720 help...

[Lilwolf]

Who had the website that hacking the 720 controllers? (Jake's 720 mame page).

His link is down and I only stored the link....

I was hoping to double check the power connections before I was going to plug mine in to see if the encoder board works.

Thanks!

[Aceldamor]

Jerry Jannis has it

http://link.mywwwserver.com/~jstookey/arcade/720/

[Lilwolf]

THANKS!  I don' know why my link got messed up..

[Aceldamor]

np  


Did you use a mouse hack or wire it into your optipac?  

Let me know because I will be attempting the same thing shortly.....

[Lilwolf]

Oscar mouse hack...  assuming that the optics work..

Otherwise I will post about how to hack one with an Oscar hack, and two Oscar optical boards.

[SirPoonga]

Cool, I've been planning on doing that but I don;t have a second set of optics right now.

[Aceldamor]

Your not using the original 720 encoder board? I'm still new to the whole hacking scenario.

Could you explain where the 2 oscar optic boards come into play? Or do you mean you'll use Oscar's optic boards if the original optic board doesn't work....

[SirPoonga]

Do you know how the 720 controller worked?  let me find the thread....


http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=5015

[SirPoonga]

Lilwolf, what's your plan?  Which oscar spinner you plan on trying it with?  The pro is perfect ( I hope to get this job soon in time for the pro to go cheaper).  

You plan on making two notches a little deeper and setting the second optics a little deeper at due north?

[Aceldamor]

Thanks Poonga, I've read that thread and I do have the controller.  

My question was more allong the lines of does Lilwolf have the original optic board that came with the controller and does it work? If not is he going to use 2 of oscars optic boards?  I was a little hazy on how he worded his post....

[SirPoonga]

I'm sure he meant optic boards from oscarcontrols.

[Aceldamor]

I'm sure he meant optic boards from oscarcontrols.

Heh,

I was under the impression that he got his hands on a 720 controller.   That would be a cool hack to see done, mabye this hack could be one of the "add on" kits that Oscar was talking about with his new spinner..

[SirPoonga]

Actually, you are right, he is hackigna  720 controller, but using oscar optics apparently.

I think an addon kit for 720 would be easy.  Wouldn't be able to easily do it with a joystick, but using a modified knob would be much better.  The rubber knob from oscarcontrols would even be better.

[Lilwolf]

Yes I have an original 720 controllers.  And yes I mean replacing the 720 optic board with two Oscars optic boards if the original optic board is dead (don't know yet).

the optics on it are different then most.  It has two on one board.... One for the real optics, and one that gets triggered when 'north' comes around.

I picked up my controller from Oscar last weekend.  He looked at it, but I don't think he is interested in reproducing them btw.  To many special parts.... To specialized controller... You really can only use it for one game.  

I think he could come up with something that would work with one of his other spinners.  But that would be attempting to make something the feels like a 720 controller instead of something that is like a 720 controller...  

But the biggest trouble with this.... Oscar doesn't really like 720 and never played / seen the original arcade.  So I don't think he will personally have the interest to do it...  

So to get him  to make anything... Bug him to start playing it.  Hack a cabinet and invite him over.  Make him wish he had one at home!  (then try to convince him he could make them for cheap enought that he could sell them for any kind of profit... but you might have to lie at this one)

[SirPoonga]

Hehe, once I get the parts (thanks jerry for sending my those sticks) I will be making a 720 hack onto a pro spinner sometime.

[OSCAR]

Yes I have an original 720 controllers.  And yes I mean replacing the 720 optic board with two Oscars optic boards if the original optic board is dead (don't know yet).

the optics on it are different then most.  It has two on one board.... One for the real optics, and one that gets triggered when 'north' comes around.

I picked up my controller from Oscar last weekend.  He looked at it, but I don't think he is interested in reproducing them btw.  To many special parts.... To specialized controller... You really can only use it for one game.  

I think he could come up with something that would work with one of his other spinners.  But that would be attempting to make something the feels like a 720 controller instead of something that is like a 720 controller...  

But the biggest trouble with this.... Oscar doesn't really like 720 and never played / seen the original arcade.  So I don't think he will personally have the interest to do it...  

So to get him  to make anything... Bug him to start playing it.  Hack a cabinet and invite him over.  Make him wish he had one at home!  (then try to convince him he could make them for cheap enought that he could sell them for any kind of profit... but you might have to lie at this one)

Ouch!  Did I really sound that harsh on 720??  

Before any 720 fans start burning effigies in my front lawn, I guess what I really was trying to say was that since I've never seen a 720 in an arcade (much less played one with the real controls) I don't really appreciate the game in MAME as much as I probably would with "real" controls.  I still believe that a true reproduction would be costly and not a huge seller since it can only really be used for a 720 effectively.

However, when I step back and look at it as a kit for my upcoming Vortex spinner, things start to look much better...  I put together some sketches and mocked up how a simple kit could be adapted to the Vortex for dual encoder wheels, optic boards, etc. and it seems that the kit might just be 4 extra parts.  I would take exception to the roller chain & sprockets in the kit as that seems to just add friction and not affect how the skater is actually controlled.  I don't discount that the additional friction is nice for the game, but how much extra $$ is that additional friction worth?  I would take a SWAG at $30 - $40 to add the sprockets, another shaft & mounting, and the roller chain.  I'm probably low on my guess, too.

What I'm not really sure about is the spinner knob.  The first thing that comes to mind is to use a small 4" wheel with a handle, like shown below.  That should simulate the movement and distance of the angled joystick fairly well, at least better than a traditional spinner knob.  Although, the handle wouldn't be angled like the original.  Any thoughts on this, is it worth pursuing?

[ThePunk]

lightly O.T. but there's a "real" solution to this problem on ebay right now...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3234967463&category=13718&rd=1

[SirPoonga]

Where did you find that,  that's exactly what I am loking for.  I also want to make a modified knob that will accept a joystick on top of it.  That I can make with plastic, dremel, and hot glue:)

[ThePunk]

Where did you find that,  that's exactly what I am loking for.  I also want to make a modified knob that will accept a joystick on top of it.  That I can make with plastic, dremel, and hot glue:)

Mcmaster-carr carries those handles.

[OSCAR]

Where did you find that,  that's exactly what I am loking for.  I also want to make a modified knob that will accept a joystick on top of it.  That I can make with plastic, dremel, and hot glue:)

Industrial suppliers like mcmaster carry these.  They are commonly used in plant HVAC, piping, & liquid management systems.  I see them all the time in the auto plants.

[SirPoonga]

Do they carry one that fits on your spinner shafts?

If I get around to it I will sketch my idea for making a joystick that sets on top of my spinner to play 720.  I don't want a dedicated 720 controller

[OSCAR]

Do they carry one that fits on your spinner shafts?

Not directly.  If I were to incorporate this type of wheel, I would have to include an adapter in the kit.

If I get around to it I will sketch my idea for making a joystick that sets on top of my spinner to play 720.  I don't want a dedicated 720 controller

Hence a kit for a spinner...  The idea I have doesn't affect the operation of the spinner for spinner games, just changing the knob to a wheel.  This is, of course, if there is any interest in a 720 kit in the first place.  

[SirPoonga]

Hence a kit for a spinner...  The idea I have doesn't affect the operation of the spinner for spinner games, just changing the knob to a wheel.  This is, of course, if there is any interest in a 720 kit in the first place.  

Yeah.  my idea I am going to have to do some modification:)  Like I said, I plan on putting a joystick on top of the spinner.  Will need a way to secure that down:)

[Lilwolf]

Ok, I had an idea a few days ago that..  But a quick point..

The 720 controllers was a little forgiving.  They have a little give, you don't have to have 100% smooth circle (otherwise you probably could never spin it around that fast).  But there is a little give.

So if this is an important part of it..

How about this... have a center shaft of a spinner that flattens out at the end.  Then have the ball top connected to a bent metal that at the end fits around the flattened shaft (and attached so it can't come off... but isn't firm against it).   Then add the circular disk at the top...  I think this might work pretty well..  It would also reduce stress from the main shaft that might be needed since you are talking about connecting it to a spinner shaft that isn't ment to be yanked real hard.

If I had any easy webspace I would draw what I mean and show you...

[SirPoonga]

If I had any easy webspace I would draw what I mean and show you...

You do, here.  250k limit attachment.

[u_rebelscum]

Yes I have an original 720 controllers.  And yes I mean replacing the 720 optic board with two Oscars optic boards if the original optic board is dead (don't know yet).

the optics on it are different then most.  It has two on one board.... One for the real optics, and one that gets triggered when 'north' comes around.

Late getting into this one, but I have a 720 controller with dead optical sensors.  I tried soldering new ones in, but I think I shorted the solder accross somewhere.  (I'm not good at soldering.)

LilWolf, how are you thinking of using those oscar optical boards?  I might be able to try it out before you and let you know how it goes.

[Lilwolf]

Oscar.... How much stress can go on the center post of a spinner before its warped?  This is the trouble I see with the wheel and knob from above...

But what I was thinking is like this... Then center shaft having an end like this..

http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=8803+SL

Then have a bent handle connected to it... maybe with a little give a little slack in the screw hole in the handle.

So basically it can move just a little... So if you try to spin it in a not so perfect circle, you aren't twisting the center shaft of the spinner.

I could see it as a addon that fits on top of a control panel with a normal spinner... or a spinner dedicated to 720.  

So the connection between the spinner and the handle would be loose up/down and forward and back... but not left and right (spinning).  I think this would reduce the center stress..

[Lilwolf]

Attempting to attach again...  I don't know what happened before...

[Lilwolf]

hahaha  it works!

I will now start infesting this board with lousy mspaint programs!

Just wait for my new Sig!

[Lilwolf]

Maybe something like this...

[Lilwolf]

Ok.. I'll stop...

Sorry for taking over the thread....

Bad dog!  Bad dog!

[jerryjanis]

I would take exception to the roller chain & sprockets in the kit as that seems to just add friction and not affect how the skater is actually controlled.  I don't discount that the additional friction is nice for the game, but how much extra $$ is that additional friction worth?

I would agree that the extra friction is pretty low on the list of priorities for a 720 reproduction...  I'm amazed that they put that much effort into the arcade joystick in the first place.

The first thing that comes to mind is to use a small 4" wheel with a handle, like shown below.  That should simulate the movement and distance of the angled joystick fairly well, at least better than a traditional spinner knob.  Although, the handle wouldn't be angled like the original.  Any thoughts on this, is it worth pursuing?

I think that a using a knob/handle like that would be an improvement over a regular spinner, but it wouldn't be a great improvement.  I could be wrong here, but I think that a knob like that would feel too much like playing the game with a steering wheel.  Also, you would have to be too gentle with it to play the game with the frantic spins the way it was meant to be played.

One thing that crossed my mind when looking at the manual for the joystick:
http://jstookey.com/arcade/720/720man_controller_a.jpg
http://jstookey.com/arcade/720/720man_controller_b.jpg

was that the "pivot arm" on the joystick:


is really just a spinner knob with some excess material carved off of it.  Therefore, most of the work of a reproduction would be to make the top part of the joystick(the second page of the manual) which could be plopped on top of a spinner.

A big problem with that is that the base of the joystick would be 5 inches higher than the control panel.  I really like how Lilwolf's idea addresses that problem while only using a couple of extra parts.

[OSCAR]

I think that a using a knob/handle like that would be an improvement over a regular spinner, but it wouldn't be a great improvement.  I could be wrong here, but I think that a knob like that would feel too much like playing the game with a steering wheel.  Also, you would have to be too gentle with it to play the game with the frantic spins the way it was meant to be played.

One thing that crossed my mind when looking at the manual for the joystick:
http://link.mywwwserver.com/~jstookey/arcade/720/720man_controller_a.jpg
http://link.mywwwserver.com/~jstookey/arcade/720/720man_controller_b.jpg

was that the "pivot arm" on the joystick:


is really just a spinner knob with some excess material carved off of it.  Therefore, most of the work of a reproduction would be to make the top part of the joystick(the second page of the manual) which could be plopped on top of a spinner.

A big problem with that is that the base of the joystick would be 5 inches higher than the control panel.  I really like how Lilwolf's idea addresses that problem while only using a couple of extra parts.

I also agree that a wheel w/ handle would not be the best solution considering the way the original control was designed to be handled.  I guess I was thinking more of a compromise between a typical spinner knob and the angled joystick used on 720.

From what Lilwolf had explained to me when he stopped by, I see how the "slop" in the control helps with the quick spins required in the game.  His concept looks great to me, and would most likely give more than enough play in the handle to accomplish this.  I think Lilwolf has a terrific idea, however I also see this becoming more of a dedicated controller than a spinner add-on based on how it is implented.  I would agree that a method for installing a spinner in this way so it could be used as a standard spinner or 720 controller is possible, but then it would require the installer to plan on this type of control when constructing the panel, and it wouldn't be a simple add-on kit as I was suggesting.

Perhaps it would make the controller more usable if a custom angled joystick top was designed to fit over the spinner than to use a wheel w/ handle, but then we aren't talking about off-the-shelf components which are much cheaper than small runs of custom made parts.

I would be afraid that by making the control too adaptive to 720 would lessen its effectiveness as a good spinner for games like Tempest or Arkanoid, and then it would make it more like a 720 controller that can also be used on spinner games, and not vice versa.  To date, I would bet that most people are using a standard spinner to play 720, and not a 720 controller to play spinner games.  From what I gather, the people most interested in a good 720 controller either have already bought an original one (jerryjanis, Lilwolf, & u_rebel to name a few in particular), or probably wouldn't settle for a spinner add-on that "gets you close", you know what I mean?

[Aceldamor]

I thought about using a spinner for 720, it was one of my favs for a long time...After seeing Jerry's site on a 720 hack I was on a quest to get an authentic stick for myself...after seeing what e-bay had to offer, and how much they were going for I couldn't justify spending the money for it. I happened to mention it to the guy at my local shop and he offered me a killer deal on a stick, but it needed a new plastic cover. I bought it in a heartbeat...kinda silly for one game, but it was a great deal and I loved the game...

[SirPoonga]

Jerry, yeah, that's sort of my idea.  I am going to use your joysticks you sent me toward a 720 hack.  But no money makes it hard to get other supplies

I'm looking at getting another spinner knob sometime and doing an idea like your, but gluing a piece of plastic sheet on top and cutting a hole in the sheet for the joystick.

[Lilwolf]

How about this as an idea.

Have the spinner attach to a very sturdy round disk on tpo with a whole in it.

And under that would be a true free flowing not attached disk with a joystick on it at an angle.  The joystick going through the whole.

I think the disks would have to be very very strong... but shouldn't take all that much.  The trouble would be is that the outter disk would take upward force on ones side when the joystick is pressed down on the other.

So you would get the slop from the bottom disk being able to move in and out a little to reduce the stress (like the original)

smaller space...

You could attach it to a normal spinner as an option...

You could even add a peice of felt or something between the disks to increase friction like the original!  (I don't know what you would do about the static charge...

Anyway, just another idea.