually increase as you approach the "snap" point.  Once the snap occurs, the resistance virtually disappears, which causes one to "fall through" the travel, going further down with the plunger than one needs to.  The switch then needs to move up to a distance higher than the snap point, in order to reset it, so it can snap again.  As the "drop-out" effect tends to leave one well below the point of actual activation, it's very difficult to rapidly cycle switches with higher actuation force ratings where this effect is amplified.

Before you possibly waste time and money on heavier switches, simply remove the springs from one of your buttons and give it a small stretch.  Do it a little at a time, as it's much easier to increase the length than decrease it!  You may find that the little bit of extra resistance you get from doing this will provide the feel you want, without giving you the negative aspects of a harder to actuate microswitch.

RandyT

[RandyT]

75g Cherry (the standard switch for years and the weight more standard Happ or IL buttons are sold with)

I'm not sure where you are getting this info, but it is false.  If you are going by the rating of the part they show in the exploded view in their catalog, those specs are not correct, and don't reflect what they have been actually shipping with the buttons.  75g switches are quite hard actuating compared to the Cherry switches that were shipped with standard HAPP buttons for the last ~10 years they used them.  There was, in fact, a rash of complaints from users here when HAPP switched to 50g E-Switch switches from the ~35g (actual test measurements) Cherry switches.  The general consensus from users here has been that 50g is barely passable for general use, with something lower being much preferred.

I can't say for certain what IL was doing during that time, but lumping those two companies together simply because there was cross-over in their offerings is very misleading.  HAPP even supplied their own switches on the IL pushbuttons (and joysticks) they offered, so regardless of what IL was pushing on the Euro market, it wasn't happening at HAPP.

[Dr Zero]

I need to get a set of each to try the ones I have now are a little soft for me, Im trying to find that happy medium. Dont like the obvious click but want some tactile response maybe a stiffer spring in the button vs the switch??

Before you possibly waste time and money on heavier switches, simply remove the springs from one of your buttons and give it a small stretch.  Do it a little at a time, as it's much easier to increase the length than decrease it!  You may find that the little bit of extra resistance you get from doing this will provide the feel you want, without giving you the negative aspects of a harder to actuate microswitch.

RandyT

Yeah that is what I was thinking about was to stretch the spring some and see how that does and if still not happy then try the different switch go the cheaper route first LOL

Since this seems to be a big question, I put together a little pack and I'll throw it up on the website soon. 
5.50 with shipping(First Class)
1 Happ concave black horizontal microswitch pushbutton and 4 microswitches:
20g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
50g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
75g Cherry (the standard switch for years and the weight more standard Happ or IL buttons are sold with)
125 gram generic (I would not suggest playing with this, but I have extras so we are throwing it in to give you an idea of what heavy is like)

This way people can, for a low cost, get an idea of what the differences are between different weights and know what weight you are testing.  All the name brand micros are coil spring based, and should be similar if not identical to all the major players on the market who have similar micros.  If anyone wants priority, it would be 8.50 total. 

When the Rollies come in we'll figure out a set to include them also... Game on !

Might have to get a set just see what the differences are in person, thanks for taking the time to put this together for us.

[armi0024]

Randy is there a particular reason you feel it is appropriate to make these threads negative?
The Happ buttons I have are original Happ from before Happ switched to E-switch.  

Next time, before getting negative on the forums, please just pm or email.  This negative tone with misinformation does not help the community at all.

I stand by my statements of force and hope the kit might help some people with their decision regardless of who they go with.

I need to get a set of each to try the ones I have now are a little soft for me, Im trying to find that happy medium. Dont like the obvious click but want some tactile response maybe a stiffer spring in the button vs the switch??

Before you possibly waste time and money on heavier switches, simply remove the springs from one of your buttons and give it a small stretch.  Do it a little at a time, as it's much easier to increase the length than decrease it!  You may find that the little bit of extra resistance you get from doing this will provide the feel you want, without giving you the negative aspects of a harder to actuate microswitch.

RandyT

Yeah that is what I was thinking about was to stretch the spring some and see how that does and if still not happy then try the different switch go the cheaper route first LOL

Since this seems to be a big question, I put together a little pack and I'll throw it up on the website soon.  
5.50 with shipping(First Class)
1 Happ concave black horizontal microswitch pushbutton and 4 microswitches:
20g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
50g Zippy (Switches shown in Project Arcade)
75g Cherry (the standard switch for years and the weight more standard Happ or IL buttons are sold with)
125 gram generic (I would not suggest playing with this, but I have extras so we are throwing it in to give you an idea of what heavy is like)

This way people can, for a low cost, get an idea of what the differences are between different weights and know what weight you are testing.  All the name brand micros are coil spring based, and should be similar if not identical to all the major players on the market who have similar micros.  If anyone wants priority, it would be 8.50 total.  

When the Rollies come in we'll figure out a set to include them also... Game on !

Might have to get a set just see what the differences are in person, thanks for taking the time to put this together for us.

[RandyT]

Randy is there a particular reason you feel it is appropriate to make these threads negative?
The Happ buttons I have are original Happ from before Happ switched to E-switch.  

Next time, before getting negative on the forums, please just pm or email.  This negative tone with misinformation does not help the community at all.

I stand by my statements of force and hope the kit might help some people with their decision regardless of who they go with.

I'm not entirely sure what you are on about, but there are some basic facts that you have wrong, and that is my only concern.  "Who they go with" is irrelevant, but a bit telling about your concerns.

If you have HAPP buttons from before they went to the E-Switches, they are not sporting 75g switches.  They would be horrendous to use for any amount of time.  A little time reading posts here would make that pretty clear, and it's really not something that requires "trying out" to understand.  But I have no problem with those who wish to.  Not sure why you would think I did.

[8BitMonk]

Just wanted to say that I got my Electric Ice buttons with True-Leaf switches setup and they are fan-freaking-tastic. Hardly a sound, no click, super light to the touch and of course they look great lit up. A bit costly but overall I'm really happy with them.

[armi0024]

For clarification:

1) Micros are typically rated to "maximum activation force", so it is possible for a 75 gram to activate at a value under 75 grams, on another note, this means that "20 gram microswitches" will activate at less than 20g of force

2) While I realize there has been some disagreement on whether Happ lists accurate specifications specifications, they very clearly list the microswitches as 75gram, as shown here. Or if you want to skip Happ and go by Cherrycorp specifications, you can see the 75 gram specification here. KWJA in the K series micros

3) IL microswitches are a different series of Cherry switches, the D44X, which are also rated to 75 grams and can be seen here: D44X.

As these are "maximum operating forces specified by both Happ and the manufacturer, actual tested values may be lower...kind of like "This product may contain one or more of the following..."

I think the important part for people deciding buttons is that different micros have different feels.  Getting back to the speaker analogy, I dislike Bose and love B&W, why? because I do. I think arcade controls are the same.  Regardless of the exact gram weight on the microswitch, tested or rated, Cherrys are different than 50 gram Zippys are different than 20 gram Zippys and all of them are better than 125 gram Chinese micros.  My goal was to offer people who are curious, an inexpensive opportunity to try a few different switches out.

[RandyT]

For clarification:

1) Micros are typically rated to "maximum activation force", so it is possible for a 75 gram to activate at a value under 75 grams, on another note, this means that "20 gram microswitches" will activate at less than 20g of force

They state this simply because they cannot absolutely control the activation force.  It will even be slightly different from one activation to the next, due to the way the mechanism works.  This does not, however, mean that a 75g switch will activate at 35g or even 50g and still be considered to be "in spec".  A switch with a specific force rating will activate at a force value very close to the rated force requirement.

2) While I realize there has been some disagreement on whether Happ lists accurate specifications specifications, they very clearly list the microswitches as 75gram, as shown here. Or if you want to skip Happ and go by Cherrycorp specifications, you can see the 75 gram specification here. KWJA in the K series micros

They very clearly list the specs for a microswitch they offer, not specifically the ones they ship with their buttons.  They have never shipped a 75g switch as standard in their buttons in the 8 years I have been selling them.  If they had, people here would have been rejoicing when they switched to the 50g E-switch instead of complaining.  The posts are here, and you can look if you'd like.

3) IL microswitches are a different series of Cherry switches, the D44X, which are also rated to 75 grams and can be seen here: D44X.

What IL does wasn't the point of contention, rather your incorrect assertion that HAPP has been using 75g switches as standard with their buttons.  Folks who already have these buttons will incorrectly assume from your erroneous statement that they have 75g switches in them, when in fact they will be much less.  This will cause confusion of well-established facts and lead to folks being disappointed and / or wasting money when they try to replace the switches using the numbers you are incorrectly providing.  This is my concern, and no other.

As for what are "reasonable" force ratings, even you are indicating that high force requirements are worse than lower ones, because it's rather obvious.  But I absolutely encourage folks to not only try them, but use them for extended periods and for different gaming genres.  It will be pretty obvious, pretty quickly, the direction one needs to go to cover the bases, and do it comfortably.

[armi0024]

Picture of Happ microswitch:


Product specification for Cherry :KWJA, KW=series, J=force 75g, A UL temperature rating
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/k.htm

If anyone is confused by this discussion and would like to talk microswitches, please pm me, I'd be happy to talk more about it in pm or email.

I am at a bit of loss for why there is an argument here when I am posting information directly from Happ and Cherry based on the product numbers shown above on the Happ buttons.

Since I really can't elaborate this point anymore, I will stop here.  If you need me, I'll be playing some Joust or maybe I'll have some fun with the Vectrex

[RandyT]

Product specification for Cherry :KWJA, KW=series, J=force 75g, A UL temperature rating
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/k.htm

I have a number of the pictured switches here.  They are HAPP branded switches, so you shouldn't expect the specs associated with the Cherry model numbers to reign supreme.  After the initial letters, there is only a number, rather than the typical letters of a complete part number.  That number is likely an internal specification for an OEM customer.  There's no way to be sure what that internal specification indicates.

When tested on my lab scale, these actuate at right around 38g, which is a far cry from 75g.  This is why it's important to actually do the legwork to verify some of these supposed specs before passing them on to others who don't have the ability to do so.

The 50g E-Switch people have complained about replacing them is louder, a fair bit harder to actuate and by no surprise, actuates very close to 50g.