Decent PC for MAME?

[runninblue]

Hi all,

I'm starting my very first cab project from scratch and I have a question about PC specs (if this is in the wrong forum I do apologise). I realise that PC specs for mame can be very subjective but a little help will be much appreciated.

Obviously I don't want to spend too much on the PC since a beast is not needed for MAME generally. A local PC shop is selling a pre-built system for $399 (AUD). It consists of:

AMD Dual Core 2.9GHz 7MB Cache CPU
Gigabyte 740 AM3 Mainboard
2GB DDR3 1333 Memory
WD/Samsung 500GB SATA Hard Drive
Samsung/LG DVDRW 22x Dual Layer
Mini ATX Case and 430watt PSU

My question is, is this PC good for running MAME? Is it overkill? Is it not enough in some area?

Thanks everyone.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that I would like to play as many 3D based games as possible aswell as older games.

[shfifty]

With those specs i'd say its overkill for most 2D games, but should be suitable if you want to run the 3D stuff. I'm still only using a P4 1.8 with 384mb ram and that runs pretty much everything full speed except for 3D and NBA hangtime.

But for $399 thats a pretty good deal.

 

[runninblue]

Thanks shfifty.

I suppose if I wanted to add a graphics card the cheapest current one on the market will suffice for MAME right?

[Blanka]

Is there no graphics card included? Or does it have on board graphics. The later is OK for MAME too. The only thing that is used is upscaling for high-res LCD's, and onboard graphics is perfect capable of that.
399 AUSD? Isn't that already the price for a non OEM Windows license there?

[shfifty]

yeah i would just stick with the onboard graphics. It should have it, even my crappy asrock MB has it.

399 AUSD? Isn't that already the price for a non OEM Windows license there?

isnt windows free?

[runninblue]

Is there no graphics card included?

It didn't state if it has a graphics card or on board graphics and since it's a budget pc i assumed it didn't.

[Eddie_Brock]

You only need a graphics card if you need a specific output that the on-board does not (ie S-Video).
MAME does all of its graphical processing through your CPU and RAM, so having a top of the line video card will not help you greatly.

[JohnEDollar]

yeah i would just stick with the onboard graphics. It should have it, even my crappy asrock MB has it.

399 AUSD? Isn't that already the price for a non OEM Windows license there?

isnt windows free?

Micro$oft Windows has never been free....

[JODY]

Your proposed setup is way more than enough for most games.  If you like the newer ones some tweaking can make them fully playable too.

Different AMD dual core's running at 2.9 GHz will yield different results so I'm not sure which one they include.  I built a PC a few months ago.  It includes what was a cheap AMD thriple core at the time.  I think it has since been replaced with another model.  It is an AMD Athlon II X3 435 Rana 95W at 2.9 GHz.  I used 4 GB of DDR3 1600 Ram and a Gigabyte GA-MA785GMT-UD2H AM3 and 785G HDMI motherboard.  Note this super high speed RAM is not fully supported by many motherboards but is on this one.  The motherboard, CPU, and RAM cost me $275 in the US.  It is outputing onboard graphics via HDMI to an HD TV at full HD resolution for Windows but Mameuifx32 is set to auto resolution and decreases the resolution for games.  E.g. 1280 x 720 for Cruis'n USA.  Due to the onboard graphics, it uses 500MB of RAM for the graphics leaving 3.5 GB for Windows 7.  Windows 7's Windows Experience Index maxes out at a low memory figure when less than 4 GB is available to windows so these next figures are not fully accurate.

The Windows 7 experience figures are:
Processor 6.7
Memory 5.9 (but if I added just a little more RAM I've read it would max out the memory test score as this is very high speed RAM)
Graphics 4.4
Gaming Graphics 5.4

MAME makes heavy use of RAM so RAM is very important too...besides the CPU.
I'm able to run Cruisin' USA at 89 - 103% according to Mameuifx32.  During play is it mostly in the 96 - 100% range.  I'm running the CPU at normal speed.  No overclocking.

Note the above is for Windows 7 64 bit.

[oyama82]

my friend dont buy the amd they are not good for mame
buy an intel dual core 3.0 ghz with 2 gb ram(more is not needed)and a cheap video card
run windows xp64 or 7-64  and you will be fine

[runninblue]

Thanks everyone, that's good advice. Maybe a silly question but do shops still sell Windows XP 64bit now that windows 7 is out? Or maybe I have to ahem...download it.

Also one MAME cab maker is advising people to use TinyXP, a modded OS that streamlines Windows. I'm not asking if I should get it as it's illegal. Just wondering if anyone's heard anything negative about TinyXP.

[oyama82]

dont be silly,just download it
tinyxp is cool but is limited to 32bit,you need the 64bit xp version because mame runs much faster on that
or windows 7
avoid vista at all costs

[EvilNuff]

...Also one MAME cab maker is advising people to use TinyXP, a modded OS that streamlines Windows. I'm not asking if I should get it as it's illegal. Just wondering if anyone's heard anything negative about TinyXP.

Tinyxp is just a streamlined version of xp.  If you own a legal copy of xp then you shouldn't have any issues.  You can also use nlite if you prefer and make your own streamlined version, its pretty simple really.

[jimmy2x2x]

dont be silly,just download it
tinyxp is cool but is limited to 32bit,you need the 64bit xp version because mame runs much faster on that
or windows 7
avoid vista at all costs

Mame runs MUCH faster on xp 64bit?

What are we talking about here 5%, 10%?

[EvilNuff]

The primary benefit to a 64 bit windows OS is memory over 4 gig.  If you do not plan to ever go over 4 gig of ram you will see few benefits from a 64 bit version of xp or win7.  (There are some other slight benefits if the software is written specifically for a 64bit OS.)

[runninblue]

Thanks again for the tips. I was gonna go with 4 gig + of ram anyway to future proof my cab a little bit so I think I will go with Windows Xp 64 bit.

I'm now contemplating buying the pc parts and putting it together myself but I'm a bit reluctant as I haven't played around inside a pc since high school (12 years ago).

[jimmy2x2x]

The primary benefit to a 64 bit windows OS is memory over 4 gig.  If you do not plan to ever go over 4 gig of ram you will see few benefits from a 64 bit version of xp or win7.  (There are some other slight benefits if the software is written specifically for a 64bit OS.)

Apparently mame runs upto 30% faster on xp64, I'm going to give it a try!

[oyama82]

there is no need for 4gb even for the future,believe me with 2gb your cabinet will be smooth with xp64 or windows7
64bit version windows with 64bit version mame can go up to 25-30% than 32bit versions

[XNIF]

somewhere in this forum someone benchmarked the complete set. And you can almost play any mame game on a ION system with a 9400m integrated graphics card and an Atom 330.

[oyama82]

no you cant
its good only for oldies
if you try tekken tag and up it will struggle

[runninblue]

So to sum up:

A 64 bit processor (preferably Intel and probably dual core)
Windows XP 64 bit
2 gig of RAM max
Graphics card optional (but on board graphics recommended)

A basic summation but is this the general consensus?

EDIT: remember I want it to run smooth as a baby's balls where possible!

[Rick]

So to sum up:

A 64 bit processor (preferably Intel and probably dual core)
Windows XP 64 bit
2 gig of RAM max
Graphics card optional (but on board graphics recommended)

A basic summation but is this the general consensus?

EDIT: remember I want it to run smooth as a baby's balls where possible!

Then you want a video card.  Onboard video is slower than a video card.

[oyama82]

onboard videocard is enough for mame
if you need for other emulators,then buy an extra pci-express card,but a cheap one

[ragnar]

It might be just me, but isn't processor speed more important than dual core with emulation?  I'd assume that a single 4 GHz CPU will outperform a dual core 3 GHz setup with regards to emulation.

Reasoning being, I don't think many games (until more recent) have been made for multiple processor systems.

Or are the emulators actually written as multithreaded programs?

[oyama82]

new mame versions support dual core
so you need a good dual core!

[Rick]

onboard videocard is enough for mame

Define "enough".  If by that, you mean "to play the classic games", then I would agree with you.  For some, however, you can enjoy a bit of a speed boost with better hardware.

[oyama82]

its enough for ALL mame games (tekken tag,mortal kombat 4,san fransisco rush,etc)
mame doesnt care for video card like it cares for raw cpu power
and dual core motherboards have good enough onboard vga anyways

[Ginsu Victim]

its enough for ALL mame games (tekken tag,mortal kombat 4,san fransisco rush,etc)
mame doesnt care for video card like it cares for raw cpu power
and dual core motherboards have good enough onboard vga anyways

I've seen a difference many times using better cards versus crappy cards/onboard video.

[oyama82]

we are talking about cards like intel 3100,hd4500,nvidia 8200, and other current onboard cards
these cards have no problem running mame fullspeed

now if you mean Sis,VIA and other older chips,ok,these are not enough for recent mame versions

[Hoopz]

Avoid XP64 if possible. You'll run into driver issues with it.  I'd suggest Win 7 64.

[Rick]

mame doesnt care for video card like it cares for raw cpu power

True, and by using onboard video, you are taking CPU cycles.  Thank you for making my point for me.

 

[oyama82]

I think you people dont know enough about pc hardware and which is the correct for one job or other
believe it if you want or not,a recent onboard card by intel,nvidia or ati is very enough for mame emulator

as for xp64 it will not be a problem for mame only usage,drivers for sound,motherboard and vga are always available
,if you want to add more things then ok,go to windows 7

[Rick]

I think you people dont know enough about pc hardware and which is the correct for one job or other
believe it if you want or not,a recent onboard card by intel,nvidia or ati is very enough for mame emulator

I beg your pardon, sir.

I'll have you know that I have been a computer technician for over 20+ years now, and currently hold the position of "National Technical Consultant" for Canada's largest shipping company.  Before you go throwing out insults, I'd like to ask you to go read a book on current computer hardware.  You might just find your 'opinion' is not correct.

[oyama82]

its not who you are its what you can prove
prove it first that onboard video cards are not enough for mame

we are talking for mame only ok?

[Rick]

Read this:

I think you people dont know enough about pc hardware and which is the correct for one job or other

This is why I responded to your comment as I did.  You are trying to tell people that it doesn't matter if they have a video card or not if they have onboard video, and you even went so far as to say this:

mame doesnt care for video card like it cares for raw cpu power

 

prove it first that onboard video cards are not enough for mame

Oh, I guarantee there might be certain motherboards onboard video cards available today that can run most of the MAME games without issue, but it's not a simple blanket statement that you need to be aware of here.  Sure, if you're running MAME 0.139 without a front end and no other resources, then I'm sure there are a lot of mobos that will support this with little issue.

What if someone is running a game with full LEDWiz support as well?  Does this program not take CPU cycles, when configured for maximum effect?  What if someone is running a cab that's attached to an internal wireless LAN, and has a full firewall and anti-virus?  That will also affect the number of CPU cycles the system has, and I hate to tell you, if you're running onboard video and using your CPU cycles on other programs, your video can be affected.  I know my cab will, when I complete it.

My point is this.  You don't have the prior knowledge to know what people are going to build without asking questions, and you certainly do NOT have the right to call others' experience into account when they're trying to give an opinion that differs to your own.

[jimmy2x2x]

Test it on a low end system and you will see for yourself. (athlon 3200 / 512mb in my case)

Onboard intel graphics vs Nvidia 6200 agp made a world of difference to me.

This was the only change made to the system.
(yes the intel had the latest drivers, yes it was configured in every way possible)

The difference between around 30 frames per second vs 60fps in many scrolling games.

However my laptop also has onboard intel graphics and works well with mame, but this is a higher spec machine C2D 2ghz/2gb.

[oyama82]

here we were talking about mame pc only
if you want to do many other things with your pc,then ok even dual cores are not enough,nor 2gb ram,nor onboard vga card,nor onboard sound card

happy now?

[oyama82]

Test it on a low end system and you will see for yourself. (athlon 3200 / 512mb in my case)

Onboard intel graphics vs Nvidia 6200 agp made a world of difference to me.

This was the only change made to the system.
(yes the intel had the latest drivers, yes it was configured in every way possible)

The difference between around 30 frames per second vs 60fps in many scrolling games.

However my laptop also has onboard intel graphics and works well with mame, but this is a higher spec machine C2D 2ghz/2gb.

I was talking about recent onboard cards like intel gma not the older ones
in your situation you are correct,there is difference because older onboard cards were crappy

[Hoopz]

I was talking about recent onboard cards like intel gma not the older ones
in your situation you are correct,there is difference because older onboard cards were crappy

Ummon, did you create another account?   

You need to quit talking about everything here being black and white.  Different people have different needs, desired outcomes, etc.  Just because something meets your needs, doesn't mean that it'll meet everyone else's needs.

[oyama82]

I didnt ask your advice of how to say my opinion,ok?

[Hoopz]

I didnt ask your advice of how to say my opinion,ok?

That's the beautiful thing about being a part of a community.  We're not afraid to share.   

[oyama82]

share but not personal insult

[Ginsu Victim]

share but not personal insult

Yeah, calling anyone Ummon is an insult for sure!

Other than that, I see no insult.

[oyama82]

what is Ummon,I dont get it

[Hoopz]

share but not personal insult

Yeah, calling anyone Ummon is an insult for sure!

Other than that, I see no insult.

Hey, I could have meant that as an insult to Ummon!  

To the OP:  Sorry about the thread hijack.

[oyama82]

I still dont understand but ok,whatever

[Rick]

share but not personal insult

Pot, meet Kettle.  (You should take your own advice on this one.)

[Haze]

onboard videocard is enough for mame
if you need for other emulators,then buy an extra pci-express card,but a cheap one

onboard video is NOT enough for MAME if you're running Windows 7, a cheap gfx card is.

Intel's Win7 drivers are awful, they frameskip even when you have frameskipping turned off.

This does not happen on Vista.

[Hoopz]

And just so you know Ummon Oy, Haze is/was a Mamedev so I guarantee he knows more about it than you do.

Of course, feel free to tell him why he's wrong too.   

[oyama82]

yes I have heard for Haze before,if he is the same
I used intel onboard on windows 7 on 2 machines before,mame worked perfect

[Ginsu Victim]

yes I have heard for Haze before,if he is the same

I used intel onboard on windows 7 on 2 machines before,mame worked perfect

Again, you're not the only person doing this and most PC setups are not the same.

[oyama82]

ok

[runninblue]

Woah there guys!

Can somebody give me a recommendation then of what video card to buy please. A card that isn't expensive but will do the job nicely.

And does anyone else agree with one poster who says that I should go with Windows 7 over Windows XP 64 bit. First time I've heard that stated.

[oyama82]

at least say a thanks,we were fighting for your sake...

[runninblue]

at least say a thanks,we were fighting for your sake...

No really, thankyou everyone. I appreciate all the help immensly, I just don't want people becoming enemies over little ol' me!

[JODY]

Mame likes a fast CPU but also fast RAM.  A better video card with onboard RAM usually means faster video RAM accesses than going through the system RAM.  In that regard a video card is usually better.  Also, I liked the features of separate video cards from Nvidia and ATI in the past over onboard graphics but with the PC I built recently the onboard graphics is built by ATI and while not as good as their high end cards it is as good as the separate cards I used a few years ago.  The very fast system RAM helps compensate for its use as video RAM.

I haven't had any issues with using AMD chips with MAME.

[Ginsu Victim]

at least say a thanks,we were fighting for your sake...

No really, thankyou everyone. I appreciate all the help immensly, I just don't want people becoming enemies over little ol' me!

You really shouldn't have given in to his demands.

[CheffoJeffo]

Ginsu doesn't negotiate with terrorists! 

[deepblue]

I'm not sure how there is even an argument here. Onboard video (REGARDLESS OF THE CHIPSET MANUFACTURER) consumes some of your computer's RAM to operate (i.e. if you have a 64MB onboard graphics controller and 512MB of RAM, you in effect only have 448MB of RAM).

In a low-end machine (in particular) where memory might be at a premium, there is a sacrifice being made there, in addition to the fact that an onboard card will steal some additional CPU cycles as well.

If you're running a game that is taxing from a memory/CPU perspective, you're better off with a dedicated video card vs. onboard.

I don' think anyone has said that onboard is bad here - but if you have the choice/budget, dedicated (even if it is just a cheapie) is going to serve you better performance-wise, for MAME or other applications.

[runninblue]

If you're running a game that is taxing from a memory/CPU perspective, you're better off with a dedicated video card vs.

So can anyone give me some examples of a not too expensive video card that'll do the job?

[oyama82]

intel hd 4500,nvidia 7000,8200,ati hd 4200

[deepblue]

Hit up newegg.com and grab an nvidia chipset board for 25 bucks or less and you'll be fine. Make sure you get a card with the right interface for your pc, i.e. Agp, pci, pci express

Also ignore the rocky start here in this thread, 99.9% of the members on here are awesome and helpful, just mind the occasional troll

[XNIF]

Why you wanna only use MAME, there are tons of other great emu's (like NULLDC and Project64) that do a lot more than mame. Even in a cabinet some pc games can be great so a fast gpu is really nice.

[Ginsu Victim]

Why you wanna only use MAME, there are tons of other great emu's (like NULLDC and Project64) that do a lot more than mame. Even in a cabinet some pc games can be great so a fast gpu is really nice.

MAME does more than ANY emulator. It's many emulators in one. Every driver is a different emulator, basically.

Some people aren't interested in having consoles in their setup, either.

[deepblue]

I've got a 360 and Wii hooked up to my home theater if i want to play modern console games, and a desktop grade laptop for pc games.

My arcade machine is for classic gaming.

[shfifty]

MSY are selling 512MB nvidia 8400GS for $33 and ati 4350 for $35. These are the two cheapest cards they are selling. If i wanted an upgrade from onboard graphics without breaking the bank (or needing power for current PC games) then one of these cards would be my choice. And you wont have to pay for postage if you live near an MSY.

BUT...

you might as well TRY running whatever you want to run using just onboard graphics. Then if the performance isnt up to scratch go drop your lunch money on a card. Cause maybe you wont need one so theres no loss trying first.

As many people have said, every setup is different so trial and error is your friend.

Another thought i had is to test performance using just the onboard graphics, on your most demanding mame game. Then borrow a graphics card from another computer in your house (your main rig), or from a friend or whatever, and see how much of a performance boost you get. This might help you decide whether its worth buying one or not 

[mmb]

A mid priced ATI or Nvidia card that fits the bus you have is really all you need.  Anywhere from $40 - $80 is a good range.  Really don't need the wiz-bang latest if you're not doing heavy 3D games, but it should be fine if you want some PC games on your cab.

[trevski]

Re what shfifty said.

I'm not sure what the pricing is like in the US but here in the UK if you're looking for a motherboard based around a recent CPU then the price difference between with or without onboard video is either tiny or non existant for the bottom end of the market.

For example:

Asus M4A78LT-M LE : DDR3/AM3 Motherboard with ATI HD3000 built in = £48
Gigabyte GA-MA78LMT-US2H 760G : DDR3/AM3 Motherboard with no VGA = £50

The feature set does differ between these boards but the point still remains - I say go for it, and let us know the results!

Have no fear about building one - Its alot easier than it used to be. Just get the mboard and add CPU, Memory, HDD, PSU.
If your test doesn't pan out, when you add the video card it should disable the onboard video by default - cake.

[jimmy2x2x]

Totally agree with that, one thing you might want to look closely at is the PSU, make sure its suitable, check the amps on the rails and make sure it can power a current graphics card if required.

[Ginsu Victim]

one thing you might want to look closely at is the PSU, make sure its suitable, check the amps on the rails and make sure it can power a current graphics card if required.

+1

Definitely make sure you have a decent PSU. I spent quite a bit of money last year trying to figure out my computer problem I was having before finally realizing it was a shoddy PSU. Didn't help matters that one of the fans in it had died, as well.

[mark shaker]

Over the past few days, I bought a couple new Video Cards from New Egg. Assuming I actually receive my rebates, I got a:

GIGABYTE GV-N240D5-512I GeForce GT 240 512MB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card for $30.

ASUS EN9500GT/DI/1GD2/V2/A GeForce 9500 GT 1GB 128-bit DDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card for $35

How will they perform with MAME?

Which is the better card?

   - Mark

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I can't imagine you'd see any difference at all between the those two in mame.

[mark shaker]

I can't imagine you'd see any difference at all between the those two in mame.

Their specs (clock speeds and such) are *real* close.

I know they are cheap cards, are they better than the onboard video of a modern motherboard?

   - Mark

[Rick]

GIGABYTE GV-N240D5-512I GeForce GT 240 512MB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card for $30.
ASUS EN9500GT/DI/1GD2/V2/A GeForce 9500 GT 1GB 128-bit DDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card for $35

I would go with the ASUS, if only because it has more onboard RAM.  I cannot be certain if this will make a noticeable difference, but every little bit helps.

I know they are cheap cards, are they better than the onboard video of a modern motherboard?

Yes, simply because (as previously stated, I believe) onboard cards will steal some CPU cycles and onboard RAM to run, and that MAME (as most programs do) relies on mainly on the CPU speed and RAM available.

[mmb]

I know they are cheap cards, are they better than the onboard video of a modern motherboard?

   - Mark

Anything included on-board is a much cheaper chip. 

[mark shaker]

I would go with the ASUS, if only because it has more onboard RAM.  I cannot be certain if this will make a noticeable difference, but every little bit helps.

Thank you. I'll stick the 240 in a HTPC.

I guess I won't feel too bad about purchasing the 240. Tom's Hardware had nice things to say. (It was the August 2010  Best PCI Express (PCIe) Card For ~$75.)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-radeon-hd-5570-gaming,2697-2.html

   - Mark

[Rick]

Thank you. I'll stick the 240 in a HTPC.

No worries!  We could always invite oyama82 back, if you want a second opinion.

 

^{(Oh, come on now.  That's funny right thar.)}

[mark shaker]

^{(Oh, come on now.  That's funny right thar.)}

Get 'er done!