HTPC / Console Emu Planning help needed

[atomikbohm]

I just got the okay from the boss (aka my wife) to build a HTPC / console emulator. 

My requirements are:
1) "Don't go overboard" (It's like she doesn't even know me  )
2) Be able to run Netflix and Hulu on the home TV
3) Emulate some consoles ( I was thinking SNES (BSNES), NES (Nestopia), Sega Genesis (Kega)
4) Not really a requirement but, I really want to put it in a SNES shell like Vigo's Project (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107220.0)

The Biggest Hogs on the System requirements are BSNES and Hulu.  The both require Core2Duo processors. (the phenom processors produce a lot more heat if what I've read is correct)

What I'm looking for advise on is:
1) How fast of a processor do I need to get smooth picture (no skips or system slow downs)
2) I was thinking of Mini ITX form factor as it seemed to have worked for Vigo.  Anyone have any suggestions on what MoBo to use?  (would like to do this as cheep as possible)
3) On Board Video or a separate card?
4) Suggestions on Power supplies?  I would like to get it out of the case, cause of ventilation concerns, with something like this http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/it.A/id.417/.f but not sure how reliable it is or how hot it is in-case.

I have more questions but I'll stop here for now

[JODY]

1) I doubt you would have issues with any Core2Duo but I would stay mid-range and above.
2) Check out reviews at newegg.com.  Personally the best MoBos I've used have been built by Gigabyte.  They have always worked with no issues, great BIOS and software upgrade programs, etc.  I've used them for all recent builds and can't speak highly enough of them.  Asus is also a highly rated brand.  There are many possible boards from these two companies.  Pick based on reviews, features, size, etc.
3) On Board Video is enough for emulation and HTPC.  I am using the onboard video on one of the Gigabyte boards for an HTPC.
4) I have not done any builds in a mini form factor and can't provide any recommendations in this area other than to say check out reviews at newegg.com.

[atomikbohm]

Any one have any ideas on Power supplies and heat management? 

[ark_ader]

Buy a Playstation 3   

[JODY]

Depending on what you want to do a PC is much more flexible than a Playstation 3.  I'm posting this from my HTPC...but you won't catch me doing that on the PS3.

For power, a Google search turns up a lot of potential options:  http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=power+supply+for+mini+pc&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85

Down a ways on the first page is a link to an Athena power supply.  It has good reviews on NewEgg.  It is not very tall or wide but is 6 inches deep.  
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338045&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Power+Supplies-_-Athena+Power-_-17338045

If interested, I have a cab I bought from a guy that has a PC board mounted to the side.  I believe the power supply is similar to one for an Xbox 360 in that you plug it in and a cord runs to the motherboard.  The power supply is encased in plastic and may sit on the floor, shelf, etc. In other words, like a laptop power supply.  If you'd like, I can try to find more info on it.

[atomikbohm]

thanks for the responses.

After starting this thread saying that I'm committed to a core 2 duo I'm wondering if I might have been too hasty.  Is there a comparable AMD processor that can keep up with the core 2 duos? (i.e. run the later versions of BSNES, Hulu, and netflix at full speed)

I was looking at E6750 ,E6850, or E8190 or better.  Depending on Price (i.e. FSB 1333 and clock of 2.66Ghz or faster) I wanted to avoid getting to full load on the processor but didn't want to spend $100 on the processor either.

Buy a Playstation 3   

ark_ader, The thought of buying a console system (ps3, Xbox360, or Wii) had crossed my mind.  But I don't what to have to mess with modding a console and I like the flexibility that a PC offers.

Jody, thanks for the suggestion I'm liking the Athena, that thing is small and about the same price for almost twice the wattage.  I think I see where you are going on keeping the power supply out of the case.  The questions that come to mind are, Do the cords have enough length to reach inside my case and how do I keep the cords from getting yanked out?  The reason I liked the mini-box Power supplies is the cord outside of the case is detachable (but low wattage, and I have no idea how reliable they are.  I can't imagine the having induction coils exposed inside your pc case is a good thing.)

[JODY]

Yes, there are AMD CPUs that will keep up with the Core2Duo.  I have a triple core AMD on my HTPC and another newer quad core.  I paid under $100 for the triple core and now there are faster versions available.  Check out the processor prices on the NewEgg website.

The easiest way I know of to compare performance between AMD & Intel CPUs is to review the graphs here:  http://www.cpubenchmark.net/   You should be able to get an AMD with the performance you want for well under $100 for the CPU.

The cords on external power supplies are usually fairly long but you would need to check as they vary.  Depends on the length you need and where you plan to have the MoBo vs. the power supply.  As far as pulling out, best protection would be to have them situated to prevent them from getting snagged / pulled to begin with.  If you tried to prevent it from coming out when it was pulled it might wind up damaging something.

[severdhed]

i was just sitting here for the last few days planning out the same kind of project..(i was also inspired by that SNES pc thread).  I have been throwing around alot of ideas lately, but haven't made a choice one way or the other.  here are my thoughts so far:

first of all, my goal.   I currently have a modded original xbox that i use for console emulators, and to run xbmc. the xbox works great for console emulators.  i absolutely love xbmc, it works really well for viewing pictures and listening to music, and handles just about any video format you can throw at it....except it chokes on hi def video. (accessing media I recently picked up a pocket video camera that records hi def .mov files, which just don't play well on my xbox.  i have a ps3 and a 360 that i have been trying to use to replace my xbox, and while they have the horse power to handle the hi-def video, they don't support enough different formats (especially .mov and .mkv) and the interface is just not as straight forward as the xbmc.  plus, without modification, they dont run emulators.

do be able to view my home movies, i hooked up my main PC to my projector and use a wireless mouse and keyboard to control it.  THis pc is where i store all of my videos/pics/music and I also end up using RDP to control this pc remotely alot...my point is, i dont want to use this pc as a dedicated HTPC because i need it to do to many other things.

so the way I look at it, i have two options:

1. go the mini ITX route, install it in a snes or similar cool enclosure.  this makes for a very cool little unit.  however they are not nearly as powerful as a larger PC.  

2. build a small but more versatile unit with a micro atx board.  this would allow for more hardware options, and a much more powerful computer.

alot of this depends on what software you intend on running.  I am leaning heavily towards xbmc, simply because it supports so many different formats and is very flexible.  there is a linux based  stand alone version of xbmc that apparently works very well on mini itx boards with nvidia ion graphics.  the problem with that, is that linux is a pain in the butt and i dont know if i could get my emulators running properly on it.  if i have to install xp on the itx system, i dont know if it will run as well.  i have xbmc running on my main PC and it has plenty of power to handly hi-def video and emulators.  (athlon x2 5000, 4gb ram, radeon x3400 graphics).  

i have also played around with boxee, which is pretty slick as well.  it doesn't handle local files nearly as well as xbmc, but it has built in support for pandora radio, hulu, and netflix....things that xbmc doesn't handle very well.  i don't really need hulu, pandora works ok on xbmc, and i have a ps3 and 360 that i can use for netflix.   it would be nice to have it all in one place, but i just dont see how to do that.

maybe there is other software out there that i havent tried, but as far as I can tell, a micro atx system, running windows and xbmc is probably the way I am going to go.  i have to test out the built in emulator support in xbmc, but if that sucks, i'll probably set up MaLa for the emulators.  

I'd really love to go with a itx system, but i just dont think it is worth with putting the money into something that is underpowered.  perhaps i am wrong, and i'd love to hear someone else's opinion on the subject.

i didn't mean to hijack your thread, i just figured i'd share my thought process on this subject.  

oh...and if your snes emulator requires a core2duo, then maybe you should look at a different emulator.  the snes emulator on the xbox (snes9x) runs great, and it is basically a celeron 733, with 64mb of ram. 

[atomikbohm]

Severdhed -

1. go the mini ITX route, install it in a snes or similar cool enclosure.  this makes for a very cool little unit.  however they are not nearly as powerful as a larger PC. 

2. build a small but more versatile unit with a micro atx board.  this would allow for more hardware options, and a much more powerful computer.

I didn't know that there was a performance loss on ITX (or mini Itx) boards.  Can you tell me more about this and / or ?

oh...and if your snes emulator requires a core2duo, then maybe you should look at a different emulator.  the snes emulator on the xbox (snes9x) runs great, and it is basically a celeron 733, with 64mb of ram. 

There are a couple of reasons I'm going with a higher power processor.  i.e. Hulu Desktop (requires a 1.8 core 2 duo or equivalent and like 2 Gb of ram) and Bsnes of course (2.6 Ghz core 2 duo -I think)

As far as why BSNES? Accuracy and compatibility.  If I'm going to go to the financial and time investments into a project like this I want to be able to play the games I remember playing the way I remember playing them.  see what I mean here http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=0995
Besides it's not as big of a deal as you might think.  I just picked up a AMD Phenom x2 550 3.1 GHz Dual Core AM3 Processor off eBay for $55. 

I'm still trying to decide on a mother board.  From Severdhed's comments on ITX boards I may not be as prepared as I thought.  Can anyone elaborate?  I was planning on buying a AM3 socket MoBo that had HDMI out and the ability to unlock additional cores on my processor.  A decent on board Video card would be nice too.  (I was thinking about buying a ASUS M4A88T-I Deluxe (http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=jGAoIFEziW5sPYy7) any thoughts?

[severdhed]

i havent looked at any am3 based mini itx boards, most of the itx stuff i was looking at was for running Atom processors, which just aren't really comparable to something like a phenom 2.

that asus board looks really nice, a little pricey, but very nice.  something like that should work fine. 

here is what i am leaning towards.
ASUS M4A785-M Micro ATX motherboard
AMD Athlon II X2 250 3.0ghz cpu
4gb ram
500GB SATA hard drive
microatx slim case

that should be more than enough to handle 1080p video through xmbc and any emulators i throw at it.  all for about $285

sure it would be cool like a snes pc, but the price is good.

the big problem with making a snes pc, is that the snes doesn't give you alot of room to work with inside.  if you look at the most of the snes pc mods, they are using mini itx boards with atom processors and fanless cooling.  if you are going with an am3 board and running an athlon 2 or phenom 2 processor, you are going to need a heatsink with a fan.  which will probably not fit inside.  then there is the power supply issue.  the board you referenced doesnt have a external power supply, so you have to find a way to fit a power supply inside the case with it.

i really love this idea, but i just don't see how to get a reasonably powered system in such a small case.  sure, the nvidia ion based mini itx boards with a dual core atom processor is enough to run xmbc in linux, but then everything like setting up emulators is 10x more difficult because it is linux.  from what i have read, xbmc doenst support hardware accelerated video playback under windows, which means it probably won't be able to hande 1080p video smoothly under windows.

[atomikbohm]

severdhed - My build is a lot like yours.    I figure I can lower voltages and reduce heat with a more meaty processor.

CPU - AMD Phenom x2 550 3.1 GHz - $55 (eBay) the Phenom II's all have 4 cores on them but it's a crap shoot if any of the extra's work.
MoBo - Asus M4A88T-I DELUXE $130.00 (superbiiz.com)
RAM - Crucial 2GB DDR3 1333MHz SODIMM x2 - $40.00 (nanosys1.com)
Power Supply - APEVIA ITX-AP250W 250W Mini ITX - $47.00 (Amazon.com)
Case - Broken SNES - $20 (Craig's List)
HDD - 120Gb SATA - $0 (It's collecting dust in my basement right now)

Totaling $292 with a SNES USB interface and a couple of case fans outstanding.

I have been thinking about the lack of space for good air flow and I was thinking of mounting the MoBo facing down.  that way I can mod the bottom half of the case as needed (thinking big fan blowing up onto the MoBo.  Depending on the heat sink I may have construct an extension to insert between the top and bottom halves of the case for added space and air flow.  It'll change the looks but hopefully not too much.

Anyone have any advise on my choice of components?  Or construction?  So far I've only committed to the processor but will probably buy the Mobo and Ram this weekend.

[severdhed]

sounds like a nice setup.  how do you plan on fitting the power supply inside that snes?  i hope you find a way to do this because I am so torn on which way to go.  a big part of me wants a tiny pc in an snes, but the practical adult in me is saying."you already have a pc sitting on the floor right next to the av rack that is more than capable of running xbmc and emulators...why spend the money on something like this"