Mike Tyson's Punchout Emulation

[gman314]

Let me start off by saying that I have been playing Mike Tyson's Punchout, off and on, for over 20 years.  It is one of those select games that I have actually taken pride in my skills.  On the original NES console (and on an old CRT TV) I have routinely dominated the game (including defeating Tyson himself).

Here is the issue.  I have Punchout emulated on my arcade cab (using VirtualNes, an NES USB joypad, and using a 15" LCD monitor).  The problem is, under these conditions, I am unable to defeat Tyson.  In addition to that, even Super Macho Man and Mr. Sandman have been giving me problems.  It could be the unfortunate truth, but I have difficulty in accepting the possibility that my skills have dimished so drastically.   

My theory is that there may be an ever so slight timing difference on the original NES cartridge when compared to emulated versions of the game.  This timing difference wouldn't be noticeable on easier opponents, but would be deadly when you are trying to dodge one of Tyson's uppercuts.  Has anyone else noticed a timing difference or is it just my imagination?  I am almost ready to dig out my old NES (along with an old TV) in order to prove this to myself.  But I figured that it would be easier to first get input from others that may have experienced this.  Thanks for any and all input.   

[Dazz]

I beat Tyson just the other night on my cabinet, but I'm using Nestopia.  I also use original NES controllers and ports that I have wired to my cabinet using 4NES/4SNES chip from raphnet.net.  I don't have any issues with Tyson or even the speeder bike level on Battletoads.

[RayB]

How old is the monitor? What kind of display latency does it have? Is the emulator doing triple buffering and graphics enhancements that would add even more latency?

[hypernova]

Chad was a fervent advocate that there is a timing issue on any emulation of that particular game.

[Hoopz]

Chad was a fervent advocate that there is a timing issue on any emulation of that particular game.

I remember that. 

Maybe Maximrecoil has some insight as I believe he has the original equipment at home.  He may also be a record holder on it too.  I may not have the right game but I know he's more than fond of it. 

[Gorotsuki]

If it's not the timing of the emulation,
then it's the controls.
I can beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out any time
on the actual Nintendo, but can't even get to him
via emulation.

[MaximRecoil]

Chad was a fervent advocate that there is a timing issue on any emulation of that particular game.

I remember that. 

Maybe Maximrecoil has some insight as I believe he has the original equipment at home.  He may also be a record holder on it too.  I may not have the right game but I know he's more than fond of it. 

Yeah, not the right game. I have a Super Punch-Out arcade machine and a Punch-Out boardset that I can swap into it. I have the Twin Galaxies record for high score on Super Punch-Out. These are the original arcade games from 1984, while Mike Tyson's Punch-Out is a loose NES port from 1987.

I'm not very good at Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, and I hated it when I first tried it in '87 because it didn't measure up to the two arcade Punch-Out games that I played frequently at the time. I've come to appreciate it as a decent game in its own right, but it is not one of my favorites, and I've never played it enough to beat it. Given that, I have no idea if there are timing differences between emulation and the real NES hardware or not; though it would not surprise me in the least if there were; in fact, it would surprise me if there weren't.

There are definitely timing differences between MAME and the two arcade Punch-Out games though, as well as slight input lag. With Punch-Out, the differences don't matter much, but with Super Punch-Out they are critical because it is faster paced and most of the fighters have special one-hit-knockdown moves; and those differences (particularly the slight input lag) make the game significantly harder once you get to about a half-million points.

[gman314]

Well, I compared the Playchoice-10 version of Tyson's Punchout to the emulated version on VirtualNES (I also tried FCE Ultra).  It seems that the timing of the Playchoice version is slightly closer to the original hardware than the other two emulators.  I was able to at least make it to Tyson on the Playchoice version. Sandman's uppercuts and Macho's spin punches seemed pretty close to the original, yet Tyson's uppercuts still seemed less forgiving than what I remember on the NES.  I guess I will break out the old NES over the next few days and make another comparison.  The only thing that concerns me is that my NES will be hooked up to a 40" Samsung LED TV (not very authentic).  Has anyone actually tried comparing the original NES version to different emulated versions?

By the way, MaiximRecoil, you owe it to yourself to give Mike Tyson's Punchout another try.  Once you look past the fact that it is vastly different from the original (pretty much similar in name only), you may realize that it is one of the greatest games of all time.    

[Malenko]

I guess Im one of the few that can beat it via emulation but not on the real deal

[Jack Burton]

The issue of speed input/lag  in gaming is so varied and nuanced that it's hard for me to make a post about it.  I think it would end up being 2 or 3 pages long to really give it a good explanation.

However it really boils down to a few things in order of importance and easy of troubleshooting.

1. Display type

-Many displays have input delay that can be turned off or reduced.  CRT's are considered the best.  

2. Input type

-Converter boxes like a PS2>USB box can add input delay and dropping of inputs.  USB encoders like the Cthulhu are tested for very quick response, and PS/2 encoders like the J-pac and I-pac are also great.

3. Emulator/Port accuracy

-Many emulators and ports are not accurate enough to provide exact speed emulation and may be a little slower or faster than the real thing.  Some have input delay that cannot be eliminated.

4. Emulator/Port settings

-Some features of emulators like Triple Buffering can add input delay.  Turn them off for the quickest response.  Also try running in the native resolution of the game.  Some emulators run better in a window, some in full screen.  You'll have to figure out what settings are best.  

5. Emulator Hardware

-Most emulators run on PC's that have a lot of things going on in the background that the emulator has to taken into effect.  This can lead to input delay/dropped inputs.  Running your emulator on a clean, simple install of your OS of choice is best.  

[Hoopz]

Chad was a fervent advocate that there is a timing issue on any emulation of that particular game.

I remember that. 

Maybe Maximrecoil has some insight as I believe he has the original equipment at home.  He may also be a record holder on it too.  I may not have the right game but I know he's more than fond of it. 

Yeah, not the right game. I have a Super Punch-Out arcade machine and a Punch-Out boardset that I can swap into it. I have the Twin Galaxies record for high score on Super Punch-Out. These are the original arcade games from 1984, while Mike Tyson's Punch-Out is a loose NES port from 1987.

I'm not very good at Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, and I hated it when I first tried it in '87 because it didn't measure up to the two arcade Punch-Out games that I played frequently at the time. I've come to appreciate it as a decent game in its own right, but it is not one of my favorites, and I've never played it enough to beat it. Given that, I have no idea if there are timing differences between emulation and the real NES hardware or not; though it would not surprise me in the least if there were; in fact, it would surprise me if there weren't.

There are definitely timing differences between MAME and the two arcade Punch-Out games though, as well as slight input lag. With Punch-Out, the differences don't matter much, but with Super Punch-Out they are critical because it is faster paced and most of the fighters have special one-hit-knockdown moves; and those differences (particularly the slight input lag) make the game significantly harder once you get to about a half-million points.

Oops, my fault.  I should have gone back and looked at his posts to see what the game was.   

[gman314]

So I guess I would be justified if in blaming the emulation as to the reason why I am having difficulty with Tyson.  I hate to make excuses, but I guess its ok in this case.  Tyson is tough, but not tough to the point that he's impossible!  I guess I have new challenge to overcome now.    

[gman314]

Does anyone know of any other emulated games that are known to have timing issues?

[Jack Burton]

Does anyone know of any other emulated games that are known to have timing issues?

Really, all of them.  From what I know every emulator that exists for arcade and console game still has some issues to iron out, and the nature of how PC's work will always make for some differences.  

However, it's possible to make those differences so neglible that a human being could never notice the difference between the emu and the real thing.

As to your specific question, I have encountered this issue heavily with my favorite arcade game, Super Street Fighter II Turbo.

Every emulated and ported version of that game is either too slow or too fast.  It doesn't help that the community can't settle on the US or Japanese version of the game either.  They are also different speeds.  

[postmortem]

I Always felt that mike tyson's punshout was slightly faster on emulator than on the nes. I too was able to beat tyson many times on the NES and it seems a lot harder on the emulator.

[Jack Burton]

One more thing to be aware of is that there are timing differences between NTSC and PAL versions of games.

If you play a PAL game on an NTSC system it will result in the game running too fast.  This is due to PAL expecting a refresh rate of 50hz instead of NTSC's 60hz.  PAL games for nintendo systems were designed to run faster to compensate for this.  

The same goes for emulators and roms.  If you force a PAL rom to run in NTSC mode it may run too fast.  Always check that you are using the right rom from the right region, and that your emulator is set up to also run as the right region console for the rom.

This also holds true for when you use the "sync to monitor refresh" option in mame.  It will cause the game to run at the speed that the monitor is refreshing at.  This can cause a game to run either too slow or too fast depending on the game.