POLL: "All-In-One" Joystick

[ubiquityman]

If you could purchase an "all-in-one" joystick, would you prefer that or would you prefer to have, for example, the spinner separate?
Would one of the features listed below be something you really don't care to have in a joystick?
I've assigned a $ amount to each feature to add a bit of a reference, otherwise, if others are like me, I'd probably just say "yes, I'd like to have it all!"

The base analog joystick would I'm guessing would be about $50, but the options are incremental.
All these options are intended to reside on the joystick.

1. Analog output via USB,

2. Digital I/O, Mostly intended for button input, but the joystick would also act as a keyboard controller. (+$15)
This would be approximately 20 pins.

3. Rotation (+$15, with mechanical indents) (eg. for Ikari Warriors)
The mechanical indent would be similar to the "clicks" on the scroll wheel on a mouse.

4. Spinner function (+$25) (~60-120 pulses per revolution, adequate for MAME)
The top of the joystick would be the spinner knob, whether it's a ball or a bat-top.
The spinner would be medium-low in resolution.  The resolution would be matched to MAME's default settings.
How do people feel about having a bearing at the base of the joystick shaft (thus having very low rotational resistance?)
What if there was a simple mechanical way to "lock" the rotation so that it was user selectable?

5. Top button fire. (+$10).

[Ginsu Victim]

I voted spinner. That just seems really odd.

[mimic]

I voted spinner as well. Could you provide an example of a game that uses such setup (spinner)? And where do those values come from? Are they actual estimates or fantasy?

[ubiquityman]

The idea on the spinner is that it would save the real estate required to mount another controller.
The entire joystick would be a spinner.  (or the spinner would also act as a joystick.  depends if you're a glass 1/2 full or glass 1/2 empty type of person.)
If a joystick is going to be able to do rotation (eg. for Ikari warriors), then increasing the resolution to have spinner functionality isn't too much additional cost for the electronics (although the mechanical parts would cost a bit).
However, the concern is with the feel of a joystick.  In order to be able to get smooth spinner functionality, that would change the joystick feel.

I tend to agree with most of you though, the spinner is likely the feature to leave out.

The prices are estimates rather than fantasy, but until I'm able to get one working, it's a pipe dream.

[Space Fractal]

I mean I have seen a old Atari joystick that tried it for long decades ago. Not sure which one it was?

Most joystick when installed can also rotate, even mightbeen 100% very good. So the spinner technology could detected under the joystick's base, when the user spin the joystick,hence it can have been some use.

Could been great to see that example in U360 or such all in one joystick.

Of course the resolution might been lower than a real spinner, but still playable in many/most games.

Due above I propenty would vote Top Button Fire, but I do can't vote.

[CheffoJeffo]

Having a spinner in a rotating stick    just seems like it would be unpossible to distinguish between rotating and spinning ... if you get my meaning.

EDIT: I didn't get to vote either, but my choice would have been "I am old school -- give me the stick that works best for the game I am playing". Coincidentally, for many of the games that I am playing, that is a Wico leaf.

[milkit]

those little jakks pacman games that also have pole position have a "joy stick spinner" if I remember right. The pole position game is controlled by spinning the pacman joy

[ubiquityman]

Thanks for the responses folks.  I'm not sure why the poll got locked; that was not intentional.  It's open again, so feel free to throw in your thoughts if you'd like.

[Havok]

I voted spinner, but there really is no such thing as an all in one joy; you always sacrifice something. Best thing to do is to figure out which games you enjoy the most and tailor your purchases accordingly, weighing the pros and cons and tradeoffs...

[Space Fractal]

That I was mean is the design should been completely a joystick with absolute no sign of a spinner (elsewise it could look odd). Its should still feel like a real arcade joystick.

It just matter add the technology bottom of it. So its could been completing hidden, but still checking for rotation since most joystick actually do can rotate itself anyway. Course it cannot replace a real spinner at all, but could been nice use in some machines with little place.

The install method can do been speciel, since the device should been added to the bottom of the joystick its self which do can been a problem.

[ubiquityman]

That I was mean is the design should been completely a joystick with absolute no sign of a spinner (elsewise it could look odd). Its should still feel like a real arcade joystick.

Imagine the spinner looking exactly the same as a sanwa or happ joystick from the base up.
Those current joysticks do spin, but they don't spin freely.
In order to make the joystick a spinner, the joystick would have to spin freely. 
It doesn't have to look any different though.

[CheffoJeffo]

OK, maybe I am totally missing it ... how can you have the turning joystick serve as a spinner and a rotating stick ?

SF: Have you tried one of Happ's optical rotaries to get your spinner fix ?

Or am I just missing something ?

[drventure]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on one of the posts, he mentions that "if you're already making a rotating stick, it's just a little electronics change to up the resolution to that of a spinner to get spinner functionality as well",

So it sounds like the stick would essentially just be a rotation stick with a little higher resolution?

Sounds cool to me. If I was after such a stick, I'd want it all. I still wish I had a way to play warlords with 4 real spinners, but putting for spinners on a cab just for, basically, that one game seems like a bit of overkill (and that's saying a lot considering my CP  ).

I just wonder what a spinning joystick handle would feel like. definitely different from an actually spinner, but different "bad" or different "acceptable if not perfect"? Probably just have to try it to see.

I'm guessing it'd be kind of like playing spinner games with a trackball, doable, but not quite right. hmm. actually it'd like be better than that.

But now i'm just rambling.....

[CheffoJeffo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on one of the posts, he mentions that "if you're already making a rotating stick, it's just a little electronics change to up the resolution to that of a spinner to get spinner functionality as well",

So it sounds like the stick would essentially just be a rotation stick with a little higher resolution?

Except that the whole "rotation with mechanical indents" pretty much kills any possibility of using the same mechanism as a spinner.

[ubiquityman]

OK, maybe I am totally missing it ... how can you have the turning joystick serve as a spinner and a rotating stick ?

Like several folks have already indicated, most joysticks today already spin.  There's just a lot of friction in that spin so the joystick doesn't spin freely.  Add a bearing to where the joystick meets the base can allow the joystick to spin a lot more freely.

I just wonder what a spinning joystick handle would feel like. definitely different from an actually spinner, but different "bad" or different "acceptable if not perfect"? Probably just have to try it to see.

That's the main issue I'm not sure of.  It's not difficult to make the entire stick spin freely, but the "feel" is going to be different.  
I think people don't realize it, but if the joystick spun almost frictionless, it would feel quite different.

Except that the whole "rotation with mechanical indents" pretty much kills any possibility of using the same mechanism as a spinner.

Not in all cases.  My beef with the spinners that I've tried is that there are no indents.  They spin a bit too freely.  
For games like Super Sprint, the free spinning controls are OK.  
But for games like Tempest and Arkanoid, I think just a little bit of friction would make the controls more ergonomic, IMHO.
It's impossible to get one spinner to feel right for every game, and I can't argue with "it won't be the same as the original", but I think it's a modification that would make playability better.
And I'm not talking about a lot of friction like a scroll wheel.  Think of it more as "wheel of fortune" in terms of how quickly the wheel might slow down.  The spinner functionality would be easily modifiable from zero indent to heavy indent, depending on personal preference. 
For example for Ikari Warriors, the intent would need to be "heavy", like a mouse scroll wheel.

[ark_ader]

Spinner joystick would be a bonus, Ikari type games would be accomodated as would tempest (don't know about star trek or DOT/Tron) as would warlords.  You could have a push down mechanism that would unlock the joy to spin or tighten-loosen for free or restricted spinning.  Saying that why not just have a pot at the end like Jakks.

I voted for the top fire, but a recessed top fire that was not accidentally pressed would be a good idea. Also it has to be USB with provision for 12 buttons and an extra 8 way.

[drventure]

Put an electromagnet assembly in there to give it a completely customizable haptic response curve (imagine a force feedback spinner knob).

Oops, probably just doubled the price though  

+1 on the USB device. I wouldn't want anything that wasn't a USB, HID compatible device.

[CheffoJeffo]

All of this is very interesting and, since I'm not seeing a lot of comments from people who have a lot of experience with controls, I'll continue to play devil's advocate -- I love the creativity, but am not seeing anything to get excited about as yet.

Both variable resistance spinners and sticks with optical rotation (that could be used as a spinner as people have suggested) have been available for quite a while. I am not seeing anything particularly new here (other than the variable "clickiness", which poses several practical problems and I would LOVE to see how that would work because it could be rather cool) and wonder how combining those two would amount to an improvement over what already exists. I have to wonder about patents on the existing equipment and how they would come into play, if at all.

Add to that the inevitable discussion about spinner resolution ... how hard is it for dedicated spinners to get things right for a wide variety of games ? I know that we now have spinners that seem to handle Arkanoid, but it seems to me to be a really bad example to use for where gameplay would be improved by a lower resolution spinner.

We've already seen rotation added to a digitally-restricted stick and, while I think it is a totally cool idea (and something I would use if I was unfortunate enough to be limited to a single CP on a single cab), I don't see people raving about them.

So, tell me why this device would be so cool ... actually I can already see that it would be cool ... tell me what would make it marketable and special.

[Space Fractal]

Yep its a spinning arcade (not a flight) joystick handle I meant. Its of course far from perfect for a real spinner, but perfectly in some cases and I would propenty use that as a second joystick.

If that handle could work, rotating is really not required and I think spinner/joystick compo could been used for Ikari at all (not really checked that in mame, but known about it)? Its might fell a little abit wrong, but hence its a "all-in-one" joystick. hence why would been awesome to see a joystick with extract that compo (but would not mind if its digital or analog).

Nope, Happ dont sent private to Denmark and EU. Its just a idea how the handle could been used.

[drventure]

@Cheffo

Yeah, I'm only speaking out of what seems like an interesting idea to me. I DEFINITELY don't have as much exp with +actual+ controls as you and many of the other guys here have, so I'll happy defer to that experience. Take my thoughts on such things with many grains of salt!

Besides, shoehorning the electromechanicals that would be required into a joystick shaft might be a little tough on the engineering side anyway. I'm more a software guy than a hardware guy 

[ubiquityman]

Both variable resistance spinners and sticks with optical rotation (that could be used as a spinner as people have suggested) have been available for quite a while. I am not seeing anything particularly new here (other than the variable "clickiness", which poses several practical problems and I would LOVE to see how that would work because it could be rather cool) and wonder how combining those two would amount to an improvement over what already exists. I have to wonder about patents on the existing equipment and how they would come into play, if at all.

I'm somewhat familiar with the patent process.  I have some that I've previously filed and have had one previously granted, but none for joysticks, so this is somewhat new territory for me.
I have been searching existing patents to make sure there is no prior art on my concept.  So far, it looks clear.  I did find a lot of interesting ideas though.

Add to that the inevitable discussion about spinner resolution ... how hard is it for dedicated spinners to get things right for a wide variety of games ? I know that we now have spinners that seem to handle Arkanoid, but it seems to me to be a really bad example to use for where gameplay would be improved by a lower resolution spinner.

A software programmable resolution or scaler would be the best approach IMHO. 

We've already seen rotation added to a digitally-restricted stick and, while I think it is a totally cool idea (and something I would use if I was unfortunate enough to be limited to a single CP on a single cab), I don't see people raving about them.

For me, if there was a good analog stick with rotation already available, I probably would have used that, but I am not aware of one that exists.   The idea for an "all-in-one" was borne out of my desire to have such a product.

So, tell me why this device would be so cool ... actually I can already see that it would be cool ... tell me what would make it marketable and special.

The selling point is getting as much coverage of MAME games as possible.  Maximum compatibility!
- Analog is convenient due to MAME's automatic mapping
- Analog is "required" for some games out there.
- Rotation is required for some games.

The spinner functionality and the ergonomics impact with push-down trigger is what I'm not sure of. 
Why would people want this?  Well, it saves real-estate.  The spinner itself doesn't take up much real-estate, but the area below the spinner required for a palm/hand rest does take up quite a bit of space.  If the CP real-estate was big enough, I believe that having a separate spinner is going to be better for spinner games.  The question for me is whether the compromise have having spinner with joystick will make a good enough joystick (and good enough spinner).  I consider spinner [free spin] and rotation [coarse resolution with indents] two different functions.  Having one doesn't necessarily meet the requirements of the other.

[mimic]

ubiquityman are you planning on building something completly new from scratch or is it going to be based on ultimarks' U360?

[CheffoJeffo]

At this point, I'm going to stop playing devil's advocate and just wish you the best on this.

Every product I mentioned does exist and has been available for years (in very obvious places). The lengthy discussions about spinner resolution are required reading. Whether you can find a way to do it better remains to be seen and I look forward to your efforts.

 

[ubiquityman]

ubiquityman are you planning on building something completly new from scratch or is it going to be based on ultimarks' U360?

I have no affiliation with Ultimarc, but I do think Andy currently has one of the best joystick products that I've seen for MAME.
I did come across a patent (#5160918) that appears to have some similarities to his U360, but has rotation.  This patent is expired so anyone can use this concept in the US with having to obtain permission or pay royalties.

Keep in mind that "Patents" don't always work.  Anyone can patent an idea or concept.  It's another thing to make it work.  So I can't say for sure if that patent was useful or not.

What I have in mind is not going to be based on that and I think in the end, it will be quite different in sensing mechanism.