4-Player CP Critiques/Suggestions

[51mmz0rz]

Hey everyone, great site, I especially enjoy browsing the CP image thread.  I am looking to take advantage of the Mameroom/Northcoast free shipping deal this weekend, and am looking for CP critiques/suggestions.  I am mostly interested in platformers (Contra/Ghouls 'n Ghosts) and fighters.  I would be ordering the panels only, buying the components and wiring everything myself.

I've attached an image of my layout from CPD . It uses the sega player 2 button layout.  I was slightly concerned the rightmost player didn't have enough room for his hand on the buttons, but after running it through my cardboard template I believe it is fine.  I have also heard critiques of the leftmost and rightmost players being slanted, but again after checking it on cardboard the viewing angles appear to be reasonable.

I have dropped the trackball since none of those games seem to appeal to me.  Do you think I would be missing out without one?  Maybe there are alternate uses I have not thought of.  I have moved the spinner to the center of the panel, do you think this is a good place for it?

I have dropped the dedicated 4-way since I plan to use u360s.  If you think this is unwise, let me know, but keep in mind I am a casual player of 4-way games.  I have also removed the dedicated Asteroids layout, as it should be possible to use the existing buttons.

Finally I moved the player start/coin buttons away from the edges, and added 3 admin buttons (pause, quit, menu?).  I was unsure about the number of admin buttons, but believe I at least want these three.  I have not changed the joystick positions from the original mameroom design.  If this was an issue for anyone, please let me know.  I look forward to some SMASH TV and some tapper using multiple joysticks. 

If you can answer one or more of these question, or have any other comments, please post!

-Brian

[ragnar]

8 buttons for player 3 and 4?  What games require this that you want to play?

[DaveMMR]

8 buttons for player 3 and 4?  What games require this that you want to play?

+1

Unless you're planning N64, Dreamcast or other 4-player console emulation, you can cut the number of buttons on players 3/4 to 4 (or even 3, if you don't care about Dungeons & Dragons).

[51mmz0rz]

Ah, thanks for the replies guys.  This one I though about for awhile...Guilty Gear Isuka actually uses 6 buttons, but that of course wouldn't justify 8 for the P3 and P4.  Honestly after thinking about it for awhile though, I couldn't think of a reason not to include the extra buttons, since I don't think the CP is too crowded.  I basically think it will give players a choice of which buttons to use, and might come in handy at a later date.  Who knows, maybe I'll want to play from the far left instead of the center    Is there any particular reason to remove them?

Keep the critiques coming!

[ragnar]

I am also from the school of more buttons.  I have a 2 player cab with 9 buttons.  I did this for N64 support and have no regrets.  One issue did come up though that you might run into.  With 8 buttons, your hand might jump left or right one row and you might not realize it immediately.  Others think I am a bit daffy for saying this but I found it to be an issue.  It was easily resolved with a drill bit.  I "dented" a "home button" so I can reposition my hand by feel (without looking).

Just saying.  I agree with this idea for one major reason.  If you are spending the time and money on this project, what is an extra $2 per button.  It's easier to not use the extra button(s) than regret not having them later.

[51mmz0rz]

Thanks, that is a good suggestion, it may be worth texturing a button for a point of reference.  Anyway I'm pretty satisfied, thanks everyone for the feedback.

[bkenobi]

The cost of adding extra buttons really isn't the buttons (~$2 each).  The extra cost is when you have to buy an extra controller to take the inputs from those buttons ($20-$40 plus shipping).  If you don't care about spending the extra money, then it's not a big deal.  I have a 2p CP with 7 buttons each.  I was able to get everything set up with a single GGG 34 input controller which obviously won't happen with pretty much any 4p setup.  If you want each player to have the same controls for the looks of it, then you will simply have some buttons that won't get used that much.  That's really the only down side (other than cost of course).

[51mmz0rz]

Yes, you are right, but in this case I would be using the input mode on the U360s (which can take up to 8 button inputs each) to supplement an encoder.  I actually wished I could find a way to not buy an extra encoder at all, but it wasn't in the cards.

[severdhed]

looks pretty good.  i only do mame on my 4player cabinet, so i went with 6 buttons for p1 and p2, and 4 buttons for p3 and p4 and it works out great.  i'm torn on having the p3 and p4 joysticks at an angle, i've used them both ways, and they both seem to work ok for me.  they are angled on our panel at work, they are not on my panel at home. 

as for the 4way stick, if you are only a casual 4way gamer, then the u360 will probably be sufficient.  they perform very well in 4way mode, they just dont' have the same feel as a restricted 4way.  i have two u360s in my 4 player panel, and i am using JLWs for players 3 and 4, however i am considering replacing my u360s with two more JLWs...  they fell really good and i miss the clicking with the u360s.  if i had a small panel and not alot of room, then the u360s are the perfect choice, however i have a dedicated vertical classics cabinet with a dedicated 4 way, so they are really not being fully utilized. 

[51mmz0rz]

Interesting advice with the U360s.  I may try something like your setup with P1 & P2 U360s and P3 & P4 with JLFs or JLWs.  Being able to shift the U360 45 degrees so it is on a parallel axis with the neighboring stick would be useful for games like SMASH TV, so I probably couldn't see myself using all Sanwas.  I will have to see if I miss the microswitch feel in the U360s, then decide.

[sstralkowski]

This CP looks a lot like mine except I only have 4 buttons for players 3 & 4.  I also have no spinner, but instead a pause button right under my 3 admin buttons.  I use my admin buttons for save, load, and escape.  The front corners are cut at an angle on my CP so that you know the angle of the 3 & 4 joysticks. 

[severdhed]

is this going to be your only cabinet?  if so, you may want to reconsider the trackball.  i didn't want one when i first set mine up, because i didn't know of any good games that used it.  i'm not much of a golden tee golf fan.  however shortly after setting up the one at work, i was introduced to centipede and millipede, and i absolutely needed to have one after that.  world class bowling is also alot of fun.

[51mmz0rz]

Yes, it would be my only cabinet, I see what you mean about versatility.  I had some reservations dropping the trackball due to Marble Madness, but like you, didn't seem to be a fan of any trackball games.  I am hoping the analog mode of the U360s might work in a pinch, but you do have me considering a trackball in case I start to like a trackball game in the future.

I would likely go with something like the attached layout, the buttons might be a little awkward to reach, but not terrible.  What do you think about the trackball addition?

[severdhed]

that should work.  even if you don't put one in right now, at least leave room for it so you could add it later.(you'd still have to disassemble your panel, but at least you woudln't have to build a new one.)

one thing people might say is that depending on the cabinet design, having the trackball too far back can result in jamming your fingers into the monitor.  i've personally never done it.  I had a trackball installed in a panel that the center of the trackball hole was only 6" from the back edge of the panel, i never once hit the screen with my hands, but my idiot friend came over one day and did it 3 times in a row trying to play golden tee golf.  personally, i think centipede and millipede are worth having a trackball for.  the kids really love to play world class bowling, which is alot of fun.  the u360s analog mode doesn't work very well for trackball games.  personally i would rather have a trackball than a spinner...i am not really a hard core fan of any spinner games, and the trackball can do in a pinch for casual use. 

i have my trackball in my vertical classic cab, i did not install one in my 4 player showcase cabinet...however i did leave enough space in case i wanted to add one later.  and since i have one sitting here collecting dust, i will probably be installing it before too long.

[51mmz0rz]

Thanks severdhed, I think you have convinced me to add a trackball.  In my desire to keep the panel uncluttered maybe I went overboard.  The new panel design looks fine and is certainly more versatile.  I can live without a dedicated 4-way, but it is hard to replicate a trackball.  Plus it wouldn't negatively impact any existing controls on the CP, as it is pretty much out of the way.

It looks like I will go with the attached layout, which is the same except I moved the spinner down just a bit to align with the bottom-right P1 button, giving the trackball a bit more room.  At first I placed the trackball halfway between the spinner and the back edge of the CP, but ended up moving it about 0.5" closer to the player for a more comfortable reach.  This would be 7.75" from the back of the CP and 6.75" from the spinner.  Since trackball games aren't top priority anyway, I'm okay with this.

Since Mameroom using the Happ cutout, I would likely be using a Happ USB trackball, mounting the plexi over the mounting plate.  At first I was afraid of the cost, but quickly realized the pricing on the Happ website is out of line with what everyone else charges.

So thanks again severd and everyone else that commented, I think I'll be happier with this new layout.  Still, let me know what you think!

[DaveMMR]

I couldn't think of a reason not to include the extra buttons, since I don't think the CP is too crowded.  I basically think it will give players a choice of which buttons to use, and might come in handy at a later date.  Who knows, maybe I'll want to play from the far left instead of the center    Is there any particular reason to remove them?

Not a good reason to add unnecessary buttons IMO.  If you have a use for them, that's fine, but start giving guests too many choices and they're just going to get confused.  Also, the extra inch of choice really won't make a terrible difference.  I personally think less in more with buttons on a panel. 

Yes, you are right, but in this case I would be using the input mode on the U360s (which can take up to 8 button inputs each) to supplement an encoder.  I actually wished I could find a way to not buy an extra encoder at all, but it wasn't in the cards.

And there's another reason to take out some buttons.     If you lower the button count, you'll eliminate the expense of an additional encoder.

[51mmz0rz]

Maybe you are right about the buttons, my reasoning is honestly pretty poor . My gut feeling is to leave them in, and I think people won't be confused enough to be frustrated. I guess I won't be sure until people start playing on it.

The encoder thing is tricky.  I could reduce the buttons player to 4  6  6  4, have extra 8 for coin and player buttons, and 3 admins, giving me 31 total; just enough if I had 4 U360s.  But then again I probably want at least 7 for something like the neogeo layout, or 6 6 6 6 for Isuka, and I might not even get 4 U360s; I was considering getting only 2 and using JLWs or JLFs as well.  So I think no matter my configuration I would need a dedicated encoder.

[ragnar]

Thanks, that is a good suggestion, it may be worth texturing a button for a point of reference.  Anyway I'm pretty satisfied, thanks everyone for the feedback.

I would do this after you think there is a problem.  I did it because I felt there was a problem with hand shifting with the 9 button layout I have.  You might not have any problem like this though.

[severdhed]

i am using two u360s with the player 1 and 2 buttons wired to them, and a keywiz from ggg for the rest of the controls.  i chose the keywiz because it has 40 inputs, plus i think 32 shifted inputs.  i figured even if i remove my u360s, the keywiz will be enough to handle everything.

4 joysticks = 16
6 buttons each for players 1 and 2 = 12
4 buttons each for players 3 and 4 = 8
4 start buttons = 4

that adds up to 40 exactly.  i can use the shazaam adapters to wire up the 4 coin buttons and the exit button as shifted inputs, and all is good...
it is cheaper than the ipac2, which has 32 inputs (a few dollars more if you count in the cost of the 5 shazaam adapters i needed), but a good bit cheaper than the ipac4.

nothing against the ipac products, they are awesome.  we have an ipac4 in our panel at work and it is great.  but, i am very pleased with the performance of my keywiz

[javeryh]

Not a good reason to add unnecessary buttons IMO.  If you have a use for them, that's fine, but start giving guests too many choices and they're just going to get confused.  Also, the extra inch of choice really won't make a terrible difference.  I personally think less in more with buttons on a panel. 

More buttons = confusion + eyesore.  People are stupid and you will be explaining everything eleventy billion times.  Also, when I'm working on one of these things I try to keep in mind the entire cabinet design.  I want it to be functional but more importantly I want it to look good in my house.  Tons of buttons on a gigantic CP just doesn't do it for me aesthetically-speaking. 

 

[severdhed]

Not a good reason to add unnecessary buttons IMO.  If you have a use for them, that's fine, but start giving guests too many choices and they're just going to get confused.  Also, the extra inch of choice really won't make a terrible difference.  I personally think less in more with buttons on a panel. 

More buttons = confusion + eyesore.  People are stupid and you will be explaining everything eleventy billion times.  Also, when I'm working on one of these things I try to keep in mind the entire cabinet design.  I want it to be functional but more importantly I want it to look good in my house.  Tons of buttons on a gigantic CP just doesn't do it for me aesthetically-speaking. 

 

i agree.  i try very hard to keep the panel as clutter free as possible.  the more buttons, the more confusing it is for people.  like others have said, there is no need for more than 4 buttons for players 3 and 4, unless you are doing console emulation.  and as far as I am concerned, console games should be played with a gamepad, not an arcade setup. (there may be a few exceptions).  there are already way too many games in mame for anyone to come close to playing them all, consoles games just make it worse.  if i'm going to play a console game, it is either on the original console, or a modded xbox, on the big screen, sitting on the couch. 

same goes for admin buttons...less is more.  i dont like coin buttons on the panel, i either use the coin slots, rig the coin reject buttons, or put the coin buttons on the edge of the control panel box to get them out of the way.  on my vertical classics cabinet, i have an exit button and a pause button, both of which are clearly labled.  on my 4 player cabinet, i only have 1 admin button that serves as pause and exit (quick press is pause, 2 second press is exit).  even at that, the panel seems cluttered to me....i am planning on adding a trackball yet, but that will only add to the clutter.

my point is, if you dont have a real need for all those buttons, why have them? 

[Harakiri]

I agree with all the opinions above stated and i add a few rhetorical questions myself.

Do you have that many friends willing to play retro games frequently?

Do you party often?

Do you have lots of free time on your hands?

If you failed to answer one of the three, don't build that panel.

[Jefferson]

I have a 4P cab (orig a TMNT) with 4 coin slots, so I glued in some switches behind the coin reject buttons and wired them as p1-4 coin inputs... its great, its intuitive, takes 4 buttons off the panel, and if you don't tell people, it would never occur to them $$$

[severdhed]

I agree with all the opinions above stated and i add a few rhetorical questions myself.

Do you have that many friends willing to play retro games frequently?

Do you party often?

Do you have lots of free time on your hands?

If you failed to answer one of the three, don't build that panel.

i don't know if i agree with that.  i had only a 2 player cabinet for a while, and i thought i had no need for a 4 player cabinet. i helped my friend do a 4player panel, but 90% of the time it is used to play millipede and gyrus. and while i don't too often play anything other than the vertical classic games, my kids love the beat em ups.  i used to sit with my oldest son (3yo) and we would play tmnt and sunset riders, but now my youngest son(he will be 2 in december) wants to sit there too.  so when i got the chance to build a 4 player cabinet, i took it.  sure it doesn't get used very much, but when i can sit there with my 2 sons and play a few games (the little one just pounds on it,,the other one can actually play) it is awesome. And since we are expecting our third child in March, it will be really awesome when i can play 4 player TMNT with all 3 of my kids.  I'm sure it will also be a big hit the next time we have a party and our friends bring their kids over.    My point is, even if you dont have alot of parties or alot of people over all the time, it doesn't mean it isn't worth building a 4 player panel....especially if you have kids.  i'd still try to eliminate any extra buttons you don't need, but if you want a 4 player panel, go for it.