Many questions. One post

[DirtyDachshunds]

I've been planning my new 4 player cab for some time now.  I have all of my software configured (Hyperspin), and am almost ready to start construction, but have some questions.  I thought I'd combine all my questions to one post rather than making 10 separate posts.  Any help is appreciated.

1.  Aimtrak.  I've seem to read that aimtrak is the way to go for lightguns, but would like recoil on my gun.  Has anyone tried the aimtrak with a recoil gun?  If so, what gun would you recommend, and how easy/hard is it to configure the gun with the aimtrak electronics.

2. Control Panel plexiglas work. Having never worked with plexiglass, first, what is the best way to adhere the glass to the MDF control panel?  Also, what is the best way to cut the glass?  I was thinking of using the MDF CP as a guide to cut the button/trackball/ect holes with a flush bit router, or can I cut holes say with a hole saw and sand them down using high grit sandpaper?
This is more of a general plexiglas tutorial question.  I haven't been able to find any good links on this.

3.  640x480 PC games.  This is my max resolution and I was wondering if there are any good PC games that are good for a arcade that run in this resolution?  One good one I found was TNMT.  I thought the Lego games (starwars, harry potter) would be good, but their minimum resolution is 800x600. 

4.  Arcade Part Venders.  I have been shopping around for parts and here is what I I think I will be ordering:
2xU360s (ultimarc)
2xhard springs (ultimarc)
2xrestrictor plates (ultimarc)
2xaimtrak electronics, and possible gun kits (ultimarc)
1xiPac4 (ultimarc)
1xoptipac (ultimarc)
1xspinner (undecided)
2xSanwa JLW-UM-8 (jammacade)
42xtranslucent buttons (undecided vendor)
1x3" happ trackball (happcontrols)

I wanted to know if there were cheaper vendors for these parts.  And does anyone know where to get a wide variety of translucent buttons?  I did not including the LEDs in my list as that will be added later.

I think thats all for now.  Before I found this site I knew I wanted to make a arcade cabinet, but after stumbling across these forums and seeing all of your projects, I've been inspired to make something great.

 

[severdhed]

well, i'll do my best:

1. i have never used an aimtrak, so i'll be no help here

2. in most cases you don't need to do anythign to adhere the plexiglass to the control panel.  pushbuttons have a wide top and a nut on the bottom, so every button you install acts like a bolt that holds the plexi on.  if you install Tmolding so that it sits flush with the plexi (covers the edges), then you should have no problems at all.  if your plexi sits above the Tmolding, then you may need some small fasteners around the edges.  i drilled all of my button holes in the MDf, clamped the plexi to it, and used a router to cut the plexi)  there are several good threads on this subject if you use the search feature.

3. no idea, i only run mame

4. there are many good places to order arcade parts, here are a few  that i have used and have been very happy with:

ultimarc.com (excellent customer service, above and beyond anything i have ever experienced, and awesome products U360 and Utrak are amazing)
groovygamegear.com - great selection, great products, great prices
lizardlick.com - good source for japanese style controls, as well as more standard american style stuff, huge selection, quick service
forum member divemaster127, he has a thread in the B/S/T forum, and a webstore at: ARCADEEMULATOR.NET  - he has a great selection and great prices, especially on happ products.

[kronic24601]

I'll also take a crack.

1) I Own two Aimtracks and they work great. In addition to working out the actual guns you should consider how they will attach to your cab, and where your LED board will be mounted. So, is it easy to hack a gun and make the aimtrak work, yes it was. Will it be easy to configure the rumble effect to work? I guess that depends on the gun and how it get's it's signal. I vaguely remember that guns like those require 12v instead of the 5V that USB provides, if this is the case you would have to bring up a USB cable AND another wire for the 12V (+1 for ground probably). So that's something to research first.

2) First of all, if you get a CP top from somewhere like GameonGraphics you may not even NEED a piece of plexi. However, it can look nice and provide some added protection. With that said, people generally prefer traditional plexi rather than Lexan, even though Lexan is easy to work with, it can scratch a bit more easily (I used Lexan, but sorta wished I used Plexi at this point.) As far as how is it held in place. There are pretty much 2 ways. The one stated above which is that the buttons hold it in place. If you do this, you should either use smaller MDF (5/8") just for the top, that way your 1/8 plexi + 5/8 MDF = 3/4 for T-molding. This essentially makes a slot border for your plexi to fit into and then won't fall/shift in anyway. OR, some people still use 3/4" MDF, but they offset the T-molding so the same effect applies, but they round the edges of the bottom of the CP so you can't tell (See Mountains project here). Lastly, people use black carriage bolts through the plexi ... this is also more "arcade standard" from what I can tell.

3) Check out this thread HERE

4) 42 BUTTONS? WTH?. Dude that's kinda alot. You might want to post pictures of your intended CP to get feedback or risk ending up on CRAPMAME. I cannot imagine that you would actually need that many buttons.

As far as your list goes that all seems like a good option. I have used a lot of items from Ultimarc, but am not familiar with the Optipac or Happ trackball. I have spinners & a trackball from Groovygame gear that work great, and the nice thing is there is no need for an optipac with something that is USB plug n play.

I agree with the above post about those 4 vendors, they are really almost all you will need. As for the translucent buttons, unfortunately other than Lizard lick the only guy I found (ponyboy) is no longer selling them.

One last thing, if you do use LED's with the translucent buttons, you should use button diffusers or go blind. Also, you don't HAVE to use translucent buttons to get a cool light up effect. I have two panels, one with translucent and one with opaque HAPP buttons (red, blue, yellow, and green) and both look really cool. At times I even prefer the opaque kind over the others. If you want some really powerful LED's to really bright up those opaque buttons check these out. They are 100ma instead of the standard 20ma, so they will be a bit brighter.

My only other suggestions would be to check out the wiki, read other peoples projects for ideas (just sort by the most viewed) and be sure to post plans for constructive feedback.

[DirtyDachshunds]

Thanks guys.  A ton of great infor.  kronic, below are some responses I had

From kronic24601::

I'll also take a crack.

1) I Own two Aimtracks and they work great. In addition to working out the actual guns you should consider how they will attach to your cab, and where your LED board will be mounted. So, is it easy to hack a gun and make the aimtrak work, yes it was. Will it be easy to configure the rumble effect to work? I guess that depends on the gun and how it get's it's signal. I vaguely remember that guns like those require 12v instead of the 5V that USB provides, if this is the case you would have to bring up a USB cable AND another wire for the 12V (+1 for ground probably). So that's something to research first.
>>>I haven't done any research on the guns yet.  But if the guns are 12V for the recoil, it might be more of a hassle then it is worth.  I assume for the 12V you would generally get that off a molex connection in the PC?  And it would probably need shielded separately from the USB cable going to the gun.  I'll look into that.

2) First of all, if you get a CP top from somewhere like GameonGraphics you may not even NEED a piece of plexi. However, it can look nice and provide some added protection. With that said, people generally prefer traditional plexi rather than Lexan, even though Lexan is easy to work with, it can scratch a bit more easily (I used Lexan, but sorta wished I used Plexi at this point.) As far as how is it held in place. There are pretty much 2 ways. The one stated above which is that the buttons hold it in place. If you do this, you should either use smaller MDF (5/8") just for the top, that way your 1/8 plexi + 5/8 MDF = 3/4 for T-molding. This essentially makes a slot border for your plexi to fit into and then won't fall/shift in anyway. OR, some people still use 3/4" MDF, but they offset the T-molding so the same effect applies, but they round the edges of the bottom of the CP so you can't tell (See Mountains project here). Lastly, people use black carriage bolts through the plexi ... this is also more "arcade standard" from what I can tell.

>>>I am using my own design for the art, and don't know where I will have it printed yet.  I want to use plexi regardless of the art print.  I think I will just use the buttons as bolts and I'll try to find 5/8" MDF if I can.  I didn't even think about that regarding T-modling

3) Check out this thread HERE

4) 42 BUTTONS? WTH?. Dude that's kinda alot. You might want to post pictures of your intended CP to get feedback or risk ending up on CRAPMAME. I cannot imagine that you would actually need that many buttons.
>>>Here is what I was thinking.  I want this cabinet to play almost everything.  So with that said, here is my current button layout.
>>>6 player buttons X 4 players = 24 buttons
>>>4 coin buttons (under the CP)
>>>4 player start buttons
>>>2 quick load/quick save buttons
>>>2 buttons dedicated to the trackball (thought it would be nice for golden tee)
>>>1 pause button
>>>1 exit button
>>>4 pinball buttons under the CP
>>>=42 buttons
>>>I know its a ton, but my CP is pretty big and 8 of the buttons will be under the CP

As far as your list goes that all seems like a good option. I have used a lot of items from Ultimarc, but am not familiar with the Optipac or Happ trackball. I have spinners & a trackball from Groovygame gear that work great, and the nice thing is there is no need for an optipac with something that is USB plug n play.

>>>I'll look into GGG.  That may be an easier option instead of the optipac.

I agree with the above post about those 4 vendors, they are really almost all you will need. As for the translucent buttons, unfortunately other than Lizard lick the only guy I found (ponyboy) is no longer selling them.

One last thing, if you do use LED's with the translucent buttons, you should use button diffusers or go blind. Also, you don't HAVE to use translucent buttons to get a cool light up effect. I have two panels, one with translucent and one with opaque HAPP buttons (red, blue, yellow, and green) and both look really cool. At times I even prefer the opaque kind over the others. If you want some really powerful LED's to really bright up those opaque buttons check these out. They are 100ma instead of the standard 20ma, so they will be a bit brighter.

>>>What would you say is brighter?  The 100ma LEDs with opaque buttons, or the 20ma LEDs with translucent buttons using the diffusers?  If they are about the same, I may try the opaque button route.  They'd definitely look better without the lights.

My only other suggestions would be to check out the wiki, read other peoples projects for ideas (just sort by the most viewed) and be sure to post plans for constructive feedback.

>>>I'll be sure to do that.  Thanks!

[DirtyDachshunds]

Oh and how do you cut MDF so that the trackball mounting plate is completely flush with the wood?  ie I don't want the mounting plate on top my my graphic.  I've seen pictures of this, but always wondered how they did it.

[kronic24601]

1) Yes, the Yellow from the Molex is the best way to get 12V to your items.

2) 5/8 should be standard I think. I got mine at the local HomeDepot, but they have it at lowes and other locations. like I said though you can always use the 3/4 and just off-set the t-molding and round the bottom edge. It looks just as good in the end. Also, I have printed 2 CP's, side art, and a marquee with http://www.gameongrafix.com/ and they did a fantastic job. You can also get a small discount if you type BYOAC in the coupon code on checkout.

3)
>>>6 player buttons X 4 players = 24 buttons
Is there really any games you will need 6 buttons for players 3 & 4? I'd go down to 4 for each of those. Most games that use more than 4 are 2player games anyway. Unless you have a BURNING desire to play a specific game that meets this requirement, you will end up wishing you had a smaller, and more simple layout that "looks" good and feels good too. Plus, your going to have SOOO many games to play anyway, you'll probably never get to that "one game" that uses all 6 buttons (I'm not even aware of one).
>>>4 coin buttons (under the CP)
A lot of options here, you could use GGG coin buttons, or if you use an actual coin door, some people just mod them so when they are pressed in (the eject) it it's a micro and get's coins. Or you can just do a coin button as planned. I don't know if you want to have a pushbutton down low though ... I've never thought those look that good (def NOT original arcade looking)
>>>4 player start buttons
Yes
>>>2 quick load/quick save button
The Ultimarc feature of the WinPac has a SHIFTED option so you don't need this. Plus, most people feel this is a way to ruin the game experience. However, even if you want it, just use the shift feature to accomplish it (ie. hold down P1 Start + some other key to save, etc...)
>>>2 buttons dedicated to the trackball (thought it would be nice for golden tee)
Not that you can't use other buttons, but this is probably fine (mouse left and right click)
>>>1 pause button
I have a Play button in an ADMIN panel above my CP (not on it) with the play button that also serves as a pause button ... but if it was going to be on my CP ...  
>>>1 exit button
This is pretty useful, but as I mentioned above I have this on my admin panel above my CP.
>>>4 pinball buttons under the CP
First off, why 4? You would need one on either side and one in front yes? if you want to have two on either side that would be 5. But keep in mind, these should probably be BLACK and not transparent with LED's.

4) As far as brightness goes, the translucent are probably "brighter still", but not necessarily in a good way. The opaque blue buttons REALLY bright up well, and red does good too, the only ones that are a slight issue are the green. They have a problem with getting the light through. I ended up modding mine to use a 6-LED 12V car bulb to get the look I needed.

EDIT: Looking at THIS WEBSITE I could not see any 4 Player games that require more than 4 buttons... so I'm pretty sure the only reason you would use those are for console emulation, but you might as well get a USB gamepad and use the original-ish controllers for that.

[DirtyDachshunds]

3) My main reason for having 6 buttons per player is for console games (dreamcast, playstation) and less for MAME.  Like I said I want this arcade is set up to play everything.
I am planning on using a 4 person coin door, but I wanted to have hidden coin buttons as well.  I am planning on either having these buttons on the underside of the control panel (that hangs out) or on the base of the control panel right below the board. 
I know the iPac has the shifted option, and I've gone back and forth about using it instead of having dedicated buttons for Save/Load, but I put them in my plans and it doesn't look cluttered.  I attached my plans.
I've thought of doing an admin panel as you did, which I still haven't wrote off yet.  I would put my exit, pause, save, and load buttons there.  But even with them on the CP, I don't find it too cluttered.
And yes you're right I would only need 3 pinball buttons.  One on each side and one in front, I can use other buttons for tilt.  And those would be black.  Also, the player start buttons will not be translucent.

And I think you talked me into using opaque buttons, and doing the lighting as an addition later.

[bkenobi]

If you want p3 and p4 to be able to play Dreamcast games, they will be crippled (in certain titles) by having a digital joystick rather than an analog one.  I personally wanted to be able to use my 7-button 2 player setup to play everything from earlier generations of consoles (NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, etc).  When I actually played these games with my CP, I found that it kinda sucked.  I bought a pair of wireless gamepads and have been VERY happy with the results.  Check out the Logitech Rumblepads.  They ROCK!

[kronic24601]

If you want p3 and p4 to be able to play Dreamcast games, they will be crippled (in certain titles) by having a digital joystick rather than an analog one.  I personally wanted to be able to use my 7-button 2 player setup to play everything from earlier generations of consoles (NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, etc).  When I actually played these games with my CP, I found that it kinda sucked.  I bought a pair of wireless gamepads and have been VERY happy with the results.  Check out the Logitech Rumblepads.  They ROCK!

+1, I also really don't like the console feel on the Arcade. I'm working on original controller mods for NES/SNES/N64 for the same reason.

@ DirtyDachshunds,

In the end, you will have to make the call. People go both ways out here, I ended up building two panels to keep the size down I mean, your panel is going to be HUGE, but if you have the space then more power to you.

[DirtyDachshunds]

Would P3 and P4 really be "crippled" playing dreamcast games on an 8 way?  I could always get two more U360s, but i dont think it's worth it.

[kronic24601]

well, any game that uses analog (the thumb stick) won't really work right... so yes  crippled would sound about right.

[RayB]

For 640x480 minimum resolution, you're looking at games no older than, mmmm maybe 2006. Although, CASUAL GAMES have supported 640x480 as their default resolution up until around 1 or 2 years ago. (By Casual games I mean the PopCap, Gamehouse, Mumbo Jumbo games)

[kronic24601]

Back to the LED on opaque buttons...

Just wanted to say this one other thing.

1) Use the same color LED for the button EXCEPT for Yellow... for that use a white light. Yellow LED on Yellow button looks orange.

2) You may want to try using regular LEDs on blue, red, and yellow, and use the 100ma Green LEds on the green buttons. I haven't tried that, but that might work well.

I have tried regular 20ma leds on opaque buttons and they all work very well with the green as the exception.

Ok I'm done now.

[severdhed]

as for your trackball question, you can either use a router on top of the mdf to make the mounting plate sit flush with the top of the panel, or get a Utrak from ultimarc.  they are great trackballs and are designed to mount in a 3/4" panel without a mounting plate at all.  i love mine

[trevski]

1.  Aimtrak.  I've seem to read that aimtrak is the way to go for lightguns, but would like recoil on my gun.  Has anyone tried the aimtrak with a recoil gun?  If so, what gun would you recommend, and how easy/hard is it to configure the gun with the aimtrak electronics.

There is no support for recoil from the Aimtrak board itself so some kind of secondary circuit would be required.

I've got myself a couple of Happ recoil guns, gutted them and routed the USB and two wires for the 12v supply up the armored cable with the intention of setting up something to trigger the recoil solenoid whenever the trigger is pulled (best solution for me as I'm using mame, system32 and original PC games).
I've looked into setting something up whereby the 12v line is controlled by the trigger microswitch and is connected to a relay to control the low  (9v?) voltage that the aimtrak uses but I'm not entirely sure it would work. Also it would only release the solenoid and cause the "recoil" after the trigger was released so that would be kinda lame.

Hopefully someone else could shed a little light on it as a lightgun game without recoil is a little lacking to my mind.

Almost forgot - I'm using a separate power supply (off an old printer) to feed the recoil solenoids - I read somewhere that they put quite a strain on the supply and are quite nasty regarding noise.

[DirtyDachshunds]

1.  Aimtrak.  I've seem to read that aimtrak is the way to go for lightguns, but would like recoil on my gun.  Has anyone tried the aimtrak with a recoil gun?  If so, what gun would you recommend, and how easy/hard is it to configure the gun with the aimtrak electronics.

There is no support for recoil from the Aimtrak board itself so some kind of secondary circuit would be required.

I've got myself a couple of Happ recoil guns, gutted them and routed the USB and two wires for the 12v supply up the armored cable with the intention of setting up something to trigger the recoil solenoid whenever the trigger is pulled (best solution for me as I'm using mame, system32 and original PC games).
I've looked into setting something up whereby the 12v line is controlled by the trigger microswitch and is connected to a relay to control the low  (9v?) voltage that the aimtrak uses but I'm not entirely sure it would work. Also it would only release the solenoid and cause the "recoil" after the trigger was released so that would be kinda lame.

Hopefully someone else could shed a little light on it as a lightgun game without recoil is a little lacking to my mind.

Almost forgot - I'm using a separate power supply (off an old printer) to feed the recoil solenoids - I read somewhere that they put quite a strain on the supply and are quite nasty regarding noise.

Thanks for the help.  I think I may just bypass the recoil and get the gun housing with the aimtrak kit.  The extra work and cost doesn't seem worth it.  I may add recoil guns in the future.