Attn: Vendors posting about their products and anyone concerned about it...

[saint]

In order to settle a question that comes up occasionally...

Please note that vendors with new products (or improved products) are WELCOME AND ENCOURAGED to post about it here on the main forum.  This site has always been slightly misnamed, as commercial pre-made products have always been a part of the site, albeit not as big as the build your own part.  

Vendors are also very much encouraged to take advantage of the "Submit News" link for the above types of posts as well, and will most likely see their product on the front page of the site until other news buries it.

Vendors are not welcome to spam the board, of course, but to date I have not seen anything that I consider spam.

Vendors wishing to post information about sales, discounts, price breaks, etc... that are marketing in nature but have nothing to do with a new product should please feel free to use the Buy/Sell/Trade forum, and not the main forum.  You are still welcome to use the Submit News link, though I may be a bit more selective about those items.  If in doubt, please submit it and let us decide if we consider it newsworthy

Apologies to everyone that I have taken so long to post an "official" point of view on the matter..

Thanks to everyone for sticking to the rules of being nice to each other even when you disagree - it's much appreciated!

--- saint

[Jakobud]

IMO the News page is a find place to announce new deals or products.  Perhaps a new forum would be nice, dedicated to product reviews and stuff.

[Howard_Casto]

I agree, when personal posts are wrongly put in the main fourm they are moved.  Similar product announcments/reviews are not, which doesn't seem fair.  

imho there are far too many annoucment posts, personal or otherwise in the main forum.  It's getting extremely crowded, and this junk needs to be weeded out.  It would be diferent if there wasn't an "announcments" forum, but there is, so use it people.

[Apollo]

How about a seperate section where vendors can offer new products or specials in return for a fee to be used to help maintain the forum?

[shmokes]

Judging by the amount of interest and posts in the OSCAR and Slikstik new product threads I think the main forum is the place for them to be.  The fact is, when something like a Discs of Tron reproduction spinner is introduced that's about as big a piece of news as there is for this community.  That's why it generates so much discussion.  Certainly the announcement would work in the buy/sell/trade forum, but reading the discussions in those threads I just can't see how they could be considered inappropriate in the main forum.

edit: clarity  

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, a Vendor forum is a pretty good idea.  new products could go in the newsticker too.

[Howard_Casto]

Judging by the amount of interest and posts in the OSCAR and Slikstik new product threads I think the main forum is the place for them to be.  The fact is, when something like a Discs of Tron reproduction spinner is introduced that's about as big a piece of news as there is for this community.  That's why it generates so much discussion.  Certainly the announcement would work in the buy/sell/trade forum, but reading the discussions in those threads I just can't see how they could be considered inappropriate in the main forum.

edit: clarity  

Yes and that's why they are mentioned in the news on the main page.  Where they are discussed should be elsewhere, unless it's a question regardng performance, hookup ect.  Not the often heated debate that follows a simple "it's about to be released" post made by the manufacturer.  Those should be put in an announcments section or ect.  

If you are only going to the main forum for news then you are using the site wrong.  There are several sections.  Keeping the several hundred posts a day sorted makes it easier to read what you are interested in.  Lumping it all in the "main" forum just because you feel that more people will see it is rather selfish and clutters the main forum for those who are strictly interested in arcade controls related questions/comments.  


If we were to post things by matter of importance on the main board then none of the other sections would be used.  

[OSCAR]

Yes and that's why they are mentioned in the news on the main page.  Where they are discussed should be elsewhere, unless it's a question regardng performance, hookup ect.  Not the often heated debate that follows a simple "it's about to be released" post made by the manufacturer.  Those should be put in an announcments section or ect.  

If you are only going to the main forum for news then you are using the site wrong.  There are several sections.  Keeping the several hundred posts a day sorted makes it easier to read what you are interested in.  Lumping it all in the "main" forum just because you feel that more people will see it is rather selfish and clutters the main forum for those who are strictly interested in arcade controls related questions/comments.  


If we were to post things by matter of importance on the main board then none of the other sections would be used.  

Put aside for a moment that I am one of the "offenders" in question...

The main forum has always been used for announcing new products and such.  Browse through the archives and you will see this is true...  

Until the man in charge says otherwise, debating on where they should be is moot since saint has made it very clear what is acceptable in the Main forum.

Please note that vendors with new products (or improved products) are WELCOME AND ENCOURAGED to post about it here on the main forum.  This site has always been slightly misnamed, as commercial pre-made products have always been a part of the site, albeit not as big as the build your own part.

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry kelsey, I don't play favorites.  

The problem is saint is wrong this time.  He has expressed in the past that announcment posts on the user level need to be seperated as much as possible from the main board, simply because the main board is so full.  It's unfair to treat users and vendors differently.  

Also take this excerpt into consideration:  

"Vendors wishing to post information about sales, discounts, price breaks, etc... that are marketing in nature but have nothing to do with a new product should please feel free to use the Buy/Sell/Trade forum, and not the main forum.  You are still welcome to use the Submit News link, though I may be a bit more selective about those items.  If in doubt, please submit it and let us decide if we consider it newsworthy"

The problem with this is with the exception of andy and your products, which are inarguably reasonably priced, other vendors products are almost immediately broken down by the sites visitors and the resulting debates become a big discussion about the marketing aspect of the product.  It's by no means the fault of the vendors, but these discussions ultimately distract from the original post and often become rather heated.  These potentially "flammable" threads need to be kept off of the main page imo.  The only fair way to do that is to remove all announcments off of the main board.

It's saint's site and of course I will respect how he wishes to do things, but I believe in this case, he seriously needs to re-think his view on the subject.

I honestly don't understand the concept myself.  Saint will glady post any product related news on the news page.  So why would you want to post it again when everyone has already seen it?  If you are wanting feedback (which I'm guessing you are) then what difference does it make as to which section of the message board it's in?  The news posted could include a link to the thread regarding the product for that.  That way people see it  and can talk about it, but it's out of the way.  

Why not just do like mameworld and have a "potential news" section of the message board.  Add an optional thread link to the submit news button and poof instant link to a feedback section.  


I happen to agree with saint about vendors and their products being an important part of the site, but allowing more and more slighty ot posts on the main board is adding the the already staggering problem of the main board being too crowded.  As an example, you can make a post on the main forum in the morning and if no one has responded by evening, it has been bumped off of the front page.  

Simpy put, the site is too dang popular for it's own good.  I would like to see people's questions answered and it's hard to do when the topics allowed in the main forum are so general that dozens upon dozens of posts are made in an average day.  

So in short, this isn't my way of picking on vendors, but rather trying to get the main forum thinned down a tad so that it's readable again.  As I said in my earlier comments, everything I've said can and should be applied to the average user too.  

Ok I'm done

[OSCAR]

S'okay,  Howie, I don't play favorites either...  


Personally, I couldn't care less where vendor posts go.  However, since saint has specifically requested that they go into the Main forum, well....

[Zakk]

Sorry Howard, I have to disagree.  I think the new products should be in this forum.  Post it on the news page, and it's going to end up discussed in here anyways, so why make interesting tidbits harder to find?  I would say that if this was a Do it Yourself Mame Compile webpage, then new products would definitely be out of place in the main section. However, this site is for arcade controls, I mean, I don't come in here to find out that someone has finally figured out how to install t-molding (although everyone should figure out how, it really does finish the look of a cabinet project -ed), I',m here to see what's new in the world of arcade controls.  

Just my $.02  Besides, the cool slander fights that break out after some of the announcements are helluvalotta fun to read!  

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry Howard, I have to disagree.  I think the new products should be in this forum.  Post it on the news page, and it's going to end up discussed in here anyways, so why make interesting tidbits harder to find?  

1.  They wouldn't be harder to find as the thread would be linked with the news.  

2.  Like any other mis-placed post, those wishing to bring up the wrong type of topic on the main forum would have their topics forceibly removed from the main forum and into the appropriate one.  

In the beginning, no one wanted to use the software forum for software related posts.  After about a month of moving posts people caught on.  

[SirPeale]

I suppose if you read the news page, this would be great.  I haven't checked out the news page in quite a while.  I usually just come right here.

[Howard_Casto]

I suppose if you read the news page, this would be great.  I haven't checked out the news page in quite a while.  I usually just come right here.

Now I can certianly understand that, but if you look at the marquee on the first page of the forum, it links back to the news page.    A person would just have to get in the habit of visiting it more often.  

[AlanS17]

I always enter the site through the main page and see the news announcements. From there I make my way to the forums. This is what I think, though...

If you had a forum just for new products it would have about 10 posts in it. After all, how often does new stuff come out? Maybe a couple times a month. Some threeads just get longer and longer, but are they really all over the place? There may be tons of posts on the subject, but they're usually all confined to a few threads.

I think there are better candidates for forums than just new products. I think cab building questions (from a tools/materials stanbdpoint) would be a better idea. So would a PC hardware section to compliment the PC software section. I feel that a "new products" forum would be a waste of space. I also feel that such announcements are so important that they belong up front and center.

[Frostillicus]

Anything to lessen the load on the main forum would get my vote.  I actually enjoy 'making the rounds' clicking on each forum in turn checking out the latest in that specific area.  

I have that natural instinct that everything must be categorized and organized...like consoles, product announcements, PC hardware, woodworking, etc.

Look at the board discussion site - I had no idea that a forum about the forum would actually have posts (tho it is rather slow).  It still has important stuff from time to time...
 

[Howard_Casto]

I always enter the site through the main page and see the news announcements. From there I make my way to the forums. This is what I think, though...

If you had a forum just for new products it would have about 10 posts in it. After all, how often does new stuff come out? Maybe a couple times a month. Some threeads just get longer and longer, but are they really all over the place? There may be tons of posts on the subject, but they're usually all confined to a few threads.

I think there are better candidates for forums than just new products. I think cab building questions (from a tools/materials stanbdpoint) would be a better idea. So would a PC hardware section to compliment the PC software section. I feel that a "new products" forum would be a waste of space. I also feel that such announcements are so important that they belong up front and center.

I can agree with that to a point, but 10 posts is still 10 less posts cluttering up the main forum. Besides, most people don't conisder the main forum "up front and center" that's the news page on the website.  

I also agree with frosty.  I just think we need many more categories.  A forum with only 10 posts in it is a GOOD thing.  That means that everything pertaining to that particular subject is on one page and newbies and veterans alike can quickly find what they are looking for.  It also means that a person wiht a more obscure question is more likely to get help, as their unanswered questions will stay on the first page of that forum longer.  This in turn means less repeat questions on the main forum, which means even less clutter.  

See what I'm getting at now?  

[Jakobud]

You know....this whole topic boils down to one problem that has been discussed many times before but nothing has ever really been done about it:

You should drop the 'Main' forum and create 4 or 5 other topic specific forums...

In my opinion, we shouldnt even have a 'Main forum'.  It's too easy for just all sorts of random crap to get stuck in there.  People are just too dumb or lazy or ignorant to realize that there is a place for pretty much everything when posting...so they end up posting things in the main forum instead of where it needs to go.  In the case of vendor sales/deals posts...I believe that there is a time and place for that...a forum specific to that would be nice.  I dont want to diss the vendors at all.  They release really REALLY awesome products and this community would NOT be where it is if it wasnt for them.

I believe that saint could add less than 5 more forums and drop the "Main" forum and there would be enough forums for every single topic that comes up.  It would keep things very organized and easy to find what you want.  I have been apart of this board since sometime in mid 2001 (back before we had the fancy YaBB board) and the past few months I have found myself visiting the boards less and less simply because its too difficult to find what I want...there are too many random posts that are on a huge variety of topics, just as Howard was saying.  I love to get on here and learn things and try to help others but its gotten to the point where its just too difficult to wade thru the posts to find what I want.  I am willing to bet that this is the case with a lot of people on here.  A lot of the reason for so many posts is because this board is getting very popular, which is awesome!  This community and hobby is growing a lot this year and I super pumped about that!  I just hope that saint can realize that maybe the board needs to grow and evolve a bit too in-order to accomodate it all...

Bottom line:

IMO the 'Main' forum is the source of the entire problem.

[shmokes]

I bet it just burns your behind that this discussion isn't going on in the Board Discussion forum

[Smittydc]

I think it's fine just the way it is.  

Quit your bitching.

[RandyT]

I think it's fine just the way it is.  

Quit your bitching.

Agreed.

Speaking not as a vendor, but as a visitor and contributor to these discussions over the last few years, I say: "It's Saint's house.  If you don't like the way he arranges his furniture, don't come to visit."

Could the site use a few more categories?  Probably.  But then again, I never really had a problem with the old setup (other than the ocassional database corruption and loss of messages   )

If we really want to take a totalitarian stance about where and what people post, you could say that no-one really needs to ask questions at all, because the answers are probably already in the database somewhere.  If someone can write up a 20 page manual with just about everything you need to know to build your machine from scratch, how many thousands of posts  are really needed to cover the same or similar information?

But there is something more at play here that could possibly be affected by further separation of subjects and the removal of the "Main" forum.  There is a sense of community here that seems to be either absent or less perceptible on other forums.  I believe this is due to the often wide range of subjects that get covered in the "Main" forum, which elicits so many diverse responses from active participants.

Rather than have individuals, who happen to be skilled in a specialized area, be relegated to obscurity in a seldom used corner of the system, there is much greater possibility for interaction when the comments of those individuals are viewed  by the greater majority of the users.

It's through this that you can sort of "get to know" people and therefore foster a certain amount of trust and sense of community.

Dumping the "Main" forum would be akin to removing the lobby from your apartment building, making knowing who you are sharing the building with quite a bit more difficult.  And while this might seem beneficial to some, the effect of a change like that to these forums probably shouldn't be underestimated.

RandyT

[Hoagie_one]

I think it's fine just the way it is.  

Quit your bitching.

Agreed.

Speaking not as a vendor, but as a visitor and contributor to these discussions over the last few years, I say: "It's Saint's house.  If you don't like the way he arranges his furniture, don't come to visit."

Could the site use a few more categories?  Probably.  But then again, I never really had a problem with the old setup (other than the ocassional database corruption and loss of messages   )

If we really want to take a totalitarian stance about where and what people post, you could say that no-one really needs to ask questions at all, because the answers are probably already in the database somewhere.  If someone can write up a 20 page manual with just about everything you need to know to build your machine from scratch, how many thousands of posts  are really needed to cover the same or similar information?

But there is something more at play here that could possibly be affected by further separation of subjects and the removal of the "Main" forum.  There is a sense of community here that seems to be either absent or less perceptible on other forums.  I believe this is due to the often wide range of subjects that get covered in the "Main" forum, which elicits so many diverse responses from active participants.

Rather than have individuals, who happen to be skilled in a specialized area, be relegated to obscurity in a seldom used corner of the system, there is much greater possibility for interaction when the comments of those individuals are viewed  by the greater majority of the users.

It's through this that you can sort of "get to know" people and therefore foster a certain amount of trust and sense of community.

Dumping the "Main" forum would be akin to removing the lobby from your apartment building, making knowing who you are sharing the building with quite a bit more difficult.  And while this might seem beneficial to some, the effect of a change like that to these forums probably shouldn't be underestimated.

RandyT

WORD UP

[Odonadon]

I also agree with frosty.  I just think we need many more categories.  A forum with only 10 posts in it is a GOOD thing.  That means that everything pertaining to that particular subject is on one page and newbies and veterans alike can quickly find what they are looking for.  It also means that a person wiht a more obscure question is more likely to get help, as their unanswered questions will stay on the first page of that forum longer.  This in turn means less repeat questions on the main forum, which means even less clutter.  

The problem with that is the less posts a forum has, the less likely it is to be visited.  It will eventually get slower and slower until nobody comes at all.  I've seen that many times on other boards, though I doubt it'll get that bad here.  But I bet it will get noticably slower.

Odonadon