Getting a new control panel made

[pinballwizard79]

Alright all you veterans & maybe even some insightful noobs, hook me up with some good advice.

I am getting a 4 player control panel made, but it will be special. Firstly I am not cramming 4 players into the panel, only two & thats just because I am a chrome plated typical big ass American. My arcade machine is a showcase style cabinet so a janky surfboard sized frankenpanel is already approved by the CP gods.

I want to play.....

Tron
Defender
Asteriods
Centepide
GoldenTee
Fighters
Classic 4 way games like DKII  

Hardware...

2 chrome recessed cup holders
8 way flight stick (do I really need analog)
push/pull GGG spinner
4 way tornado terry joy
happ 3" trackball
8 ways with 7 jump/fire config

I made a mock up in NCC's panel designer for you guys to look at. The orange button represents the push/pull spinner & the green trackballs are there to stand in as the 3.5" stainless cupholders. Attached are pics of 2 panels I really like as far as layout, plus a pic of my panel (my gameroom is a mess now due to monitors & motherboards exploding).

Input, insults & ideas are welcome.

PW79

PS Most colors on the NCC mock up are just there because I clicked diff colors randomly. I am going to have blue & black buttons with the exception of 3 blue LED buttons by the trackball

[drventure]

Nothin' wrong with a 4p CP. Whachooo talkin' bout, wiz?

Anyhoo. That last pic with the blue flames looks like a quite nice layout, built in cup holders, double sticks for some games, etc. Just mount the track ball plate below decks, please!

Wait, I just reread that. Is the one with the blue flames yours already?

[mytymaus007]

I want to play.....

Tron
Defender
Asteriods
Centepide
GoldenTee
Fighters
Classic 4 way games like DKII 


OK how about this  you Cant get anymore specific then your games you listed. Your first 3 games is what my CP was based on. Most other CP's are set for fighters, YES you can play any games with them but Asteroids and Defender NOT like the original. AHH Golden TEE I would suggest you move the ball to the middle. Mine is off the the right because, I have An Orignal pacman stick in the middle. (4 way) plus alll 4 way s games, I dont play Golden tee or any games that you need to move the ball fast.

[severdhed]

I want to play.....

Tron
Defender
Asteriods
Centepide
GoldenTee
Fighters
Classic 4 way games like DKII 


OK how about this  you Cant get anymore specific then your games you listed. Your first 3 games is what my CP was based on. Most other CP's are set for fighters, YES you can play any games with them but Asteroids and Defender NOT like the original. AHH Golden TEE I would suggest you move the ball to the middle. Mine is off the the right because, I have An Orignal pacman stick in the middle. (4 way) plus alll 4 way s games, I dont play Golden tee or any games that you need to move the ball fast.

wow...that is an interesting choice for control panel layout.  i'm sure it makes sense to you, but that is very confusing to look at.  I hope you have some kind of diagram or something to explain to people what all of those controls are for....everything seems to be laid out so randomly.  i'm not trying to be rude, you clearly had a plan on what you wanted to accomplish....i just can't tell what that was.  to me, arcade games are awesome because of their simplicity.  anyone can walk up to an arcade game, insert a coin and pretty much figure out what to do in a matter of a few seconds.  I for one like to keep my mame panels as clean as possible, so that someone who has never seen my cabinets can walk up and start playing with very little instruction, and that it is simple enough so when they come back the second time, i don't have to go over everything again.  that panel gives me nightmares.

[pinballwizard79]

drventure yeah the blue flame CP is mine, I dont like it anymore though its not as polished as I want....lol not hating on 4 player panels broseph, just saying my proposed frankenpanel requires a lot of space due to the massive cupholders & every control except a damn paperboy & star wars yoke 

mytymaus007 I think since nothing other than almost flush buttons will be in front of it (as long as you move your beer) a person can put some swing into it without hitting much other than the spinner off to the left (represented by the orange button but still off a good distance since its a 4 player sized panel). Maybe I am wrong, its hard to say until its paid for & in my basement 

I really like the CP in pic 2, it seems perfect actually. My hopes are that if its stretched out on a 4 player panel I can work in the flight stick & cupholders & still have more room/space than this persons CP (I think this guy can play golden tee on there as is now no?). Guys am I seeing that panel right? referring to the 2nd one in my attachments......

The 3 buttons to the left of the trackball are indeed useful for games like missile command, centipede & golden tee right?
The 3 buttons above the trackball & to the right of the 4 way joy are great for defender & asteroids right?

Here are some closeups of this cats panel: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=77634.0 Did I mention that panel is like the absolute coolest ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ever?

Thanks for the info so far guys

[Xiaou2]

Personally, I dont get the cupholders.

  Many classics dont give you time to do much more than wipe the sweat off your hands.

 If you have more than 2 friends over, when its not their turn, they are not going to be reaching into the panel to grab a drink... and swapping drinks in and out of the holders would be asking for trouble Imop.

 (Cleaning spilled drinks on a cab is not cool.  It gets under the plexi, as well as in buttons,  & you have to take the entire panel apart to get it all back to normal)

 I think a better option would be a blower fan with vents that are pointed at the hands, keeping them dry and cool at all times.

 To each his own...

[Xiaou2]

to me, arcade games are awesome because of their simplicity.  anyone can walk up to an arcade game, insert a coin and pretty much figure out what to do in a matter of a few seconds.

 What you believe, and what was designed were two very different things.
 
 Defender for example, had a crazy control setup... and is Extremely difficult.. and became one of the top classics of all time.

 And Defender isnt even anywhere near as complex as some other classics.

 Im not a fan of his layout choices, but if he can play the games he loves the way they were meant to be played... then good for him.   

 Personally, Im a purist - and I cant stand to play classics without their original controls.

[arzoo]

Defender almost requires a dedicated cp layout to play well. At a minimum, you need to move the left thumb button (Reverse) very close to the joystick and the joystick should have a very short shaft.

[cmoses]

pinballwizard79,

I have never been a big fan of the type of control panel you are contemplating.  I understand that you are trying to recreate as many original layouts as possible to give you the best gaming experience, but I think that in doing so you are actually doing just the opposite.  You may understand what all the buttons, joysticks, flight sticks and spinners do, but anyone else would be so overwhelmed when approaching your control panel that they would not know where to begin.  Even though you are trying to recreate some specific layouts, Tron, Defender, Asteroids, Missile Command your really not.  Tron - probably the closest recreation, flight stick and spinner, but their placement is different from actual control panel.  Defender - no 2 way joystick, button layout close but still not accurate.  Asteroids - button layout close but still not accurate.  Missile Command - smaller trackball, buttons too close to trackball and not cone style.

I also think that cleaner and simpler is better.  I think your current layout is fine and would accomplish everything you want with maybe a few minor tweaks.  Replace your joysticks with U360 joysticks because of their versatility.  2 way, 4 way, 8 way, analog, diagonal, etc.  They should fit all your needs.  Move the spinner more into the middle but not above the trackball.  With these minor changes you can do the following.  Tron - use the player 2 joystick and the spinner.  Defender - use the player 1 joystick in 2 way mode and the player 1 buttons for the other functions.  Asteroids - Option 1: use player 1 joystick for rotate left and right and 3 player 1 buttons for other functions. Option 2: use 2 of player 1 buttons for rotate left and right and 3 of player 3 buttons for other functions. Missile Command - trackball and 3 buttons from player 1.  This keeps the control panel simple, yet still gives you the ability to play all your games without having a lot of extra buttons on there that are only used for 1 or at most a few games. 

No control panel will be able to replace all the options that are out there.  But keeping them simple makes for a better cleaner looking machine.  Makes it easier for new people to learn your machine, there is always a learning curve no matter what.  As far as the cup holders, I really don't think they belong on a control panel, but to each their own.  I just think you are asking for trouble with liquid that close to your control panel.  Spills are inevitable and could be costly.

[pinballwizard79]

So you guys dont like the first 2 panels I attached? I think those CP's are pretty damn sweet....the only thing I am adding to the 2nd panel shown is a flight stick & some cupholders, if people cant figure out those two additions then eff em  Frankly my frankenpanel is only for me & the seasoned vets that are fortunate enough to chill in my mancave BTW anyway.

Hmmmm, well "Screw you guys I'm going home" - Cartman

PS. Xiaou did you really just say control panel fans are more useful than a cupholder (where people drink & game)?

[Xiaou2]

but anyone else would be so overwhelmed when approaching your control panel that they would not know where to begin.

 Why would that matter?  Is he selling it?  Is he leaving it unattended in masses of people who he barely knows?

 Realistically, its his machine, and anyone who plays with it is probably playing with him, who can be instructed if/as needed.  It does not take rocket science to understand arcade controls. (and many people only play what games they know)

Replace your joysticks with U360 joysticks because of their versatility.  2 way, 4 way, 8 way, analog, diagonal, etc.  They should fit all your needs.

 This is personal opinion.   Real 4ways feel and react much better than all-in-one solutions.  Its pretty much the same with any  all-in-one  solution...  there is lacking somewhere.   If all in one was the best solution... then golfers would only ever use One single club.  Sure, it might be easier to carry one club... but, where performance, control, accuracy, etc... are concerned, no  all-in-one  club can match a full spectrum of clubs.

 If You dont feel accuracy and control is worth the expense of the Look... then that is your Opinion, based on your level of skill, depth of passion, and or experience with correct & or superior controls.

 (Some people could play a round of golf with a putter, and they simply wouldnt care either way... cause they dont do well, nor care about doing too well)

 

Tron - use the player 2 joystick and the spinner.

Many people cant play tron past the 1st level.  Trons joystick being specialized to make diagonals hard so that the light cycle stage isnt a total disaster. 

 Not only that... but there are many great Trigger stick games which you would lose if all you had was an 8way.

Defender - use the player 1 joystick in 2 way mode

 A typical Defender 2way has a short throw by means of leverage.   Using an 8way, and you have to move the stick much further in each direction... meaning slower reaction times on a Lighting fast game.   Also, if you accidentally hit in a non-2way direction, it feels wrong.. and causes some delay as well.

Missile Command - trackball and 3 buttons from player 1

 I agree with this... unless he is getting original cone buttons.

[mytymaus007]

wow...that is an interesting choice for control panel layout.  i'm sure it makes sense to you, but that is very confusing to look at.  I hope you have some kind of diagram or something to explain to people what all of those controls are for....everything seems to be laid out so randomly.  i'm not trying to be rude, you clearly had a plan on what you wanted to accomplish....i just can't tell what that was.  to me, arcade games are awesome because of their simplicity.  anyone can walk up to an arcade game, insert a coin and pretty much figure out what to do in a matter of a few seconds.  I for one like to keep my mame panels as clean as possible, so that someone who has never seen my cabinets can walk up and start playing with very little instruction, and that it is simple enough so when they come back the second time, i don't have to go over everything again.  that panel gives me nightmares.
[/quote]




Simplicity Since when were arcade games ever simple. I guess playing Asteroids with a joystick and a 6 button layout is simple which button is fire thrust or hyperspace Should i pucs up for thrust HAHAHA Oh good luck playing Defender OR even Stargate (Defender 2) LOL HMmmmm Let me think Ok let play pacman When the stick is off the Left or Right or even with an 8 way stick. How do you switch the 8 way to 4 way or a 45 degree angle. Sounds difficult if I have no idea about arcades. If simple is it then i would think to have a specific joystick for each typre of game would sum it up. WAIT I got "X Arcade" simple enough

[mytymaus007]

Defender almost requires a dedicated cp layout to play well. At a minimum, you need to move the left thumb button (Reverse) very close to the joystick and the joystick should have a very short shaft.

As long as you have the button layout and the reverse next the joystick which I do it doesnt have to be a short stick I have 8 way Wicos it plays awesome

[mytymaus007]

pinballwizard79,

I have never been a big fan of the type of control panel you are contemplating.  I understand that you are trying to recreate as many original layouts as possible to give you the best gaming experience, but I think that in doing so you are actually doing just the opposite.  You may understand what all the buttons, joysticks, flight sticks and spinners do, but anyone else would be so overwhelmed when approaching your control panel that they would not know where to begin.  Even though you are trying to recreate some specific layouts, Tron, Defender, Asteroids, Missile Command your really not.  Tron - probably the closest recreation, flight stick and spinner, but their placement is different from actual control panel.  Defender - no 2 way joystick, button layout close but still not accurate.  Asteroids - button layout close but still not accurate.  Missile Command - smaller trackball, buttons too close to trackball and not cone style.

I also think that cleaner and simpler is better.  I think your current layout is fine and would accomplish everything you want with maybe a few minor tweaks.  Replace your joysticks with U360 joysticks because of their versatility.  2 way, 4 way, 8 way, analog, diagonal, etc.  They should fit all your needs.  Move the spinner more into the middle but not above the trackball.  With these minor changes you can do the following.  Tron - use the player 2 joystick and the spinner.  Defender - use the player 1 joystick in 2 way mode and the player 1 buttons for the other functions.  Asteroids - Option 1: use player 1 joystick for rotate left and right and 3 player 1 buttons for other functions. Option 2: use 2 of player 1 buttons for rotate left and right and 3 of player 3 buttons for other functions. Missile Command - trackball and 3 buttons from player 1.  This keeps the control panel simple, yet still gives you the ability to play all your games without having a lot of extra buttons on there that are only used for 1 or at most a few games. 

No control panel will be able to replace all the options that are out there.  But keeping them simple makes for a better cleaner looking machine.  Makes it easier for new people to learn your machine, there is always a learning curve no matter what.  As far as the cup holders, I really don't think they belong on a control panel, but to each their own.  I just think you are asking for trouble with liquid that close to your control panel.  Spills are inevitable and could be costly.

pinballwizard79, i think you should forget about MAME and Just buy dedicated cabs to make everyone happy All in all you'll make it very simple not over welming for anyone and also have the correct layouts the way the games are supposed to be played!

[mytymaus007]

No control panel will be able to replace all the options that are out there.  But keeping them simple makes for a better cleaner looking machine.  Makes it easier for new people to learn your machine, there is always a learning curve no matter what.  As far as the cup holders, I really don't think they belong on a control panel, but to each their own.  I just think you are asking for trouble with liquid that close to your control panel.  Spills are inevitable and could be costly.
[/quote]


Enough with the simple and clean look How about no control panel at all Just 2 game pad dangleing down. Awsome anyone can use those. I even have a better idea Let's Order the book "CONTROL PANEL for DUMMIES" book #1 seller

[pinballwizard79]

So you guys really think the 2nd panel pictured is confusing? Hmmm, look if someone arcade savvy walks up to that panel & cant figure out how to play tempest, donkey kong, killer instinct or missile command then they need their ass kicked (anyone else visiting my house doesnt count anyway).

Thats the coolest, most straight forward & cleanest franken panel ever!

Guess I am alone on that thought, oh well story of my life 

[Xiaou2]

The biggest problem with that panel, and many Frankenpanels... is that the upper controls are not easy to use.  To get to that 4way, you have to rest your arms all over the player 1 buttons... and arm bashing into the player 1 joystick shaft.

 If you stack joysticks, you can solve that problem.  They can nearly be on top of each other, with only a slight horizontal deviation, and remain perfectly comfortable, not needing to rest your hands all over other control.  Also, the joy will be closer, and no long-stretch fatigue will be present as in most FnP cases.

 The trackball is also a tad too close to the p2 joy, and a good whip of it could cause some pain.


 And yeah, I believe it would be far better to have cool dry hands than to store beverages in the control panel.  I used to work at an arcade, and cleaning One spill in a machines was bad enough... let alone the several times that it happened.

 Imop, Better to make a spill proof drink tray that mounts to a wall... or mount holders on the cabinet sides where a lot less damage can occur... as well as no need to get in the way of peoples view while swapping drinks around.

[Xiaou2]

Dont know why i did this.. .but anyways, here is a design based on games you want to play most accurately... and the rough dimensions you posted.   It could be further optimized by keeping the panel edges much more squared.

 Not completely tested for accuracy of course... so some adjustment may be needed... but should be a design which does not have "arms-on-controls" issues, nor "reach-to-far" fatigue issues.

[Vigo]

My .02 cents: Go with modular panels. All the variety, no cluttered frankenpanel. Plus, if you suddenly gain a passion for a different style game (like racing), you can always build another panel later.

[cmoses]

Xiaou2

I have a control panel that is for MAME and is multifunctional.  It's not perfect but it allows me the most variety of games with the least amount of clutter and confusion.  I have had my machine on when friends are over, when we had parties at the house and for the most part people can just walk up and play a game.  It is very easy to look at my control panel and see 2 joysticks each with a grouping of buttons and figure it out from there.  I also have a trackball which is pretty self explanitory as well.  I do get the occassional question about buttons on a game or two, but those tend to be the more unique configurations, Defender, Stargate, Toobin.  I even setup my machine so that on single player games you can use either joystick or button group.   

Your all in one golf club arguement vs U360 is pathetic.  First off there isn't a club that can change its size, design, loft degree, shaft length for every unique shot.  The U360 can change for each game between 2 way, 4 way, 8 way, diagonal, analog and do a very good job of it.  Is it better than having a original joystick for each game you play, no.  Is it better than having multiple joysticks on your control panel, yes, most people think so.  It can't replace a trigger stick, so I can see why some people do want these on their control panels.

Your defender arguement is also bad, since he is not putting a 2 way joystick on the control panel he would still be using a 4 way or 8 way.  A U360 can replicate a 2 way vertical joystick very well.  It has a mapping that divides the full range of motion into 2 halfs, up and down, so any move in any direction would result in it registering either up or down even it it was a diagonal move.


mytymaus007,

I never mentioned having dedicated cabs, I understand wanting to get them most out of 1 machine.  I am the same way, I have a MAME cabinet because I only have room for 1 machine.       

[leapinlew]

but anyone else would be so overwhelmed when approaching your control panel that they would not know where to begin.

 Why would that matter?  Is he selling it?  Is he leaving it unattended in masses of people who he barely knows?

 Realistically, its his machine, and anyone who plays with it is probably playing with him, who can be instructed if/as needed.  It does not take rocket science to understand arcade controls. (and many people only play what games they know)

As someone who owns quite a few dedicated Mame machines (4 way, 8 way, trackball, driving, and spinner) and a jukebox I can attest to how confused people can be walking up to a machine with multiple controls. Heck, they have a problem with more than 1 set of controls. Even the Multi-Williams machine I had would confuse people.

The biggest issue with confused players is that they don't figure it out. They yell for support. This is a big problem if your in the middle of a conversation or playing another game.

If you entertain people, you will want to either make your machine as intuitive as possible or don't let them play it. Otherwise, you'll be answering questions all night. So, will he be leaving it unattended with masses of people? Hopefully. I can. Let them, or their kids play while you play host and visit. I don't want to baby sit my arcade simply because I have too many controls.

In an effort to make my games easy to understand I've taken the following steps:
Removed Admin buttons from the CP (except Coin up)
Coin up buttons are clearly marked as 25cent buttons
1 machine per function (for the most part) dedicated 4 way cabinet, spinner, driving, etc.
1 player starts the game on all cabinets
1+2 player ends a game on all the cabinets
use non-control inputs on the ipac (no shift, enter, or arrows)
Front end is shelled

There you go Xiaou, thats the reason to make a non-confusing control panel and the steps I've taken to ensure a enjoyable experience. I actually like the look of a clean CP. I suppose I could stand by the machine all night and give instructions, but who wants to do that?

[Xiaou2]

The U360 can change for each game between 2 way, 4 way, 8 way, diagonal, analog and do a very good job of it.  Is it better than having a original joystick for each game you play, no.  Is it better than having multiple joysticks on your control panel, yes, most people think so.

 The U360 does not have physical restriction, unless its an add-on, or something that requires opening up and changing things.

 If you have never played a game of Ms Pacman on a Real restricted 4way, then I can understand why you dont understand the value of one.  The responses are faster, directions more accurate, feel is much better.   Just because you can use a software solution does not make it a better solution.
 
 As for the "Most people" comment, I find it funny that you claim to know what others think and feel...  And or when these Noobs come around and actually get a real controller, instead of a lackluster hack.

A U360 can replicate a 2 way vertical joystick very well.

 It does not matter how well you can replicate the end result. It matters how much control, feel, and reaction time.   The Defender 2way stick will react faster, with less physical resistance (less fatigue & faster movement).  The short throw means superior leverage point for quicker reactions.  Leaf switches faster, less resistance... better than micros.  The shorter shaft also making the reverse button closer, faster, and easier to press with the same directional hand.

 When you add all the stuff up... any kind of hack just ruins the experience.   Its similar to wearing combat boots to a 100 yard dash race.  They will be clunky, awkward and slow.  You lose control, speed, feel, and performance.  If you dont care about being smoked by everyone else... then thats your prerogative.  But if you are a player that actually likes to do well in a game... you would invest in better control options... like many others have and do.

  Actually, I was once like you, not realizing the extreme differences of experiences of certain real controls.  But after some side by side comparisons, all of my opinions changed... and thus I scrapped all of my original plans / designs because of it.

 The most extreme example being Wico 8 way leaf joysticks, which are Essential for a good game in Robotron.  Anything else it Worthless.  (like carrying a person on your back in a 100 yard dash)

There you go Xiaou, thats the reason to make a non-confusing control panel and the steps I've taken to ensure a enjoyable experience.

 I understand the reasons.  But that does not mean its what Everyone desires... or that Everyone Should do.  Just because thats what you like, does not make it right or wrong.  Its called Opinion.

 Personally, I only have a few people over at a time, and Im there enjoying the stuff with them.  More times than not, Im playing on my own... and Im not one for lackluster experience.

 Some people are quite fine with a $20 set of headphones.  After hearing a $130 pair, I cant.. and I refuse, to go back with such a poor level of sound quality and loss. Its the same with pretty much everything for me.  The biggest problem is having the needed funds for my expensive tastes.

[leapinlew]

There you go Xiaou, thats the reason to make a non-confusing control panel and the steps I've taken to ensure a enjoyable experience.

 I understand the reasons.  But that does not mean its what Everyone desires... or that Everyone Should do.  Just because thats what you like, does not make it right or wrong.  Its called Opinion.

Thanks for explaining to me what opinions are  . I gave my opinion which is why I said "the steps I'VE taken". You don't agree with it? Who cares. Like you said, it's an opinion.

It does not take rocket science to understand arcade controls. (and many people only play what games they know)

This opinion followed up by your admittance to only having a few people over at a time shows a lack of experience to understanding how difficult arcade controls are for some people. If you had the same experience as those of us who entertain, I'm certain you would change your opinion.

Heres an opinion - be less forceful in your posts. You ever wonder why you're arguing on the internet so much? It's because you come off like a know-it-all jerk. Your style of debate is to try to belittle others to make your argument more plausible. It doesn't work.

[Xiaou2]

If you had the same experience as those of us who entertain, I'm certain you would change your opinion.

  If you like having over 20 young-guns who have never played anything other than a console fighter... you will want a dead simple panel.

 However, that isnt my ideal (opinion) way of entertaining.  Meaning, Id rather they play their xbox at their house, while me and my like minded 'classics-fans' can get busy with real controls as they were meant to be experienced.

 This isnt meant to be demeaning.  Its just that I dont go out of my way to be gentle and cuddly like a teddy bear.  However, 9 times out of 10, Im attacked or pushed first... and only react with the same volume after like the 2nd or 3rd attack.   And really, I could care less.  Im stating my opinion, not trying to win the internet over.

Its your Opinion to sacrifice game control-ability for larger social enjoyment.
Its my Opinion to sacrifice mass peoples, for greater enjoyment of the games.

 There is no right or wrong.  Only opinion on what matters most to that person.

I feel a person shouldnt be convinced that he should give up what he likes, just because the supposed "MOB consensus", all agree that 'everyone' should dance the same way, as they feel the need to push that dance upon others.

[Vigo]

[leapinlew]

You must not have read my post properly, or I have failed at conveying my thoughts

Its your Opinion to sacrifice game control-ability for larger social enjoyment.
Its my Opinion to sacrifice mass peoples, for greater enjoyment of the games.

If I'm sacrificing anything, except space and money. Since I enjoy quality controls and non-confused users I built multiple machines with authentic controls. For example, here is one of my machines:

Dedicated spinner cabinet. You will notice only the necessary buttons required to play tempest and a tempest knob on the spinner.

I also have a Donkey Kong with a Wico 4 way and 1 button. I chose Wico instead of a Nintendo stick because I prefer the controls of a Wico over the Nintendo 4 way. I don't want the control panel cluttered with buttons I don't use:


So, as you can see I'm not sacrificing playability - if anything I'm ensuring an authentic experience. I have the space to have multiple games that I enjoy. I also enjoy having my friends and their kids visit. Their kids can go into the gameroom while we visit and play the games. We usually all end up in the game room and the adults will play a game or two. Also, I like that the kids are getting exposed to good non-fighter style games. You would be surprised Xiaou at how much some of the kids love the classics. Not all of them, some of the kids are bored after 30 minutes, but most of the kids enjoying playing games like Frogger, Galaga, World Class Bowling, and Tempest.

To summarize, I believe you do not have to sacrifice controls to make a machine easy to use. There is nothing wrong with making a Mame machine that is intuitive for anyone to walk up to an play. Too many controls leads people to be intimidated and confused. If you don't have many people over and you will be the only user - than make a machine with a frankenpanel. If you have people over, and you have a frankenpanel - be prepared to assist people to play your cabinet.

Nothing gets people out of the enjoyment mood more than having to guess what the controls are and having someone staring over their shoulder while they play to tell them which button to hit.

[arzoo]

Defender almost requires a dedicated cp layout to play well. At a minimum, you need to move the left thumb button (Reverse) very close to the joystick and the joystick should have a very short shaft.

As long as you have the button layout and the reverse next the joystick which I do it doesn't have to be a short stick I have 8 way Wicos it plays awesome

It may play awesome but it won't play like the original. I own a Defender (and Stargate) and also have played with my mame rig - which uses a 2-way digitally restricted u360. The longer throw on the u360 plus the slightly longer reach to the thumb button makes a game that requires split second response time even harder. Just my opinion.  

[leapinlew]

Defender almost requires a dedicated cp layout to play well. At a minimum, you need to move the left thumb button (Reverse) very close to the joystick and the joystick should have a very short shaft.

As long as you have the button layout and the reverse next the joystick which I do it doesn't have to be a short stick I have 8 way Wicos it plays awesome

It may play awesome but it won't play like the original. I own a Defender (and Stargate) and also have played with my mame rig - which uses a 2-way digitally restricted u360. The longer throw on the u360 plus the slightly longer reach to the thumb button makes a game that requires split second response time even harder. Just my opinion.  

Both Xiaou and Arzoo are 100% correct. I bought a 2 way Defender stick with the intentions of building a full size standup, or bartop. My previous bartop:

The stick/reverse button placement were off just enough that it's holding me back from enjoying the game to it's fullest. Half the fun of playing a game as difficult as defender is doing well at it, and proper controls are important if you want to start crossing the 100k barrier on a regular basis. If your a casual player of defender (not sure how thats possible), an 8 way will do fine. I've also seen people play Centipede with an 8 way joystick, breakout style games with a joystick and be ok with it, so anything is possible.

[Vigo]

Both Xiaou and Arzoo are 100% correct.

I knew that posting a pic of the legless alpaca of happiness would help everyone see eye-to-eye. 

Half the fun of playing a game as difficult as defender is doing well at it, and proper controls are important if you want to start crossing the 100k barrier on a regular basis.

My rule of thumb has been: Games needing quick and calculated the movements = need low throw. Games needing Fluid, smooth motions, with finesse = need high throw.