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Author Topic: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup  (Read 8520 times)

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Umgar

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Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« on: August 30, 2010, 01:21:41 pm »
Howdy all,

I've been lurking on this board for a while reading up about cabinet construction while I slowly acquired the parts to put my own MAME cabinet together. I finally have everything ready to do the final assembly and had some general questions - mostly about the monitor. Just want to make sure I'm not missing any critical steps in my build process before I push the "on" switch :)

So here's what I've got:

 - MKII Arcade cabinet with a working monitor model WG 25k7197 (tested by powering on the original board / MKII boots up and looks great)
 - J-PAC interface
 - 3 Ghz / 2GB RAM PC with an ArcadeVGA graphics card (the new PCI-E one w/ 512mb video RAM)
 - X-Arcade controls

For the actual setting up of of MAME and the PC I'm well experienced so no issues there. This will be the first time I actually hook a PC up to an arcade monitor though.

My question is this: with a J-PAC and ArcadVGA card is it really just a matter of plug it in and turn it on or is there more I need to do to get the best picture possible? I know the J-PAC will not allow an out-of-range signal so there shouldn't be an issue with blowing the monitor out, but I notice that there is still a lot of stuff hooked up to the JAMMA interface which is probably not necessary anymore. For instance, there is a blue box at the bottom of the cabinet which seems to have a lot of stuff wired into it - no idea what this is. It seems to be separate form the power supply itself, I can post a pic if that helps. Should I basically aim to disconnect and remove absolutely everything except for AC power that feeds the display... or with a J-PAC & ArcadeVGA does it not matter?

Thanks!  ;D

Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 02:12:14 pm »
Here's a picture of the mystery component. What is this thing?  ??? Should I remove it or does it matter?


Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 02:19:34 pm »
Another thing that caught my eye... there is a single bare wire hanging out of the cable that goes to the monitor (see picture). As I said previously, the monitor displays a normal picture when tested with the original MKII board, just curious as to why this wire would be hanging free and if this is something I should change before I hook it up to the PC.


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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 05:14:22 pm »
Here's a picture of the mystery component. What is this thing?  ??? Should I remove it or does it matter?



That is a power supply and should remove it -- although I think the new JPACs have protection against mistakenly plugging the harness in backward, if you aren't driving something from the power supply, it may fail. When you do so, trace the AC wiring back (looks like it is the purple pair) to the source and disconnect it rather than leaving the wires hanging loose.
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 05:18:17 pm »
Another thing that caught my eye... there is a single bare wire hanging out of the cable that goes to the monitor (see picture). As I said previously, the monitor displays a normal picture when tested with the original MKII board, just curious as to why this wire would be hanging free and if this is something I should change before I hook it up to the PC.



That's an ground wire and was probably attached to all of the internal metal parts originally. Does it connect to the monitor chassis (the circuit board) or the metal frame ?
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Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2010, 06:41:16 pm »
The wire isn't connected to anything at the moment, it's literally just hanging free in the cabinet. That's the way it was when I received it. Should I attach it to a ground cable that hooks up to one of the cabinet screws?

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2010, 06:54:11 pm »
My only concern is that it might be attached to something important (usually not the case, but I have seen some strange things) -- does one end trace back to the power supply ?

Never mind -- you are talking about the gray wire inside the sheath going to the monitor, right ? No problem with that -- the only thing I might do is tidy it a bit by wrapping it around the sheath.

I had thought that you were talking about the green/yellow wire. My mistake.
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 09:38:26 pm »
I'm confused, is that a sleeved or un-sleeved wire? If unsleeved, then it's a ground wire, if it's sleeved, it could be the secondary sync line (possibly unused on your board). I'm just speculating here.

Also, like cheffojeffo said, your mystery box is just a power supply, yank it out.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 09:42:25 pm »
This is just one of the many fun things you will encounter interfacing an arcade monitor to your PC. Whilst the Ultimarc kit is good at what it does, you will need to a bit of setting up and probably have to play around with resolutions, graphic effects (filters) and other software aspects before it runs as you want it, as it's likely your current PC setup has been optimised for a PC monitor so far.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 12:41:49 am »
Thanks for the help everyone. I have some more pics for clarification, just want to make sure I'm not yanking out anything I shouldn't o.O

So here is the power going into the monitor. The green wire goes nowhere  ??? so I guess that' just a ground wire... when I trace it back it screws into a chassis screw next to the main PSU.


Following the three wires down, the purple wires eventually split:


With two going to what I guess is the "main" PSU at the bottom center of the cabinet:


And two going to the blue PSU:


Cheffo, you are saying I should disconnect the purple wires that go from the blue PSU to the split, and then remove the blue PSU altogether. Correct?

Turnarcades, the loose wire is coming out of the main data cable (the gray cable that looks like a CAT-5 cable) that goes to the monitor. The sheath of the cable ends and 6 wires come out:
white, black, red, brown, green - all wired into a plug which is plugged into the monitor. The 6th wire is bare / no color and just hangs free. Does that make sense?

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 06:19:50 am »
Refer to this guide for what all your AC components and connectivity should be:

http://arcadecontrols.com/BBBB/acwiring.html

The blue power supply you are removing is referred to as the switching power supply.  The big ugly thing at the bottom of your cabinet is the Isolation transformer.

Cheffo was having you trace the purple wires back and disconnect them because they would normally be going to a distribution block (rather than unscrew them from the power supply and leave them hanging loose).  In your case, it looks like it might be safe to just unhook the molex connecter (with 2 purples and 1 green) in between the isloation transformer and the power supply.  You could always put some black tape over the bare end of the molex if you wanted.

Also remember that these lines you are working with are the main 120v AC lines, so make sure you don't do anything to them with the cabniet plugged into the wall.  Most cabs have the HOT wire cut through a switch when it comes into the cabinet, but I've seen to many of them wired backwards, so never trust the AC wiring until you reconorder it yourself.

Bottom line, read that AC guide several times until it makes perfect sense to you.  And ask more questions as needed.

Good luck.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 08:42:05 am »
Not a clue sorry.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 10:50:18 am »
If it's a bare wire, then it's just to aid in preventing interference to your signal wires. It should be ground, but in your particular scenario, you can leave it free (or even better, cut it back and wrap the end of the larger insulation with electrician's tape.

What you're thinking the "main" power supply is, is actually your "Isolation Transformer". It took a while for me to understand what it actually does, but it's gonna convert your 120v electricity to something more monitor friendly. It'll also help prevent the monitor from shooting any bad electricity backwards into your cab, computer, wall, house, etc.

LEAVE IT IN! Also double check that the wires on it are going to the correct lugs (wall goes to 120v on one side, and your monitor should already be wired to the required lugs on the opposing side.

The blue box is a power supply for the arcade board. It's gonna take 120v in, and correct it to voltages your board requires. Much like a computer power supply, this power supply will provide +12v, +5v, -5v, and some grounds. It may also provide a number of other voltages, all indicated on the supply itself.

You'll be using a PC power supply so YANK THIS PUPPY OUT!

The chassis screw next to your "main power supply" (that we now know is called an Isolation Transformer (Because it isolates your monitor, while transforming voltages)) is actually a grounding screw. They decided to tie all the grounds (board, monitor, coin door, and probably a few other devices) so that there wasn't a floating ground, but one big centralized ground. This should also be tied in with your third prong on the AC plug that goes to your wall, to ensure your maximum safety.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:54:04 am by DillonFoulds »

Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2010, 02:06:18 am »
OK, I got the power supply out and disconnected basically everything but the power going to the display and the JAMMA wiring harness. I plugged everything in and flipped the switch, unfortunately no-go :( The computer boots up and I can sort of see it but screen is constantly "rolling" top to bottom. [see video linked below for example] Here are the exact steps I took and the setup I have now:

Setup:
Cabinet:
MKII cabinet with a Wells Gardner WG 25k7197 & JAMMA wiring harness
JPAC adapter like the one here http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac.html , plugged into the JAMMA interface
VGA cable that came with the JPAC goes to the PC

PC:
run-of-the-mill Foxconn motherboard
Intel 3Ghz proc
2GB RAM
Ultimarc ArcadeVGA Graphics Card (PCIE / 512mb RAM)   [using VGA-OUT on the graphics card --> JPAC]

When I was ready to switch from the integrated graphics on the motherboard and an LCD monitor over to the ArcadeVGA card and arcade display, here are the steps I took:

1) In Windows, uninstall VGA drivers
2) Power off PC
3) Install ArcadeVGA card and disconnect LCD monitor from integrated VGA port
4) Connect VGA cable coming from JPAC to ArcadeVGA card VGA-out
5) Power up arcade display
6) Turn on PC

The video linked below is the result. The screen is garbled during the boot process and on load of the OS :( I'm pretty sure the problem is not the monitor itself as I said I tested it already using the original MKII board (booted up and played fine). I also know it's not a bad ArcadeVGA card since this is my 2nd one (first attempt I had the same problem - but this was using a different PC with an ArcadeVGA AGP version... exact same problem).

Video: http://gallery.me.com/awstroud#100016/Mame%20arcade%20attempt%201&bgcolor=black

Am I doing something wrong or is this indicative of a bad part? Bad JPAC or VGA cable maybe?  ???  :banghead:
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 11:53:18 am by Umgar »

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2010, 06:05:49 am »
Have you tried bypassing the JPac for the VGA? It's not required since the ArcadeVGA is already producing 15kHz.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 06:25:02 am »
Have you tried bypassing the JPac for the VGA? It's not required since the ArcadeVGA is already producing 15kHz.

The JPac isn't a scan converter and should not be bypassed.  :dizzy:
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2010, 08:37:58 am »
Have you tried bypassing the JPac for the VGA? It's not required since the ArcadeVGA is already producing 15kHz.

The JPac isn't a scan converter and should not be bypassed.  :dizzy:

Then I must be thoroughly confused as to what the JPAC actually does for the video signal.  :(

Disregard me, I suppose.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2010, 08:39:53 am »
rolling you say? have you tried adjusting the Vsync and other adjstable knobs? it took a bit of tweaking for me to get soft15 running on my 25k7197 just right.


cotnmm68030 the JPAC will prevent bad signals from reaching the monitor, protecting it from damage.
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2010, 11:23:30 am »
Adjustable knobs? Where would these be?  :dizzy: 

Sorry, tohl noob here...

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2010, 11:55:21 am »
On the back of the monitor pcb.

You can see them in the picture.


« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 11:57:29 am by M.Lanza »
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 05:08:34 pm »
Playing with knobs (mostly vertical hold) I have been able to get things a lot better. However, I'm still having a problem with vertical "roll." I can sometimes get it to stop but the dial is extremely sensitive. There is a miniscule "sweet spot" on the dial where the picture stays in place, anything above or below and the picture will start slowly scrolling up or down. Also, certain types of animation will make the picture jump up an inch or so or start to slowly roll. For instance, in the Nokia monitor test program if I cycle through some of the tests (the ones that have "flicker/strobe" effect), it will start to slowly scroll. Is this something that I can fix with more dial fiddling or is this indicative of a hardware issue? Maybe there is a software fix? There weren't any issues with vertical alignment when I was testing with the MKII board, only now that I'm using a PC.  ???

EDIT: More info that might be helpful:

 - No LED's are lit on the JPAC (occasionally I see self-test light come on but nothing else, I thought the "sync OK" LED should be lit?)
 - Strangely, changing jumpers on the JPAC seems to have no discernible impact on the picture whatsoever... have it set back to default two jumpers at 31 and 15 currently
 - Sometimes cycling the monitor (power down for 5 - 10 seconds, power back up) seems to help, sometimes not. Seems random

My issue seems very similar to this guy's problem: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=101088.0  He has a completely different display but also is using an ArcadeVGA + JPAC.

This, coupled with the fact that there were no issues with vertical alignment or scrolling on the monitor before I removed the MKII board and went to PC, has me thinking this has something to do with the ArcadeVGA and/or JPAC... any ideas?  :banghead:

ANOTHER EDIT:  Apparently the other guy who had this same issue it turned out to be a defective VGA Breakout cable. Could that be the case here? And a related question - anyone know if you can get this type of cable at a computer parts store like a Fry's Electronics or is this something I'll have to order online? I'm dumb, I am not using a VGA breakout but a regular VGA cable (the one that came with the JPAC). Could it still be related? I noticed that the VGA cable that came with the JPAC had one less pin than a standard VGA cable like I use with computer monitors, but I'm assuming that's normal?  ???
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 09:17:24 pm by Umgar »

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 11:38:31 pm »
Unless anyone has a good reason why I shouldn't, I think I am going to buy a new VGA male-to-female cable and try that out tomorrow. It is such a cheap replacement I might as well rule that out before going down the path of more drastic changes like new caps for the monitor, new JPAC, etc.

*fingers crossed*

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2010, 05:31:43 pm »
There's a pin missing on the second row for a reason. It's just a keying pin, nothing in particular. No signals get sent through that pin.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2010, 06:18:47 pm »
Have you tried bypassing the JPac for the VGA? It's not required since the ArcadeVGA is already producing 15kHz.

The JPac isn't a scan converter and should not be bypassed.  :dizzy:

Then I must be thoroughly confused as to what the JPAC actually does for the video signal.  :(

Disregard me, I suppose.

Well, I was harsh (and potentially misleading) in my answer ... 'should not' was the wrong word choice. People often think that the ArcadeVGA and JPAC combination are redundant, but they do two totally different things (e.g. the JPAC won't change the scan rate -- if it gets 15kHz, then it puts out 15kHz). The JPAC will keep you from frying your monitor by blocking unsupported frequencies ... unless, of course you randomly mess with the jumpers.

I should have asked if he had sync lights. I also should have asked about resolution -- I have some monitors that just don't like some resolutions.
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2010, 11:49:25 pm »
You are going through the trouble of using an arcade monitor, but you want to use the X-Arcade controls instead of designing your own control panel? 
You have it a bit backwards.  Unless you are REALLY into some form of authenticity, save yourself the trouble and use a PC monitor instead.  You can get a 21 or 22 inch flat screen CRT for nothing, and they work really well.  If you need something bigger just find a TV.  Really, you won't notice the difference, but they are much nicer than an Arcade monitor.  And get rid of the X-Arcade controls.....


;)

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2010, 06:57:51 am »
You are going through the trouble of using an arcade monitor, but you want to use the X-Arcade controls instead of designing your own control panel? 
You have it a bit backwards.  Unless you are REALLY into some form of authenticity, save yourself the trouble and use a PC monitor instead.  You can get a 21 or 22 inch flat screen CRT for nothing, and they work really well.  If you need something bigger just find a TV.  Really, you won't notice the difference, but they are much nicer than an Arcade monitor.  And get rid of the X-Arcade controls.....

Since the cab is JAMMA, I was presuming that he had controls from X-Arcade (e.g. parts), not a preassembled panel (which obviously won't interface with JAMMA).

As for arcade monitor vs PC or TV ... it really does make a difference.
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2010, 04:33:52 pm »
I tried a new higher quality SVGA cable last night. This made a huge difference on picture quality, but unfortunately still experiencing the constant scroll of the screen. I can stop the roll by playing with the v-hold knob but it's very tough to get it in the right spot (sometimes I get it stopped but not in the right spot, the screen is chopped through the middle). I think tonight I am going to shoot a short video to show exactly how I have everything set up and what I'm experiencing.

Quite frustrated so far as with both the JPAC AND an ArcadeVGA card from Ultimarc I expected this would essentially be "plug and play" plus a little tweaking to get the image "just right." Instead it's completely unusable out of the box, and a lot with a lot of tweaking I can get it "almost playable." Not what I was expecting:-/

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2010, 05:15:22 pm »
Make sure that the "sync" line (the white wire) coming from the jamma harness
is connected to either a "composite sync" pin, or both the "positive sync" and "negative sync" pins.

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2010, 09:37:22 pm »
Yeah that sounds exactly like the problem I had with my monitor when I first got started. Turns out I failed to actually connect the v sync pin. And then when I did, I hooked it to the wrong pin. Felt a special kind of stupid when I realized my mistake.  So double check continuity on those sync pins!

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2010, 11:04:53 pm »
Quote
Make sure that the "sync" line (the white wire) coming from the jamma harness
is connected to either a "composite sync" pin, or both the "positive sync" and "negative sync" pins.
I see one white wire coming off the monitor plug (the one that plugs into the monitor board). If I follow it all the way back to the JAMMA interface and compare to the pinout diagram here http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac2.html it is wired into "P" (composite sync)

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You are going through the trouble of using an arcade monitor, but you want to use the X-Arcade controls instead of designing your own control panel?
You have it a bit backwards.  Unless you are REALLY into some form of authenticity, save yourself the trouble and use a PC monitor instead.  You can get a 21 or 22 inch flat screen CRT for nothing, and they work really well.  If you need something bigger just find a TV.  Really, you won't notice the difference, but they are much nicer than an Arcade monitor.  And get rid of the X-Arcade controls.....
Some background - I got this cabinet off of Craig's List and the guy had already purchased the X-arcade controls (a pre-assembled two-player setup like the one here:http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-joysticks-and-game-controllers/product/x-arcade-dual-joystick/ , not parts) because the original controls had been vandalized and he was planning on converting the cabinet to MAME but lost interest. So the x-arcade set sits where the original controls used to be. Since I'm doing a MAME cabinet I don't see what I would gain from custom controls over x-arcade... if I was building a new cab from scratch I would definitely go that route but I specifically chose this cabinet because it was an MKII cab which I have some nostalgia for. I know I don't get a trackball with this set but... meh.

Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2010, 11:15:56 pm »
OK, here's the video I promised. Hopefully this helps. Apologies for the length (7:30). Longer than I intended but I wanted to make sure I did a thorough explanation. I owe beers to whoever can show me what I'm doing wrong  8)


M.Lanza

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2010, 09:48:56 am »
I'm not sure if you've figured it out since you made your video,
But the reason why it's probably not working is because you don't
have a power source connected to it.

The jpac draws power from the computers PS/2 port.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 09:50:31 am by M.Lanza »
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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2010, 11:31:30 am »
I'm not sure if you've figured it out since you made your video,
But the reason why it's probably not working is because you don't
have a power source connected to it.

The jpac draws power from the computers PS/2 port.

Nice catch.
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Umgar

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2010, 12:32:04 pm »
Officially feel retarded now.  :embarassed:

Am at work but will plug that in when I get home. If that turns out to be the only issue... well... at least it was easy  :laugh2:

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Re: Some general quesitons about first MAME cabinet setup
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2010, 03:46:03 pm »
Whew, been a while. The un-powered JPAC was definitely the problem. I have things looking great now :)

Lanza, PM me a shipping address and your favorite beer. I am a man of my word  :cheers:

Thanks all for the help! I am having some issue getting certain games to run in MAME but 95% sure this is a software issue, I'm going to start a separate thread on that and will come back and link once up.
EDIT: and here it is - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105980.0

-Umgar
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 03:56:57 pm by Umgar »