Author Topic: I'm never going to get a job... (Read 10020 times)

Necro · « **on:** February 01, 2006, 01:34:26 pm »

Oh...my...god. I've spent the last 5.5 years getting a damn Ph.D. and now...now that I'm DONE with it...I can't get a god for saken job. Why? Because everyone want's experience. 2-5 years experience.

I've been working...in a lab...getting a PhD....for 5 and a half years.

That doesn't count though. Nope...not at all...OTHER experience they want.

Trick being? CAN'T GET THE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE I CANT GET A JOB WITHOUT THE EXPERIENCE.

SO...I take a job which requires a lower degree (MS) and (here's the screwed up part) get paid MORE then I would in post-doctoral position...but possibly screw myself later...OR...I get a post-doc and get paid $35000 a year...with a PhD.

Good. Freaking. LORD.

Please note: The above rant comes to you from the letters P, H, and D and the number 5.5. Thank you in advance.

(Oh, first EE post...just needed to vent because I can't take this crap anymore.)

ChadTower · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:38:14 pm »

Sorry about that, but outside of Academia, the PhD doesn't mean all that much more than the Masters does.

There DOES come a point where you've gone as far, educationally, in a field as the real world requires. Anything further, as you are seeing now, is a research area (i.e. back to Academia).

Academia does not pay well unless you get patents.

Necro · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:40:43 pm »

I'm in Biotech/Pharma so...PhD does matter and most upper level positions actually require it. The damn issue is I can't find 'opener' positions for freaking PhDs...which is unbelievable. (Non-academic I'm talking)

TMS · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:44:45 pm »

Where are you located?

Necro · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:50:22 pm »

North East (NJ/PA/MD/DE/DC regions are where I'm looking). There should be TONS of stuff here but for some reason I can't seem to find them. :/

TMS · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:59:01 pm »

I'm surprised NJ is a huge biotech area. I'm in the boston area and work for a mid-sized CRO in IT. They can't hire fast enought to keep up with turnover.

Necro · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2006, 02:15:05 pm »

Everything I'm seeing for PhD's want extensive post-doc experience...that's the problem. I had an interview with a CRO down here (Im in DC right now) and they are deciding w/in a month...hopefully I'll get that, as it would be great but I can't hold my breath on it.

I'm thinking maybe I should just be applying to positions that want a masters with experience instead of wanting PhDs...I just dont want to get in the position where I try to get a job after this and people are like "Oh, well, he works below his level" or "He must be crappy" or something like that.

I'm hoping that it's not it, but I have a feeling some of the NJ companies arent contacting me because my address is in DC. I guess that would be better then them just not wanting me...but maybe I need to address my desire to move to that area in my cover letters.

Gah.

So...frustrating...I really dont want to settle for a post-doc...

SirPoonga · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2006, 02:22:01 pm »

Quote from: Necro on February 01, 2006, 02:15:05 pm

I'm thinking maybe I should just be applying to positions that want a masters with experience instead of wanting PhDs...I just dont want to get in the position where I try to get a job after this and people are like "Oh, well, he works below his level" or "He must be crappy" or something like that.

I don't think you will see too much of that. Is the lab work you did part of your schooling or was it a job?

You know what might be good. Get a job that requires a masters and teach night courses at a local tech college. Even though tech colleges don't require PhD most of the time they prefer PhD. If you do a good job of teaching I think that would count for something.

ChadTower · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2006, 02:29:18 pm »

It does sound like you may be applying for jobs that you aren't qualified for yet. When they say "requires PhD and 5 years of experience" it's not an or proposition...

...best advice I can give is take a lower level job. There is no substitute for field experience. Lab experience and such are only part of it. They are also asking for someone with that experience in the corporate sector, someone who isn't going to have a 6 month learning curve on how to get things done in that environment.

We often have that type of issue with people who come out of school with a masters in cmpsci only to find they have no idea how to accomplish things in a company rather than a school.

fredster · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2006, 02:49:29 pm »

You have to have 2-3 experience before you work at McDonalds? Wow.

SirPoonga · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2006, 03:20:26 pm »

* SirPoonga smacks fredster

Necro · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2006, 03:29:44 pm »

The lab work I've done was technically part of 'schooling'. Well, half of it. Everything went towards my degree work but it's not like 'Ok, today we teach you XYZ'. It was more along the lines of 'Ok, this is my project. I need you three people to do X, you go do Y, I'll work on Z. Give me your data, I'll put it together into a report, etc etc.'

Basically, a science PhD is doing a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ton of work, and learning how to do the research/science design and management.

Well, for me it was. Most people don't get the management thing or get to run their project. I got kind of lucky.

I did see a manager position open at the local McDonalds though...I think I'm qualified for that.

ChadTower · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2006, 03:37:07 pm »

I know what one has to do to get a PhD in a science field... however, now try doing that in a corporate environment with budget requirements, shifting deadlines, dumbass bosses, changing project requirements... there is a whole different set of experience that comes with being in the private sector. It doesn't compare and if you don't have that experience it can take you twice as long to do half as much.

shmokes · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2006, 06:22:04 pm »

There's a lot of truth to that, but acedemia is also often filled with all kinds of busywork assignments that are meant to pound a myriad of concepts into your memory and once you get into the real world you find that you can work far faster and more efficiently because you only have to do the specific things required by any given job. Not to mention that unless you are at MIT or the like you are probably working on 5-10 year old equipment that would be considered totally obsolete in the real world (of course one might argue that this is even more reason to require experience in addition to a degree).

Anyway, good luck.

RayB · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2006, 06:37:36 pm »

NEWSFLASH dude, your complaint is the same complaint EVERYONE has. "cant get a job due to no experience--cant get experience due to no job". I've heard that complaint from highschool drop outs, college grads, university grads... every level of education.

That's why smart students usually favour programs and schools that include good co-op placement programs, etc. Didn't you work at all during your studies??

Ray "reality sucka punch" B.

Dartful Dodger · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2006, 07:13:10 pm »

We're interviewing college grads for a graphics position, and I get a say in who they hire. All the interviewees have the same resume, the same portfolio and the same lack of experience, so I'm voting according to breast size.

Guys like me are the reason it was so hard for a guy like me to find my first job after I graduated. Oh well.

NIVO · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2006, 07:22:58 pm »

u wont get the job at mcDonalds...now your OVER qualified! As trump says "Your fired"

seriously though when are u patenting those mood enhancing M.A.M.E. supplements? We will support ya

knuttz · « **Reply #17 on:** February 01, 2006, 07:50:34 pm »

I was in a very similar situation after college (BS Electrical Engineering). I looked for six months before I landed a job that I was even remotely qualified for. Rayb was harsh but correct in saying that this is a common problem. I recommend applying for jobs that you are overqualified for to get experience. Don't get discouraged, we are here for you.

AtomSmasher · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2006, 08:11:47 pm »

Same thing happened to me (BS Computer Science)...well not exactly because I did have a job for about 6 months that I started a few months before I graduated. Unfortunately the company went out of business so I lost the job and 6 months experience is about as good as no experience, if anything its worse because your not fresh out of college and your not experienced. I ended up taking a security guard job for a few months to pay the bills until I found a good job. Now I'm a real estate appraiser which I didn't even need a degree for, although I do make more money then I would if I was still in computers

missioncontrol · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2006, 11:50:12 pm »

there's allway sanitation engineer

DrewKaree · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2006, 02:35:27 am »

Your PhD will come in handy when being trained on the fryolater. You'll make the bestest fries evar! Yu0 aer teh bsest line cook we evar haded!

Harry Potter · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:55:29 am »

Quote from: missioncontrol on February 01, 2006, 11:50:12 pm

there's allway sanitation engineer

Don't they use cyborgs for that now?

Monkey · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:44:37 am »

Ive got/had the reverse problem

ive got loads of experience with CAD ( 8 years) but as i dont have the qualifiactions no one will employe me, or i will get employed but i dont get paid as much.

Harry Potter · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:16:25 am »

I lied me ass off when I went for my job 5 years ago.

I'm still living a lie.

ChadTower · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:27:02 am »

What it really comes down to is requirements. Requirements are determined by the prospective employer.

If their requirements include both experience and degree, and you only have the degree, you are not qualified.

Don't know what else to tell you, bro. No one is entitled to a job, not by education or experience or a combination of them.

RayB · « **Reply #25 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:46:02 am »

I guess the moral of the story here is aim low when just starting out? $35,000 isn't bad for an "entry level" job. If you're worth your salt and can talk a good talk, you should be able to move up rather quick (assuming your PHD wasn't just a waste of time. -- I swear, all the PHDs I've ever worked with were less skilled than the guys with only CS Bachelors degres).

ChadTower · « **Reply #26 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:49:33 am »

I've encountered that with a few PhD guys as well... very intelligent and capable in academia. Not all that useful in the real world. They could explain a hammer, explain what a hammer does, design experiments to test the hammer and the nails and the wood... but if you asked them to pick up a hammer and use it they'd break their own hand.

fredster · « **Reply #27 on:** February 02, 2006, 02:36:21 pm »

All I am reading is "I can't get the Job I WANT and HOW I want it"

Lassie said it best when she said "oooh, woolf, oooh".

I think he can get a job. Everybody has to do a little gopher time. I don't care what their education is. You don't walk out of college and become a CEO.

With those types of qualifications, he shouldn't be targeting the "job" but the company or organization he wants to work in. Do that, then move up within it. Do the "basic training" required.

missioncontrol · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2006, 02:44:04 pm »

I'm glad I allready have a job because with as much time that I spend here I wouldn't have time to look for one.....

Havok · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:21:46 pm »

What about applying where you did the lab work? They already know you, and you might be able to get in with what you've got. Build your experience in your field as a "regular" employee, and work your way up.

Couple of years go by, and apply where you really want to work...

jjd · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:26:19 pm »

Quote from: fredster on February 02, 2006, 02:36:21 pm

All I am reading is "I can't get the Job I WANT and HOW I want it"

Lassie said it best when she said "oooh, woolf, oooh".

I think he can get a job. Everybody has to do a little gopher time. I don't care what their education is. You don't walk out of college and become a CEO.

With those types of qualifications, he shouldn't be targeting the "job" but the company or organization he wants to work in. Do that, then move up within it. Do the "basic training" required."

Well said.

CCM · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:27:13 pm »

nepotism is the way to go!

RandyT · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:56:19 pm »

It's not what you know, it's who you know......

Got any friends in high places? Start calling them.

Alternatively, get some friends in high places......

RandyT

quarterback · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:16:35 am »

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. I don't know you personally, nor am I well acquainted with your particular field, but I've seen a lot of kids get their PhDs who I'd describe as not-ready-for-primetime. It's not that they're UNqualified, but they're not qualified enough. Hell, I wouldn't hire them, they're barely non-students as far as I can tell.

IMO if you're not getting the kind of jobs you're looking for you should take a post-doc position, get the experience that people are looking for and get the job you *want* in a couple years.

I don't know how post-docs work in your field (and I know they're not all the same even withIN a given field), but my wife did a 2 year post doc where she got paid a lot of money and basically did whatever research and publishing she felt like doing. It was a sweet gig and when she left she went straight into a 'bidding war' that resulted in a very nice job for her. She would have done well for herself even without the post-doc, it just happened to be a good gig so she said "why not". But it also allowed her to do research and publish which just upped her value even more.

quarterback · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:19:58 am »

By the way, congratulations on the PhD.

NAH · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2006, 11:57:22 pm »

get a job with a big company like boehringer ingelheim. start with with entry level job that only requires a bs, and after a year there, apply internally for a more suitable job that requires x years of experience. because you work there they will know more about you and will be more likely to give you a shot without the 'required experience'

http://us.boehringer-ingelheim.com/employment/search/search_new.html

missioncontrol · « **Reply #36 on:** February 04, 2006, 12:36:41 am »

you should have gone to truck driving school

danny_galaga · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2006, 07:41:00 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on February 01, 2006, 01:38:14 pm

Sorry about that, but outside of Academia, the PhD doesn't mean all that much more than the Masters does.

There DOES come a point where you've gone as far, educationally, in a field as the real world requires. Anything further, as you are seeing now, is a research area (i.e. back to Academia).

Academia does not pay well unless you get patents.

did he necessarily say a well paying job? or just a job (hopefully one he enjoys)? you americans with your 'money is everything' philosophy. sheesh! a friend of mine got a job at a university in Kansas straight after getting his phd. how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was it would be more than your average pay. he didn't like the uni however so now he and his wife are at a uni in california. he lectures. cant remember which one. not a famous one like berkely. point is he is able to get work because of that degree. and work he loves (not driving taxis).

edit: just checked. the unis he worked at were kansas state (research funded by dept of navy) and now san diego state.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2006, 08:09:14 am »

Quote from: danny_galaga on February 04, 2006, 07:41:00 am

did he necessarily say a well paying job? or just a job (hopefully one he enjoys)? you americans with your 'money is everything' philosophy. sheesh! a friend of mine got a job at a university in Kansas straight after getting his phd. how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was it would be more than your average pay. he didn't like the uni however so now he and his wife are at a uni in california. he lectures. cant remember which one. not a famous one like berkely. point is he is able to get work because of that degree. and work he loves (not driving taxis).

Exactly. And I also find it depressing that so many people get qualifications just to eventually get a well paid job. Education should be its own reward.

Did you enjoy your 5.5 years getting a PhD? If the answer is yes then it wasn't time wasted. Personally I'd try and stay in academia. Academics have a degree of autonomy and freedom that most employees can only dream about. You'll probably earn more money in "the real world" but you'll also have to put up with a lot of crap. And you'll soon find that in any large organisation it's not necessarily the most qualified or most capable people who rise to the top.

Life's too short to be continually worrying about getting a better paid job n years down the line. Remember you can't take the money with you. Learn to focus on the journey instead of the destination.

DrewKaree · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2006, 11:48:16 am »

Quote from: Grasshopper on February 04, 2006, 08:09:14 am

Education should be its own reward.

Learn to focus on the journey instead of the destination.

Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.

Try to picture this: A "journey" that is open to more possibilities due to the financial reward brought about by that education


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