Designing a cabinet -- need suggestions.

[Daver4676]

I'm about to build a cabinet to use with MAME but being picky as I am, I want to factor in as many different controls as needed.  This is what I envision:

1) 4 player controls -- the main two players (front and center of screen) will have at least 6 buttons each while the other two will probably have no more than four.  

2) Need two trackballs (have a particular fondness for Marble Madness) definately.

3) A spinner.  I was going to put in two but the only 2 player game I can think of that needs it would be Forgotten Worlds.  

4) An analog joystick for games like Tron.  I haven't seen many for sale on sites - but has anyone been able to take apart a cheap store-bought joystick and incorpate it into their cabinet successfully?

5) A second joystick for the first two players for games like Robotron and Smash TV.  I may scrap this if I can position the four player controllers in a way that one person can reach both with minimal effort.  

So any suggestions with the above base on previous experiences or projects?   I intend to do extensive measuring and testing but any input would be appreciated.  I have seen some really inspired designs (i.e. rotating control panel) but that's something I'm not looking to do.  

Swappable panels was also a thought but I want to make it so that anyone can walk up to my cabinet and play a game with no help from me (i.e. if I have guests over and I'm too busy in my own cloud of distractions).  Although I wouldn't mind making a totally seperate You Don't Know Jack panel (with built in keyboard!) in the future.

[meta87]

All I can say is that I've seen people try to make these kinda control panels and they end up being huge and very cluttered.  

Maybe you can be the one to change that though!

[Apollo]

I agree, for two track balls you need about 2 square feet of area! That's a lot of real estate for one game. Maybe you should look at either rotating design
http://www.1uparcade.com/ is probably the most well known example and IMHO still the best.
You could also look at building two swappable control panels one for 4 player and 2 player fighters etc and one for trackball and spinner games? Your default control panel would be the 4 player one.
Believe me you are looking at too many controls on one panel.

[rockhopper]

Or you could build about 3 machines  

[paigeoliver]

A few comments.

Tron is not an analog game. I believe it is actually a 4-way game. (Or to be more exact, the software is 4-way, but the sticks are 8-way but with very tiny diagonal areas).

2 trackballs just so you can play dual marble madness, but no 4-way at all? (There goes about 180 unique titles).

Puchi Carat is a 2 player simultaneous spinner game, and there are others as well.

With two trackballs, 4 primary joysticks, 2 seconday joysticks, 1 trigger stick, and a spinner, there is no way that anyone will be able to walk up and play without your assistance anyway.

Guys can USUALLY figure out where the player one position is, but I can't tell you how many of them will start bashing on the first button in the second row of buttons and wondering why it isn't shooting.  As for girls? Just forget about it. Girls tend to gravitate towards the most eye catching control on the panel, no matter what the game. If that means trackball for Pac-Man, light gun for street fighter, or one hand on each stick for Arkanoid, then so be it.

I used to have a panel with 2 eight ways, one 4-way, trackball, and spinner, and far too many people went for the wrong controls. Later I had a cabinet with a single player layout that had one 4way, one 8-way, and one trackball that all shared a single bank of buttons. That one was even worse. Most people had trouble with it.

Finally I went with what I have now. A vertical cabinet with a single 4-way and 2 buttons. Along with a horizontal cabinet with two 8ways and six buttons each. The only problems unassisted friends have now is the one about thinking the fire button is the first one in the second row. Oh, and some people get confused because the horizontal cabinet takes quarters (or you have to trip the coin switches at least), and the vertical cabinet coins up with player2 start. I may just have to wire the coin switch on the vertical cabinet too, just to keep things consistant.

I am probably going to toss together a trackball only cabinet for a third machine. I know the control panel is just going to cry out for some other kind of control (analog stick, or spinner, since I don't have either anymore), but I am going to resist, since extra controls confuse people.

I think I got way off track here. But basically. Real arcade games did not have extra controls (except for unused buttons, which were common in conversion games), and extra controls tend to confuse people.

[ErikRuud]

Find JelloSlug's website and look at his modular design.

[Daver4676]

Thanks for all your input guys.  I read and took note on everything brought up.

Although I initially wanted to avoid it - I found the rotating control panel is actually not as clunky as it sounded.   Thanks for the link Apollo!

Secondly, thanks for reminding me of priorities paigeoliver.  Completely omitted a 4 way stick while carrying on about having two trackballs was a slightly ridiculous notion.  And you're right about Tron, I was completely thrown off by the stick itself.  I may completely omit an analog stick as I seen it almost never in any design example and most games that would benefit from it work swimmingly - albeit not authentic - with a trackball.

As for the theory of no assistance from me -- well I may be giving casually curious people too much credit.  I was planning on using a front end that allows a JPG to display right before the game boots (I saw one that allows you to do just that though haven't yet tested it) displaying control instructions.  But as I'm in the tech support field, I should know by now users completely ignore written directions often.  I'm still going to do that, but I should probably keep myself handy.

Another thanks paigeoliver for the dual spinner game reminder.  I think Atari's OFF THE WALL and WARLORDS also incorporated muliple spinners.  But since none of those games really grab my interest I may just opt for the single spinner specifically for Tron, Breakout, Tempest, Gyruss etc.  

I'm going to take the advice and try to lay out one panel with four player setup (the middle two with six or seven buttons each) if I can and see if I can space out the two trackballs, a four-way, spinner and Tron grip style stick on panel two (I'm testing a layout now to see how much physical intereference they'll cause each other).  I still wanted to dedicate panel three specifically for You Don't Know Jack (buzzer buttons, a 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and screw button plus a keyboard) to it but if I have to sacrifice it because panel 2 ends up so cluttered it prevents comfortable play then I will.

This project may take some time but I'll be posting progress on my site when it gets off the ground (hopefully in a month or so after planning).  

[SirPoonga]

WHAT!!!  You no like 4 player warlords

Fitting all of that onto one panel without being akward and cluttered it impossible.  You will need to make a modular, swappable, or rotating design.

Also, check out rampage as a three person tball game:)

For me for 3rd and 4th player I decided they will have to suffer with a usb gamepad:)

[Daver4676]

Fitting all of that onto one panel without being akward and cluttered it impossible.  You will need to make a modular, swappable, or rotating design.

For me for 3rd and 4th player I decided they will have to suffer with a usb gamepad:)

Yeah I've decided on a rotating control panel based on two designs I saw (1uparcade's and mametrix).  

I hear your suggestion for two gamepads but I began planning this Cab with 4 player games in mind (specifically Simpsons and TMNT) right down to having four coin slots.  Although I may have to sacrifice comfort a bit on a regular sized cab with a quartet of gamers thrashing away -- but it's still better than the Gauntlet machine's four player setup.

[SirPoonga]

Actually, oyu know what I think would be cool, having the 3rd and 4th player as pedistals that connect via USB.  That's a design I haven't seen anyone try.  that way they can be stuck in the corner when not in use.  A taller person could stand behind the 1 and 2 players to get a better angle of the screen, etc...

[Lilwolf]

How about a pedistal cabinet with multiple parts to it...

And the monitor that swivals?

Might be pretty sweet!  Especially if you could find a way of moving in automatically so you walk up to a pedistal part... and then you push a button... the monitor rotates to you... and you start playing!

And you really need more then one 4way!  With all that stuff you need a defender joystick with defender buttons... a 4 way with the asteroid buttons next to it... and a 4way for qbert... And you haven't mentioned steering wheels or star wars controllers yet!  

[Apollo]

Just have your 4 way set up in a defender layout with a mounting plate ( drill the mounting plate for the reverse button ) and use OSCARS restrictor when you want to play defender, that's what I'm doing and it will be sooo sweeet.

[Daver4676]

I was actually thinking of adding some sort of swivel mechanism in console for the 4-way joystick for games like Q-Bert.  I may be biting off more than I can chew with that one though.  I'll put that on the drawing board.

I'm still trying to see if it's possible to do the four joystick thing in a 25-inch limitation giving the leftmost and rightmost joysticks minimal (but functional) space while given the two center joysticks as much room as possible.  I may add a few inches to the width if possible though I can't add too much that'll it look completed daft!

[paigeoliver]

The real problem with 4 player control panels isn't fitting all the controls on, it is fitting 4 grown men in front of it.

[Apollo]

Do you mean 25" long!?
My cp is set for 2 players and a 4 way in the middle, no spinner or trackball but space above the 4 way to add one later and it's approx 48" long!
I spit on your puny 25" LMAO ( kidding ).
Mind you it is a cp for a 26" arcade monitor and a hugemungus cabinet so it doesn't look out of place.
It looks the bomb as you will all see when it is finished ( in 6 months time ).

[Daver4676]

I wanted to keep the cabinet a sleek design (no protruding bits), though that may severely affects four-player ability.  I'm probably going to make a quickie mock-up see what I can do and see if four grown men can deal with the lack of personal space.   The other reason I want to try to keep them somewhat closer than tradition four-player cabs is so it can double as controls for two-player double-stick games (i.e Smash TV).  

At any rate, I'm not going to say "can't" until I can fully play around with the layout (even if it means putting the buttons at the - gasp- bottom of the stick for players 1 and 4)

Speaking of monitor size:

I may have to keep the monitor around the 21" range but I'm lucky enough to live close enough to where they hold computer shows.  They usually sell refurbished monitors on the cheap.  I got a 17" for $50, though it just recently died.  And I'd use a TV with S-Video but I need it to play the occasional computer game also (well only YDKJ - man I'm so sick of huddling around a keyboard).

[spidermonkey]

Hey Daver, Gyruss is played with an 8-way not a spinner although I often wondered why it didn't come with a spinner or even an analog stick.  I'm suprized Paigeoliver didn't catch that. He never misses anything.

[paigeoliver]

Hey Daver, Gyruss is played with an 8-way not a spinner although I often wondered why it didn't come with a spinner or even an analog stick.  I'm suprized Paigeoliver didn't catch that. He never misses anything.

Eep? How did I miss that.

I don't think Gyruss was made as a spinner game because it would have been seen as a Tempest ripoff then, and they would have also had to ramp up the difficulty quite a bit if they did that.

Plus, none of the  Konami pinout games used anything but joysticks and buttons. What does that have to do with anything? Well most of the Konami pinout games were on the same couple of boardsets, and judging from the total lack of optical games on said platforms, I am guessing that the boardsets didn't support spinners or trackballs, and they didn't want to redesign. I have owned quite a few of those Konami/Stern/Centuri boardsets and I don't recall any of them having unused headers or anything to hook up an optical control. Scramble (Super Cobra, Lost Tomb, Tutankham, and others too) boardsets do have some sort of super duper secondary edge connector though.

[unclet]

My 4-player control panel is 56"x19" has four 8-way joysticks, one 4-way joystick, 2 spinners, ONE trackball and a lot of buttons.  Four grown men can play comfortablly with this design, but I could not imagine the size increase if I wanted a second trackball added.  The two spinners are to allow for left/right handed players to feel comfortable while playing.   I saved a little room by placing the coinUp buttons (orange buttons) on the front of the control panel (instead of on top).   Also, my 4-player coin door is wired and people really like it.

PS:  Did you factor in the use of pinball buttons on the side?

[Daver4676]

Nice cabinet.    I'm skipping the pinball flippers since video pinball never captured my excitement the way regular pinball does.  But if I do change my mind that's an easy addition.

Gyruss wasn't played with a rotation?  You must forgive me because I could have sworn up and down otherwise.  I also thought Time Pilot was played with a trackball.   My inability to get controls right is really due to not seeing this machines in person since I was 7.

I thought and thought about my conundrum and I might have to make stationary ends for a four player cabinet while still incorporating 1Up's rotational design.  If it will look awkward or silly... I'm not sure just yet?  They'll be this gap inbetween the panel which is my main concern.  Oh well, time to whip out the graph paper...

[Apollo]

Time Pilot is just 8 way joystick & 1 button fire, if you are not sure of controls go here

http://www.klov.com/index.php

[matt.e]

i can say that i have a cabinet with moust of that on it and it is big, very big. it now uses a 60" non-commercial plasma screen, thats quite big!
i have the 2 trackballs, 2 8-way jousticks for 1p and 1 for 2p, 3p and 4p, 6 buttons per player and yes, 2 spinners.
all of this fits on a control pannel of 4ft x 8ft, 32sq. ft, a control this sizeNEEDS alot of room, i could do with more!

[Apollo]

Like to post a pic of this unfeasably large machine? Or point me to a web site, I am most curious.

[Daver4676]

Yeah I looked up the control on Time Pilot, but thanks.  I've been using that site to double check controls, panel shapes and screen sizes.

That's a pretty big machine matt.  How do people reach the controls in the back on a 4 foot deep panel?  I'd do something like that but doorways are only so big in the world -- and my machine may have to leave with me at some point.  And a 60" plasma screen -- if I had the type of money to spend on that I'd just get one for the living room and continue slapping old monitors in the cab.

Or then again you can totally be joking and it went way over my head.   But if it isn't post some pics of that.

[hyiu]

sorry to jump in like this...
but I tried to use my 19" LCD to play Mame...
its just doesn't look good....

I mean... its sharp and nice and flat and everything...
but somehow... it just doesn't play right....
I'm using a 21" monitor...
(well... I'm sure an arcade mon or WG or those will be better... )
but for me, I need it to also be a computer, web-surfing, and I don't have $$ to buy another monitor......

so.. 21" is good enough for now...

you might want to try it first before putting it in...

but if the 60" tv is offered to you... always get it first... haaa haa haa....

[night]

mine : http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=9292


its 59" wide with 4P.
1 and 2P sticks are optical rotary's, 3 and 4 are plain old supers. 3" track and 1 spinner in the middle.
simple and effective. the joysticks double for games like smash TV as well as 2 spinner games.
the only thing i technically dont have is a 4 way, but IMO it isnt that big a deal. i dont play those that much, and anyone that does will just have to deal with it . its not like the games are completely unplayable without one.

[Xiaou2]

 I designed a system that creates a bit more space for 4 player setup...



  As you can see... by adding a second set of buttons lower on the panel - and almst under your left hand... it helps to keep your wrist from knocking into the opposite players left hand with your right hand.  Also,  it takes up less space, and finally reduces your overall arm/shoulder wing-span... as you can put your elbows in front of your body confortably like that.  

  The pic shows that there are 2 optical rotarys in place of the 2nd and 4th player... as that adds a nice touch for the rotary games... yet still allows you to play dual joy games like Assault, Robotron...ect.   Some may only choose one of these.. and add it to the 4th player section.   You could even go and pop a leaf joy in there as well...

  I would have tooken a pic of my panel.. but I messed up the measurements somehow... and put the buttons a little too far under the left wrist - to the point of a bit of discomfort.   About 1 inch past the right side of the joystick base should be a good spot - just give it a test and youll see.

  Ohh - and Ive also uploaded this design for those who want a solution for a wheel that can be both optical and Pot based.   It uses a d-link setup with an assembly rear that slides to link/unlink.  I havnt tried this one tho... but it should work well.

 



  http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com    

 

[jelloslug]

Did someone say Jelloslug?  I gues I 'm a bit late to chime in on but I will anyway.  I did my modular panel so I could put anything i wanted in without have a 60" cab.  Eveything swaps in quickly and is hot swapable.  The only thing I would change would be to make the CP about 3 or 4 inches wider.

[jakejake28]

i can say that i have a cabinet with moust of that on it and it is big, very big. it now uses a 60" non-commercial plasma screen, thats quite big!
i have the 2 trackballs, 2 8-way jousticks for 1p and 1 for 2p, 3p and 4p, 6 buttons per player and yes, 2 spinners.
all of this fits on a control pannel of 4ft x 8ft, 32sq. ft, a control this sizeNEEDS alot of room, i could do with more!

no way! i need pics of the gargantuan. i have 3 cabs and all combined dont take up 32 sq. ft of floor.