printing a marquee

[deano7]

I have a small marquee 17"X9" that I made for my jukebox and I need to take it to a printer.  What is the best type of material to print to so that light will go through it enough to simulate a marquee on an arcade game?  I was able to print control panel artwork and it came out great, but I would think I need to print to a different more translucent material?   Thanks!

 

[ubiquityman]

Search for "Backlit Film".

I had mine printed here:
http://www.bannersinvinyl.com/fucobafipr2.html
It came out OK, but isn't very high in resolution.

[deano7]

Thanks!

[Ginsu Victim]

Don't pay that much for low res!

Click the link in my signature!

[deano7]

Thanks for the link Ginsu.  I assume this is your company?  I just places an order.  Let me know if you think the artwork is too dark for a marquee and I'll try and lighten it up.  I'll send the file later today. 
Dean

[Ginsu Victim]

It's not mine. I just advertise for him. I've received a few marquees and CPOs from emdkay and they have been excellent.

[deano7]

Well in any event, thanks for the referral!

[D_Harris]

Will the artwork be UV resistant?(I'm worried about fading).

I assume this is inkjet. (Which I have no problem with).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ubiquityman]

Don't pay that much for low res!

Thanks for the info, I might use them next time, but they are a lot more expensive.
It doesn't say the resolution though, so no guarantee that's it's higher in res.
The print ends up being $20 for film + $5 ship. = $25/ea

Regarding the other link I posted above, the ones I got printed were ~720 dpi.
If you are 2 ft away, you can tell it's not that high in resolution, but a few feet back, and it's not noticeable.  The website states a minimum $40, but I was under the minimum and was not charged extra.
In the end, I got 3 marquees for $10/ea and the entire order was shipped free  because I had the control panel artwork printed there as well.

[emdkay]

Will the artwork be UV resistant?(I'm worried about fading).

I assume this is inkjet. (Which I have no problem with).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Hey Darren,

We do use professional inkjet printers.  As far as fading, from our FAQ:

Q: How long should I expect my marquee to resist fading?
A: Under normal circumstances, out of direct sunlight and under lexan protection, EMDKAY marquees are printing on special material with archival ink that should resist fading for up to 95 years. Higher intensity indirect daylight can reduce fade resistance to 15-25 years.

[emdkay]

Also, we recommend that your images be at least 300dpi, but can print up to 720dpi. 

Speaking of which, do you have that artwork, deano7?  I didn't see it uploaded yet. 

[deano7]

I haven't uploaded it yet - I don't have the artwork someone else made it for me. 

Is 720 DPI too low of resolution?  I am concerned that the last guy said it didn't look good up close.  It is a jukebox and people will be standing right up to it with the marquee literally 1 foot in front of their eyes.  I am sending it in a high resolution and the marquee is only going to be 9"X 20".  What do you think?

[Ginsu Victim]

Dude, his marquees look great up close. Don't listen to that one guy. Listen to me instead.

[DeLuSioNal29]

+ 1 on EmdKay.

I've supplied him with 300dpi artwork and it prints beautifully!  The gradients on my marquee are flawless.  (see attached pic).

DeLuSioNaL29

[deano7]

phew, that does look good.  

Emdkay, the artwork will either arrive tonight or on Saturday.  I am at the mercy of someone else sending the file, but I will be sure to send you an email when it is uploaded.  

Can you guys give me some advice?  Here is the artwork I've had created  (along with a pic of the juke), but the background is rather dark.  Will enough light get through to make it look good as a marquee or should I try and lighten it up a bit before I print?  Attached is a pic of the juke I built and a low res version of the artwork that I have.  

Hopefully, I'll get the high res uploaded to you soon!  BTW, where are you located Emdkay?  I am in Southern Cal, what is the tyipical timing for production and shipping?  I am having some people over 3-6-10 and wonder whether I need to apply pressure to my designer to get it to you today or if Saturday would leave enough time.  Thanks guys, I am excited to put the finishing touches on my first build!

[DeLuSioNal29]

I think it should be fine as is.

[Ginsu Victim]

BTW, where are you located Emdkay?

Upper Montclair, NJ

[ubiquityman]

Is 720 DPI too low of resolution?  I am concerned that the last guy said it didn't look good up close.  It is a jukebox and people will be standing right up to it with the marquee literally 1 foot in front of their eyes.  I am sending it in a high resolution and the marquee is only going to be 9"X 20".  What do you think?

I can take a picture of my marquee from 1 ft back and I'm sure it'll show that the marquee "looks great"...
My point is that there's no way you can tell, at the resolution that Ginsu posted at, whether the resolution is sufficient for your needs.
Unless the image is a close up macro shot, there isn't enough magnification to tell.

720 DPI is not a terrible resolution. ( Maybe I made it sound worse than it really is. )
720 DPI might be low resolution for an inkjet considering many now advertise up to 4800dpi.
It doesn't mean that it's not sufficient to produce a reasonable print.
Depending on the half-toning algorithm, 720 DPI inkjet is ~65-85 lpi. 
It's possible to go higher in lpi, by trading off resolution for gradient levels.

When I get home tonight, I'll post a picture of the printout for my bezel info (which is the same print job as the marquee).  I should be able to get a macro shot with a ruler for reference, and you can decide if 720DPI is sufficient for you needs.  My guess is that for most marquees, it's not an issue, but only you really know for your own application.  I'll try to provide the info, you can decide for yourself.

[Firebat138]

I think you mean 72 dpi?  Correct...  720 dpi at marquee size would be a marquee at 6480 x 18000.  Most printers you wont see a difference over 200dpi.  I printed all my sideart, marquee and bezel here at work (see sig for pics )on a Hp DesignJet 5000 42" Plotter.  I created the files at 300 dpi, but the side file size was getting a little big... about 9000 x 18000, which is HUGE.... so I reduced it to 200...  I also plotted it out at 150 and you cant see a difference...    Good luck..

Camper

[ubiquityman]

I think you mean 72 dpi?  Correct...  720 dpi at marquee size would be a marquee at 6480 x 18000.  Most printers you wont see a difference over 200dpi.  

Actually, I do mean 720dpi, but I'm referring to the printer resolution.

I believe the printer is ~720dpi.  This is an educated guess based on what I see in the output, as I don't know the actual printer that was used.
( I can tell you it was an industrial sized printer as I also had a 5ft x 4ft vinyl print made. )
A 720dpi color inket prints around 65-85lpi.  
Applying Nyquist theory of 2x the highest frequency, this gets a recommended 170dpi for the artwork.
For DTP, a 1.5x ratio is also commonly used which would be 130dpi.

In my case, I supplied vector art, but if it was raster, I'd have the source at least 130dpi, preferably 170dpi for this particular printer.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I think you mean 72 dpi?  Correct...  720 dpi at marquee size would be a marquee at 6480 x 18000.  Most printers you wont see a difference over 200dpi.  I printed all my sideart, marquee and bezel here at work (see sig for pics )on a Hp DesignJet 5000 42" Plotter.  I created the files at 300 dpi, but the side file size was getting a little big... about 9000 x 18000, which is HUGE.... so I reduced it to 200...  I also plotted it out at 150 and you cant see a difference...    Good luck..

Camper

+1.  Mine were at 300dpi and they were HUGE.

[ubiquityman]

This is not a terribly good photo, but I think it conveys the information.
On a typical 20" monitor, displaying at 1:1, it will end up being about 6x linear magnification.
Note the physical printout is quite small so you are seeing a very zoomed in image.

FYI, the backlit film in this picture is intended to be mounted in the Bezel space and LEDs will indicate which buttons are used with each game.  

The purpose of the picture is that I'm trying to show the resolution capability of the print service that does these backlit marquees.
I measured the LPI and it works out to be about 65lpi.  
At this resolution the gradients are smooth.

The bottom line:
A discerning eye can see the jaggies, but barely if viewed at 12 inches. (I consider myself to have a discerning eye.)
At 18 inches from the eye, the perceived resolution/frequency increases such that I cannot see the jaggies any more.

Since you don't have the printout, I can simulate the effect for you.  
Based on my calculations, if you have a 20" monitor and you put the picture below onto your monitor at 1:1, and then stand about 5.5ft back, that's close to what I'm seeing at 12in away from the paper.
Then if you stand back about 8ft 10in, and look, that's close to what I'm seeing at 18in.

My day-to-day printer at home is a near photo quality 1200x1200 DPI color Postscript laser, so my frame of reference may have skewed my initial comments, but
65 LPI (720 DPI) is really quite acceptable, and IMHO, certainly adequate for a marquee... it's just at lot more jagged than my 1200DPI laser

Trivia: As we move back away from an image, the apparent image frequency (this is sort of like image resolution) increases.
The frequency can get so high that it's beyond what our eyes can see.
For example, a series of very thin white and black lines will look grey (instead of separately being black and white) if viewed from far enough back.

Similarly, jaggies are no longer visible because of this increase in frequency (or increase in perceived resolution)

This examples better demonstrates human perception of resolution:
http://www.interestingillusions.com/en/top-rated/oliva-angry-calm/
In this link, you have to get about 8ft back from the screen to see the effect.

Also note that it'd be much more difficult to see jaggies in a smooth gradient image such as a photo.  (For example, look at the gradients inside the drawn buttons.  The jaggies are not apparent.)  
The triangles around the joystick are near the "worst case situation" for jaggies because of the abrupt color change (high frequency) occurring there.

The marquees I have would be better representations but unfortunately I don't have them with me because they are at my friend's place as he is assembling the cabinets.

[Ginsu Victim]

I've got a reproduction Galaga marquee and a Neo Geo marquee, both from Emdkay, in front of me. They were made using vector graphics and I can hold them up close to my face and there is ZERO jagginess. Sorry, I don't have a camera that takes good up-close photos, and my scanner isn't set up.

These look great, though.

[bpark42]

Just a point of clarification for everybody.  A lot of people misunderstand and misuse the term dpi.  dpi really should only be used to refer to the print resolution, the dots printed per inch, which has nothing to do with the actual pixel resolution of the image.  The image itself is really specifying ppi, or pixels per inch.  (A lot of the confusion over this comes from old software and standards actually calling this dpi instead of ppi.)  ppi is a way of telling reading applications what the intended physical size of the image should be, generally when printed.

That is all.  Carry on...

[deano7]

I'll post a high res picture of my marquee when it arrives.  I am looking forward to it after all of the debate...

[ubiquityman]

I'll post a high res picture of my marquee when it arrives.  I am looking forward to it after all of the debate...

"a picture paints a thousand words"
I'd be interested in seeing it.  If you scan it between 300-400 DPI, that should be equivalent to what I've posted in terms of magnification.
The comparisons will be useful for other folks making decisions to understand what they get at different price points.

[ubiquityman]

I've got a reproduction Galaga marquee and a Neo Geo marquee, both from Emdkay, in front of me. They were made using vector graphics and I can hold them up close to my face and there is ZERO jagginess. Sorry, I don't have a camera that takes good up-close photos, and my scanner isn't set up.
These look great, though.

I'm curious, do you get a commission or special from Emdkay for your advertising?

[Ginsu Victim]

I've got a reproduction Galaga marquee and a Neo Geo marquee, both from Emdkay, in front of me. They were made using vector graphics and I can hold them up close to my face and there is ZERO jagginess. Sorry, I don't have a camera that takes good up-close photos, and my scanner isn't set up.
These look great, though.

I'm curious, do you get a commission or special from Emdkay for your advertising?

Only as of yesterday. Anyone around here can tell you that before that, I had an advertisement in my signature for him for almost two years already. I liked his work and his customer service, so I voluntarily advertised for him (I did it for Ultimarc, as well, until I reviewed a product of theirs and thought it would show a bias to have an ad in the review thread. The review was not favorable, by the way.)

I don't really care if anyone buys through my affiliate link or not. It's just there in case.

All I know is I like his stuff, many others enjoy his work, so I make sure people are aware of him.

[ubiquityman]

I liked his work and his customer service, so I voluntarily advertised for him.
I don't really care if anyone buys through my affiliate link or not. It's just there in case.
All I know is I like his stuff, many others enjoy his work, so I make sure people are aware of him.

Fair enough.  
Affiliate credits are not a bad thing if you believe in a product and can give objective comments.

I was originally a bit taken back by your comments of "there is ZERO jaggies", as I know, regardless of the device there are jaggies.
The question is not whether they exist, but whether the person is discriminating enough to see them.
For example, pick up any magazine that you might have around.  Jaggies should be visible about 6in from the eye.
Most people don't view magazines 6in from the eye, so this is not a problem.

In my past life, I've worked in markets that have a lot of Payola which has made me scrutinize non-arms-length comments.  By the sounds of it, Emdkay does have a good product, but I still don't know (and would like to know) how much better the output is at 2x the cost.  I'm guessing that because he specializes in Marquees, he could potentially make print adjustments to optimize for the job (eg. diffusion/half-tone method, DPI vs LPI, etc.)   For example, some people will print with diffusion dithering which gives a higher LPI, but I prefer proper half-toning because I think it's more pleasing to the eye even though it's lower LPI.  Practically though, 12-18in back, no one will notice the difference.

Also, if Emdkay could print larger (48" wide) control panel art, and self-adhesive vinyl (side art), that would be very helpful in being a one-stop shop for artwork.

For the record, other than being a customer, I have no affiliations with any of these products.

[ubiquityman]

Just a point of clarification for everybody.  A lot of people misunderstand and misuse the term dpi.  dpi really should only be used to refer to the print resolution, the dots printed per inch, which has nothing to do with the actual pixel resolution of the image.  The image itself is really specifying ppi, or pixels per inch.  (A lot of the confusion over this comes from old software and standards actually calling this dpi instead of ppi.)  ppi is a way of telling reading applications what the intended physical size of the image should be, generally when printed.

That is all.  Carry on...

Duly noted.

My terminology as follows:

I use LPI to describe the resolution on the printed page.  I believe you are referring to this as PPI?
http://www.designertoday.com/Articles/1371/LPI.vs.DPI.Line.Per.Inch.vs.Dot.Per.Inch.aspx
I sometimes refer to LPI as the half-tone resolution.

I use DPI to indicate the binary 1-pixel resolution of the printer device.  (eg. 4800DPI =~ 150-200LPI)
I also use DPI to indicate the resolution of the image.  (eg. scan at 300 DPI)

[Ginsu Victim]

Also, if Emdkay could print larger (48" wide) control panel art, and self-adhesive vinyl (side art), that would be very helpful in being a one-stop shop for artwork.

He's not trying to run a full-time business with this (to my knowledge, it's a one-man show). It's mostly a side project for helping the community. He does it well, but for the type of work you're talking about, there is http://www.mamemarquees.com (they also do excellent work).

[Firebat138]

I know dpi and ppi and lpi confuses people, but the term most widely used is dpi, so if anyone is confused...  Photoshop tells you the dpi, which technically is incorrect, but they haven't changed it so this is why most people say dpi.

Just use this rule of thumb...  If your PRINT wants to be 24x36 ( poster size) just times that by 150  = 3600*5400 which is the image resolution.  This should be the biggest you will ever need anything for printing... at least these grafx anyways...  print like newspaper and the such should be done at 300 and billboards...  well...  50 dpi...  I once had a contractor request a rendering for a 35' billboard at 4800 dpi.  :-)  Which would be an image of about 2 million pixels in length...  My computer is still processing.  :-)

Sidenote...  I had my CPO printed by Scott and it was a spectacular job...  I would expect nothing less from Emdkay as well..  Both are well respected.  I have always thought about doing it on the side myself, since I have a plotter, but time is always a factor.  :-)

[Ginsu Victim]

I was originally a bit taken back by your comments of "there is ZERO jaggies", as I know, regardless of the device there are jaggies.

What do you define as jaggies, then? The pixelated jaggies in your picture above? There is nothing even close to that in what I'm looking at. This Galaga marquee is full of curves and curves are a great source of jaggies....and there are none here.

[ubiquityman]

What do you define as jaggies, then? The pixelated jaggies in your picture above? There is nothing even close to that in what I'm looking at. This Galaga marquee is full of curves and curves are a great source of jaggies....and there are none here.

Jaggies are step changes that you can see.
Get out a magnifying glass and view it at 5x and tell me if you can see any jaggies.
Look for high contrast changes such as a light colored curve/outline bordering a dark space without and transition or trapping.

You have to keep in mind that the photo I posted earlier is magnified over 5x, to emphasize the jaggies or at least make them easier to see.

Like I said, if you or someone else can scan at 350DPI, that should be about equivalent to what I previously posted.
I am expecting that you really do have a higher resolution print than what I have, but I just would like to understand how much better it is.

(RE: the mamemarquees link.  I have previously seen their site.  Thanks for the reminder though.)

[D_Harris]

Well, if you have to use a magnifying glass to see jagged edges then for all intents and purposes there are none. 

I would ask what is the best DPI/LPI for artwork, but that would depend on what kind of artwork we are talking about.

Side-art and marquee artwork is typically low in detail.

Nevertheless, since I'm working on a unique art project where the art will be along the lines of that seen on the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine, I would like to get opinions on what kind of hardware is needed for that.(I have my eye on a printer if I can't get it done anywhere else).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Firebat138]

Well...  like I said... use the 100-150 rule...  take the dimensions you need and then multiply the width x 150 and there you have your resolution.  regardless of dpi/lpi/ppi or opp... :-)  If you look at my cab in my sig, all of that artwork STARTED at 300 dpi, but I was working on it at home, and my home computer blows...  So I had to reduce it just to work on it.

What kind of hardware are you referring to, computer specs? or printer?  I use a HP Designjet 5000 42" Plotter with High Gloss film.  I print out posters with this, ALL my artwork on the cab except for the CPO, which Scott at mamemarquees did for me.  The file I sent him I believe was 300 dpi, you can see a closeup in my thread.  Hope that helps a little...  PM me for details, I can print you out a text print if ya want, and ship ya a sample...  New York is right up the road...  :-)

[D_Harris]

Well...  like I said... use the 100-150 rule...  take the dimensions you need and then multiply the width x 150 and there you have your resolution.  regardless of dpi/lpi/ppi or opp... :-)  If you look at my cab in my sig, all of that artwork STARTED at 300 dpi, but I was working on it at home, and my home computer blows...  So I had to reduce it just to work on it.

What kind of hardware are you referring to, computer specs? or printer?  I use a HP Designjet 5000 42" Plotter with High Gloss film.  I print out posters with this, ALL my artwork on the cab except for the CPO, which Scott at mamemarquees did for me.  The file I sent him I believe was 300 dpi, you can see a closeup in my thread.  Hope that helps a little...  PM me for details, I can print you out a text print if ya want, and ship ya a sample...  New York is right up the road...  :-)

I was thinking in terms of a printer. And I assume a P4 with a couple of Gigs of ram is ok for this.

I was thinking about getting an Epson Stylus PRO 7600 for the kind of art-work I want to print out.(At 24" x 36").

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ubiquityman]

Well, if you have to use a magnifying glass to see jagged edges then for all intents and purposes there are none.  

I would ask what is the best DPI/LPI for artwork, but that would depend on what kind of artwork we are talking about.

Side-art and marquee artwork is typically low in detail.

Nevertheless, since I'm working on a unique art project where the art will be along the lines of that seen on the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine, I would like to get opinions on what kind of hardware is needed for that.(I have my eye on a printer if I can't get it done anywhere else).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I was just trying to compare apples to apples.

In terms of printers, how many prints are you going to do?  I have an Epson 6-ink printer to print on CDs and it's a love-hate relationship, but mostly hate.  Most inkjets nowdays have a head cleaning cycle (aka intentional ink wasting cycle) so that if one uses the printer infrequently enough, there is more ink that goes to head cleaning than to the printed material.  Some inkjets signal the ink carts as empty based on number of pages printed even when there's 50% ink left.

If you print frequently enough I can understand the convenience and possibly cost saving to print it yourself, otherwise, I would send it out.

In terms of printing, you should be OK with 2GB of RAM, but you will need a chunk of HD space for the spooler to create a temp file.
Your printed image is going to generate 24x36x2400DPI^2x3 is 13.9GB of raw data.  Most of that will get spooled to the HD.  A fast computer will help a lot for jobs that size.

[Firebat138]

I really cant express enough that an image that is 24x36x2400DPI^2x3, IS WAY TOO BIG.  :-) unless you are confusing the dpi and lpi thing again...  which would be an image at 57600 x 86400 pixels.  Even with my Dual QUAD core and 16gb of Ram, I could not possibly create such an image...

[Ginsu Victim]

.