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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: ChadTower on July 20, 2007, 03:24:35 pm
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Sorry tommy, not those Giants.
The SF Giants. Bonds has 753 homeruns. Anyone else going to try and make sure they see 755 and 756?
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Bloody cheaters, he should retire now.
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What rules has he broken? Has he failed any drug test?
Sure, the guy very likely took them, but so did so many other players that it shouldn't be held against only some.
What I don't get is why people only point fingers at homerun hitters. Are pitchers and smaller guys not potential steroid users?
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Actually i'm all for him breaking the record. He was good for many many years without using anything and using drugs will not make you a superstar overnight, you either have it or you do not.
It's just too bad people will never hold this record as high as it should be.
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:angry: After he almost single handily beat my Cubbies yesterday I will not be watching Him beat THE Record. I was never really interested in Bonds and what he did or how he did it. If (when) he does beat the record there will always be people that will think he cheated by using performance enhancing drugs. Your shoe size doesn't get bigger nor does your hat size, his have.
Kaytrim
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I'm mostly of the opinion that any of the excessive records of the past 20 or so years are pretty much tainted. Not just the homerun records. There were a lot of "holy crap never thought we'd see that" records in baseball in the steroid era. Most of them are pitching records, too.
Are drugs that are within the rules cheating? Steroids were not against the rules for most of his career. You also have to figure steroids don't win you gold gloves. Bonds has like 9 gold gloves.
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I hate baseball, but it might be worth watching in case there are some good brawls in the stands over the homerun balls again.
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I hate baseball too, so I won't be watching. I can honestly say that I haven't watched as much as a single inning of baseball this year.
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I'll watch just to see how many homeruns Arod is gonna need to pass him someday.
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Looks like Barry Bonds has 8 gold gloves:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/awards/aw_ggnl.shtml
Not surprisingly the last one was in 1998 about the time he started bulking up. I believe he's a huge liability in the field now.
Of course Bonds will break the record eventually. I certainly won't go out of my way to see him hit 755 or 756.
If I was a head coach of the opposing team this season, I'd intentionally walk him or drill'em every time he was up to bat. Put him on base where he can't run and is really a liability. Hank Aaron will always be the home run king.
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How about i bean you every time you come on the forum. :applaud:
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I'll watch just to see how many homeruns Arod is gonna need to pass him someday.
Will still take him quite a few years at his current pace... while Arod is sure as hell great, there is no way to be sure he'll be great long enough.
Steroids don't make you a .375 hitter, either. Like tommy said, either you have it or you don't, and steroids will only put it over the top. If steroids could make people hit .375, Bonds would have hit .500.
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How about i bean you every time you come on the forum. :applaud:
If you throw like Eli Manning, I should be safe. ;D
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Oh a giant joke, very clever. Bean>>>>>>>>>Billf :angel:
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The Homerun record has nothing on Cal Ripken Jr's "Iron man" record. ;D
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The only sacred achievement in Baseball is The Dock Ellis LSD No-Hitter.
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I hadn't heard about that... that's awesome.
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I hadn't heard about that... that's awesome.
I hadn't heard about that either, but I just read about it at snopes (http://www.snopes.com/sports/baseball/ellis.asp). If you take him at his word, I would call it impressive, certainly not awesome - nothing really "awesome" about a pro athlete taking hallucinogenic drug.
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I'm a big baseball fan, but I won't be watching any Giants games until Bonds retires. There's some other guys in the league that I try to avoid watching too (Giambi, Sosa, Matthews, etc).
While steroids weren't technically against the rules when a lot of these guys started using, they were against the law. And beyond that, it's a matter of respect for the game - something that Bonds lacks. Bonds admitted in court to "unknowingly" using steroids. Bonds has consequently been called out as a cheater by the fans, like McGwire was called out by the baseball writers who didn't vote him into the hall of fame this year. If Bonds was not so self-centered, and had a shred of honor and dignity, he'd be able to see the difference between what he is doing and what Aaron did, and the damage he's causing to the game, and act accordingly.
If some good comes out of all this, I hope that it at least leads to some greater scrutiny of traditional HoF thresholds like 500 HR, 3000 hits, etc, and causes people to re-evaluate the careers of people like Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, etc.
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The HR threshhold was always 400HR, not 500. It used to be either 400HR or 3000 hits were automatic entry, which is why guys like Yastrzemski were such a big deal, having done both. IIRC it's only like 7-8 guys with both 400 and 3000. 500/3000 is only 4 guys, IIRC, and sadly one of them is Palmeiro.
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I totally agree with what Guaranos posted.
Chad, I believe what Guaranos was implying is is that 500 home runs is currently a lock for the HoF (unless your Mark McGuire) and 3000 hits is a lock. Not that both needed to be achieved.
Like you said though only a few select are part of the 3000 hit/500 hr club. Here is a wiki entry for the 3000-500 Club (and you're right Palmeiro is in this select group):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3000-500_Club
Here's a cool stat: Hank Aaron had 755 home runs and 3771 career hits. If you take away all of his home runs, he still has over 3000 hits. That is amazing.
Bonds has a long way to go to get 3000 hits. He's currently just over 2900 hits.
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What rules has he broken? Has he failed any drug test?
:laugh2: OJ Simpson is innocent too, right?
What I don't get is why people only point fingers at homerun hitters. Are pitchers and smaller guys not potential steroid users?
He stinks because he's an ass. When asked what memorabilia he might send to Cooperstown to document his record, he said, "I look out for me"
It's his asshatness in my eyes that makes most people hate him. Hank Aaron was a great player who put up with too much during his run. He's still a great man. Bonds is a --cream-filled twinkie--.
Hank Aaron sent everything he could to cooperstown. He said it was because "the record belongs to the people" :notworthy:
Oh, and I think Bonds should send his hats to cooperstown. His hats throughout the years. One size 7, one 7 1/2, one 8, etc. Rick Reilly made that joke.
=J
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The HR threshhold was always 400HR, not 500. It used to be either 400HR or 3000 hits were automatic entry, which is why guys like Yastrzemski were such a big deal, having done both. IIRC it's only like 7-8 guys with both 400 and 3000. 500/3000 is only 4 guys, IIRC, and sadly one of them is Palmeiro.
For players from the 70's on up, 400 isn't a lock. See Dave Kingman, Darrell Evans, etc. Most of their careers were played in the 70's, they have 400+ HR, and are not in. That list is growing, with Andre Dawson (still a chance), Jose Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, probably Bagwell, probably McGriff, etc.
500 is getting nearly as meaningless when people like Frank Thomas and Jim Thome can devolve into one-dimensional players fairly early in their career and still reach (or in Thome's case, soon reach) the threshold. Guys like Thome and Thomas are not in the same class as Mantle, Banks, etc no matter what their HR totals end up at. The guys who are currently reaching/nearing 600, known cheaters excluded, are the types of players that belong in the hall.
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Boo to juicers!
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And yet the only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that no one dares say "steroids" and "Clemens" in the same sentence for some reason. Can't figure that one out.
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Boo to juicers!
Really? I thought everyone was a fan of "Will It Blend"? ;D
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Boo to juicers!
Hooray Beer!
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And yet the only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that no one dares say "steroids" and "Clemens" in the same sentence for some reason. Can't figure that one out.
I'm with you there. I think Clemens is at least as much of a cheater as Bonds.
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I look at it this way. When Clemens was in his final two years with Boston, I lived within walking distance of Fenway (at Northeastern). I caught a couple games a week (scalpers will dump them for pennies in the second inning) and nearly all of Clemens' starts that last season. He was done. Shoulder dead, hell I saw him hit three guys in one inning because he had no control at all. Duquette recognizes this and cuts him loose rather than give him a huge new contract. He goes to Toronto with his minced ham right shoulder and somehow wins two Cy Youngs and is back to his 24 year old 1986 self for the next several years.
Do the math. That guy has at least as many needle marks between his toes as Bonds. Probably more.
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I look at it this way. When Clemens was in his final two years with Boston, I lived within walking distance of Fenway (at Northeastern). I caught a couple games a week (scalpers will dump them for pennies in the second inning) and nearly all of Clemens' starts that last season. He was done. Shoulder dead, hell I saw him hit three guys in one inning because he had no control at all. Duquette recognizes this and cuts him loose rather than give him a huge new contract. He goes to Toronto with his minced ham right shoulder and somehow wins two Cy Youngs and is back to his 24 year old 1986 self for the next several years.
Do the math. That guy has at least as many needle marks between his toes as Bonds. Probably more.
And who was on his team the year before his magical revival? Jose Canseco. The same Jose Canseco who played with McGwire, Giambi, Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Tejada, etc, etc.
If you look at the teams Canseco joined, you'll see some interesting trends. He seems to bring out the best in a lot of players, and not just the obvious ones like those mentioned above. Look at guys like Shawn Green, Mo Vaughn, Reggie Jefferson, etc. Either Jose was a heck of a mentor and could be the greatest hitting coach ever, or he had some great connections.
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Did Jose accuse Clemens in his book?
Oh and BTW, a pitcher can regain form. Rest, a change in training, etc. can work wonders for a pitcher. FYI, Nolan Ryan could still hurl the heat into his 40's and of course he wasn't a juicer.
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Clemens' problem wasn't form, it was a dead shoulder. He spent the most of is last two seasons in Boston on the DL. Pitchers don't regain their fastball in their mid 30s, just like running backs (with mileage) don't get better at 30.
Ryan was a freak and threw until his arm literally snapped on the mound. That was ugly.
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Clemens' problem wasn't form, it was a dead shoulder. He spent the most of is last two seasons in Boston on the DL. Pitchers don't regain their fastball in their mid 30s, just like running backs (with mileage) don't get better at 30.
Ryan was a freak and threw until his arm literally snapped on the mound. That was ugly.
Sorry, you got the wrong person there. Dave Dravecky was the unfortunate soul who had the gruesome arm snap incident.
Ryan did tear a ligament in his final appearance, but the freak threw one more pitch before calling it quits....a 98 mph pitch....at ~46 years old. ;D
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I remember watching that game. His arm sure looked like it snapped. The elbow came halfway back the wrong way.
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I remember watching that game. His arm sure looked like it snapped. The elbow came halfway back the wrong way.
Do you mean the actual elbow looked like it was flopping around during the pitching motion? If so, that is what a pitchers elbow looks like in slow mo during delivery. One time, the analysts were going over Andy Pettittes delivery, and when his forearm started forward, his elbow looked ridiculously broken. It was frikkin gross and unnatural looking.
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I played baseball for nearly 15 years and have coached it another ten. I know what a pitcher's elbow looks like during delivery.
His forearm was flopping wrongly between pitches. He was very obviously injured and was too damn stubborn to come off the mound... then it was worse after the next pitch and he was done.
Ryan was one of my idols as a kid... Nolan Ryan, Pete Rose ( :banghead: :banghead: ), Carl Yastrzemski, and Steve Grogan.
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I'm a Giants fan and I stopped watching games about 3 years ago since they suck so bad and invested everything into Mr. Bonds. He makes them a lot of money, and it's a business after all.
That said, I'll probably try to catch a few at bats here and there.
I could care less about the steroid issue. I don't care if he's a jerk. I want entertainment. He's entertaining and fun to watch. When I lived in LA I used to go to a lot of Giants/Dodgers games and sit out in left field in about the same spot, pretty close to the fence where the Dodger pitchers warm up. My wife and I always wore our Giants gear and had to take a lot of crap from the Dodger's fans. And every game we went to, Barry saw us up in the stands and tipped his hat and smiled. So there. Of course that was in the early 90's when he wasn't as jaded by all the negative stuff he has to deal with. Not that he didn't invite it himself.
I just want the Giants to put a good product on the field some day.
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I played baseball for nearly 15 years and have coached it another ten. I know what a pitcher's elbow looks like during delivery.
You'd be the first to point out the vast difference between pro football, semi-pro football, and a flag football game. You didn't play in the majors, you didn't coach in the majors, therefore you do not, in fact, know what a major-league pitcher's elbow looks like during delivery or what it actually means to his motion. The best you can claim is that you played against or coached someone who may have made it to the majors. The time between them making it to the majors and when you saw them could and most likely would involve improvement and an increase in something you wouldn't have seen, something that made them even more effective.
Shardian stated that Ryan effed a ligament up. You even stated that it "looked" like it snapped, not that you were certain of it when he questioned what you saw.
Carry on.
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For something like the supernatural looking way a pitcher's arm bends, all you have to do is watch a lot of MLB on TV. If I don't know, then certainly Sharidan doesn't know for the same reason, and we're both ignorant.
:)
BTW, ligaments snap too, and it is more frequent and sometimes more ugly than a bone break, beacuse the joint will just flop the wrong way under force.
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I could care less about the steroid issue. I don't care if he's a jerk. I want entertainment. He's entertaining and fun to watch.
The steroid issue and him being a jerk detract from the entertainment and "fun to watch" aspect. If they didn't, you wouldn't have even noticed or mentioned that he was a jerk because you would simply find him entertaining. His asinine behavior detract from his on-field performance, you're just willing to endure a higher amount of it than others for reasons that are personal to you. His behavior is a result of what you rightly pointed out as well - he invited this stuff on himself.
I have had exactly one "encounter" with the man, and it wasn't favorable. My kid was too small and was being pushed out of the way by other autograph whores, so I told him to stand off to the side and I'd get a ball signed by him. He never signed it, and stood there making snide comments about me being "one of those guys who'd turn around and cash in on his signature", glancing over at me periodically so I got the point that he was speaking to me.
When I had had enough, I took my kid by the hand and moved back to the place where I was standing, put the ball in my kid's hand, and helped him lean over the railing, at which time the jackass said "all done for today guys, see you at the next game".
He's a first-class a-hole in my book, and it's all because he thinks more highly of himself than he ought. The jackass should try a real job someday, and he might lose a third of that chip he carries around on his shoulder about how he's "persecuted". I put more stock in what Jessie and Al have to say, and it's well documented around here how I feel about those two.
I do believe I wouldn't piss on Bonds to put him out if he were on fire. :soapbox:
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I remember watching that game. His arm sure looked like it snapped. The elbow came halfway back the wrong way.
from wikipedia:
Nolan Ryan's very durable arm finally gave out in Seattle on September 22, 1993, when he tore a ligament, ending his career two starts earlier than planned. Briefly attempting to pitch past the injury, Ryan threw one further pitch after tearing his ligament; with his injured arm, his final pitch was measured at 98 miles per hour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Ryan
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I played baseball for nearly 15 years and have coached it another ten. I know what a pitcher's elbow looks like during delivery.
Chad is superman, really.
=J
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Did Jose accuse Clemens in his book?
Jose said Clemens was the only guy he knew who never cheated on his wife. He also said that he never saw Clemens use steroids, and once had him deny it to him personally, but often discussed with him what it could do for a pitcher. He often heard him make references to B12 shots which was a common code word for steroids.
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Clemens' problem wasn't form, it was a dead shoulder. He spent the most of is last two seasons in Boston on the DL. Pitchers don't regain their fastball in their mid 30s, just like running backs (with mileage) don't get better at 30.
Ryan was a freak and threw until his arm literally snapped on the mound. That was ugly.
Sorry, you got the wrong person there. Dave Dravecky was the unfortunate soul who had the gruesome arm snap incident.
Ryan did tear a ligament in his final appearance, but the freak threw one more pitch before calling it quits....a 98 mph pitch....at ~46 years old. ;D
Tony Saunders also had his arm snap while pitching - twice. In his book, Canseco said that Saunders was a heavy steroid user, and was especially bulky when the first snap happened. I've heard something about steroids affecting your bone density (not sure how true that is), so that might make sense. Dravecky was a completely different situation, as his arm was riddled with cancer.
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Steroids don't usualy directly affect bone density, but they do affect the balance between muscle strength and tensile strength of everything else. The muscles become disproportionately strong and the parts attached to them start to fail. Ligaments rip, cartilage tears, etc. In rare cases a bone can break.
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You're just willing to endure a higher amount of it than others for reasons that are personal to you.
I guess it's like your disdain of him being fueled by your experience, huh?
Anyway, I refer to him as a jerk because that's the vernacular for Barry Bonds nowadays not because I see him that way. I don't pay attention to anything other than him trying to hit baseballs. At the end of the day, I don't really care one way or another.
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Bonds in the no-steroid era: :laugh2: :laugh2:
(http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0724/mlb_g_bonds_412.jpg)
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Bonds in the no-steroid era: :laugh2: :laugh2:
(http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0724/mlb_g_bonds_412.jpg)
Maybe. That is also him in the end of his career as a tired old player with little to nothing left to offer. I don't think we can say that is from steroids, i don''t think if he were to take steroids now he can be good again in any way.
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I don't think we can say that is from steroids
:dizzy:
Dude admitted to using them. Whether he wants to fess up to KNOWINGLY using them instead of "I didn't know what was in that cream"....nevermind. This is another of those "court of public opinion" things you'll never get.
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Shhh... he admitted in a sealed document that he used them... we're not supposed to know that.
That's why MLB can't suspend him. It was leaked grand jury testimony that we're not legally entitled to have.
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Did you READ any of what i said drew? Being too old is not an effect of drugs.
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Actually, being floppy and saggy is a direct effect of having been on large amounts of juice and then stopping them all at once... like when they tell you you're going to be tested.
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Did you READ any of what i said drew? Being too old is not an effect of drugs.
Did you look at the picture? Chad just laid it out for you, but take another gander at the picture too. Now, it's not a full-body shot, but MrC will have to provide us that, and frankly, I don't want what he's selling.
Take a look at his tomato can. Your head doesn't grow to the proportions his has without....hey, what was one of the side effects of steroids again? How 'bout the dude's friggen feet someone brought up.
Here's a better comparison for you:
(http://r_harrison.tripod.com/Agonist/BarryBonds.jpg)
(http://121gigawatts.blogspot.com/bonds.jpg)
(http://static.flickr.com/52/125483341_effc85c5db.jpg)
(http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Barry-Bonds_0.jpg)
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I don't want to argue if he was on steroids or not, frankly i think he probably was and i do not care. But that's not the point.
Let me explain another thing to you, when you're younger your frame is not as thick as it is when you get old and fat. How's that?
I can get a pic of anyone from now and 20 years ago and it would look like that if the person was not playing very often and was injured alot, but that is still not to say he did not take drugs.
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I don't want to argue if he was on steroids or not, frankly i think he probably was and i do not care. But that's not the point.
Let me explain another thing to you, when you're younger your frame is not as thick as it is when you get old and fat. How's that?
I can get a pic of anyone from now and 20 years ago and it would look like that if the person was not playing very often and was injured alot, but that is still not to say he did not take drugs.
I believe in Book of Shadows they attach dates to his increase in size of cleat and hat. IIRC, it was pretty much all within the span of 2 years or so.
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Uh, tommy, your frame doesn't fill out at 33 years old. It does that at 20.
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http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/06/02/161220.php
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What about this guy? What happened there?
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http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/06/02/161220.php
"From 2000 on through the 2004 season Bonds’ impressive musculature and his gaudy home run numbers were all the talk of baseball, as he hit 258 home runs during this span for an average of 52 per season. In the previous 14 seasons Bonds had hit 445 homers, good for a respectable but not spectacular 32 per season."
14 seasons. 32 HR's per season.
4 seasons. 52 HR's per season.
Now his numbers just dropped off like a Neikro knuckler. All because he got fat. Thankfully, steroids don't cause such changes in people so we can rule that out. Just ask Lyle Alzado.
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What about this guy? What happened there?
Are you saying Tony Gwynn had a couple of years in between where he looked like Triple H? Barry Bonds did.
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What about this guy? What happened there?
Are you saying Tony Gwynn had a couple of years in between where he looked like Triple H? Barry Bonds did.
One only needs to look at Tony Gwynn throughout the course of his career. As Shardian pointed out, Bonds' physical changes happened over the course of two years. There isn't a reasonable person alive that can't see Tony Gwynn's changes occurred over the entire course of his career.
Tommy's attempt to compare the two simply doesn't stand up to a cursory examination as Chad's pointing out.
Tony Gwynn also wasn't EVER known for feats of strength but WAS blessed with sheer consistency, something steroids (and the cycle it causes) isn't known for, nor known to help. Note the link you gave, tommy, and the stated facts in there. For 14 years, Bonds was a model of consistency, as was Gwynn. For 4 years after that, at a point at which people simply don't get magical powers and blow up, Bonds damn near DOUBLED his AVERAGE.
He's not tailing off because he's gotten fat, and it's laughable after looking at the stats he's amassed to suggest so. He's gotten fat because he's had to go off the 'roids due to hyper-sensitive scrutiny and he simply can't recover/maintain/gain in the manner that the drugs used to allow him, meaning getting off or reducing the 'roid usage is responsible for his tailing off in production, getting injured more often, and lastly, getting fat.
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Actually, being floppy and saggy is a direct effect of having been on large amounts of juice and then stopping them all at once...
Yeah, your wife said that was your standard excuse. Zing!!!!! ;D
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Hey! I was never on steroids. If I were I would have been much bigger.
I wasn't ambitious enough to juice. :laugh2: That stuff is expensive.
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I think this guy must have just gotten of steroids too:
(http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/football/nfl/img10269301.jpg)
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Well Barry passed Aaron tonight. I didn't see it happen, but apparently they ran a taped message from Aaron on the stadium board. Here is what he said:
"It is a great accomplishment which required skill, longevity and determination."
"Throughout the past century, the home run has held a special place in baseball and I have been privileged to hold this record for 33 of those years. I move over now and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historic achievement."
"My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams."
Aaron is a class act.
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Bonds is a cheater. The real record is still 755.
I think Hank Aaron should juice up too, come out of retirement (it's only been 31 years or so), and have a showdown with Bonds for the rest of the season.
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(Chad sits and waits for someone to say 868).
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IMO 56 is a much more significant record than 755 was. I don't think there's a drug, amphetamine, steroid, hallucinogen, clear, cream, or whatever, that will help you get hits in 56 consecutive games.
You'd think with the dilution of pitching talent in the major leagues someone would have made a run at 56, but no one has.
I hope A-Rod stays healthy and plays long enough to pass Bonds.
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I'm not sure why everyone looks at Rodrigeuz like he is so obviously clean. He played in the steroid era too.
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I'm not sure why everyone looks at Rodrigeuz like he is so obviously clean. He played in the steroid era too.
He has been consistently as good as he is now since he was in High School. You have to remember, he was screwed out of the MVP his ROOKIE year!
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Doesn't matter, though... there is exactly the same amount of proof that he is clean that people have of most players being dirty in those years. None. So he shouldn't be clear of suspicion either.
Plus he's a ---smurfette---.
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(Chad sits and waits for someone to say 868).
If you're going to count Japan, you might as well count AAA too. Japanese baseball is good, but any league in which Tuffy Rhodes can be a superstar isn't on the same level as MLB.
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Japanese baseball now is consistently producing world class players that continue to be all stars when they come here.
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Yet another reason why I wish Japanese television was beamed over here. I think I'd actually watch Japanese baseball from what I've seen of it.
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Japanese baseball now is consistently producing world class players that continue to be all stars when they come here.
So are AA and AAA. A few standouts don't prove anything except that it's a good farm system for the MLB.
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Yet another reason why I wish Japanese television was beamed over here. I think I'd actually watch Japanese baseball from what I've seen of it.
Same here. They actually play baseball over there - not homerun derby...which is why the won the Baseball classic. The U.S. is lucky they didn't get knocked out in the first round.