The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: DrewKaree on March 19, 2005, 02:50:58 am
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The focus is on the ILLEGAL part of the description.
To take a page from Peale, discuss:
http://www.foxnews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html)
I know it's from Fox, but you'll just have to get over it, or find your own stinking links. ::)
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I live in LA and I teach in the inner city, many of my students are probably illegal and filling my VERY expensive special ed classrooms. I love these children and give them everything I've got on a daily basis, but it sucks when you can't go to half the city you live in because your spanish isn't good enough. It is a problem that should be addressed but there isn't a solution involving the supply side of a problem.
This is a supply and demand issue. There is a supply of cheap labor in rural Mexico.
There is a demand for cheap here (well under the LEGAL minimmun wage)
End demand and end supply. Simple
From the supply side there is always going to be someone who will fill it, wheather it's a drug dealer, or a prostitute. Supply will always show up. If someone has an example of a problem soved by attacking supply I'd like to hear it.
Illegal Immigration is an easy problem to solve. In fact Reagan gave us the solution back in 80's. The solution had 2 parts:
1. Leagalize those who were already here
and like it or not that happened
2. Anyone hiring Illegal immigrants would be subject to a major fine and could have HALF of their assets siezed.
NEVER HAPPENED not once
No jobs = why come
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Thank goodness that Bush has a plan to stop illegal immigration -- by making it legal!
What's up with that anyways? Do the republicans have any real principles? Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case). Not related to making government smaller or less intrusive. And on and on.
What do the republicans really stand for anyways?
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Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).
I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue. It might do you well to do some more reading into it. While it probably won't change your views, at least you'd understand the concept behind why the case is important, and it certainly isn't because of a sanctity of marriage point.
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Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).
I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue.
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Sounds like we got similar issues over here in the UK with people from every nationality under the sun now claiming asylum and then expecting the British tax payer to provide them with accomodation, social security and free health service. All this whilst our own pensioners exist on a pittance from the state!
Mr Blair & his chronies refuse to do anything about it and would if they could simply open the doors and let anybody into the country in the interest of the "economy" (cheap labor). Also I assume everybody who arrives would be issued with their own Labour Party membership card by Tony.
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Yes we have them here in Ky also.
The state let the farmers ship them in because we Americans refused to work that hard for $100.00 a week and no benefits.
This is a load of dung. We as a country set the rules. You do not like a product or the price , you no buy! very simple. Industry will change or go out of business.
Farmers ...Pay a good wage or go out of business. Do not tell me this line of crap about farmers having it so hard. look at the $$$$$$$ tractors the big fat slob is sitting in.
as far as the brain dead girl. what in the heck is congress doing? They have no right in this case. Now we make up laws as we go. OK but still congress has no rights doing it. We have other government for that.
its like them talking to baseball...?
I got one thing to say to Washington .. Democrats and republicans alike
OK 2 things ... I forgot about the 2ND pic
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The Schiavo case is a different thread.
As far as supply and demand goes for cheap labor, I agree. But to me it doesn't matter. I don't believe for a second that Americans won't do these jobs. I believe they won't do the jobs for the pay. Mexicans are screwing it up for the USA. Simple as that.
The pay would have to change to get and hold American Citizens. It would change what we pay for food, and that hits a lot of people. It would also raise the costs for all sorts of goods, but they likely need adjustment anyway.
Mexicans are replacing Americans on a lot fronts and putting American small business out of business. Take a look at Bricklayers, contractors, and landscapers. If any of you watch HGTV you can see it. Who is doing all the work for the landscapers? Yep, mexicans.
I have worked in factories that make metal parts for years. I've started to see the Americans replaced by Mexicans in the harder hand work jobs, and it upsets me. These Mexicans are really good people, they are hard working, they don't complain, and they work steady. But when I was younger I did those jobs too. I worked for that pay.
I think they should build the wall up like they did in Israel. I think that we can have Mexicans in here if we know who they are and they go through the proper legal channels, whatever that may be. I also think they should fine any company that hires them. How hard could that be? All they would have to do is double the INS agents, start driving busses up to the companies with warrants and check all the green cards, city by city, factory by factory until the employers get the idea.
The problem is that the Dems want the vote and the Republicans want the vote and labor. They site all this crap about how hard working these people are, but in the end they lower the wage scale for everybody, suck up the resources for Americans, and leave. I don't like it.
Legal immigration is fine with me. More power to people who want to live in the USA, legally. But jumping the fence and leaving is not an option.
Find a candidate that says we'll lock up the border or even reduce the flow and I'll back him 100%. Democrat, Republican, or Druid, I'm with him (or her).
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This all boils down to the minimum wage. Americans won't do these jobs because they won't work for less than the minimum wage. And why should they? The don't have to. But that leaves the door open for illegal workers who *will* work for less than the minimum wage. If the labor market were left to determine the cost of labor instead of the minimum wage artificially raising it, this issue would certainly not be as big as it is.
Some politicians will argue that people can't survive on any less. But the bottom line is that if you didn't need that job, you wouldn't do it. Any amount of money is better than no money at all. And as a worker gains experience, their wages will increase. If their current company doesn't pay them more, then another one will if the laborer's skills are valuable enough to them.
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Frester you're dead on with going business by business. That would end it, and fast. I also agree that Americans would do the jobs if there was a real paycheck.
As for the min. wage, there are people that are willing to do all the manual labor out of desperation for near nothing and they aren't Americans. Geting rid of the wage rules would just make lots of poor people a lot poorer. That leads to BIG social problems. Lazie faire didn't work for most Americans 120 years ago and it isn't about to start now.
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Minimum wage has nothing to do with it. If there was a real minimum wage it would be around $11 an hour.
I don't know where you guys live, but it doens't take a genuis to figure out that rent at it's cheapest is about $300 a month. If you are going to have a car and all the tags, insurance, and care it's going to cost you at least $200 a month, and for gas, food, and clothes and utilities you add another 400 or 500 a month. With taxes and all, it's way over 5.50 an hour if you plan to do anything besides get up, work, and sleep.
My point is that if an employer can't find people to work at a certain wage, he has to raise it. He raises his prices to his customer. If they won't pay, he has to find better ways of doing his business. If that doesn't work, he goes out of business.
That's "Lazie faire" in it's pure form. But we have given life support to companies that shouldn't be here because of this.
First, get the employers. Adjust the wages to where they need to be. I believe that the mexicans are one of the reasons we have a CEO making $100,000,000 and an employee making $10000. That Big $ salary is being proped up by the mexicans. And it isn't fair to the rest because the balance of wages is way out of kilter.
Get rid of the low cost labor and the mix changes. It means higher prices in some things and possibly the death of dinosaur businesses that shouldn't be operating anyway.
Again, I don't have a thing against legal immigration. That's fine. But the worst thing is that these people break the law by comming here in the first place. They break laws while they are here by identity fraud. They cause neighbor hoods to collapse by the influx of these illegals. If anything happens and they can't hold a job (like they get hurt, etc) then there are big problems. Lots of people with no money also equals crime. Drugs are a way of making money, and they are bringing them in also.
What's the % of illegals in jails now? It should be 0, but what is it? 20% 30%, what?
It's not fair to them, but they are so despirate to make more than $10 a year in Mexico they will cut their own lives short for a chance at the big money. And for the people who do come here legally and follow the rules it's just not fair.
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OK, another perspective from the UK.
First of all, I agree with most of what's been said so far.
The main reason for allowing immigration is essentially altruistic i.e. to allow people from other countries to escape from poverty and/or political repression. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, after all we have screwed the third world for hundreds of years, and it's about time we gave something back. But immigration has to be tightly controlled to maintain social cohesion, and to protect the environment and infrastructure.
The problem is that the pro-immigration lobby don't present their case in these terms. Instead we get a load of BS about how the economy would collapse without immigration.
The two biggest lies are that immigration is necessary to counteract the economic effects of an ageing population and to deal with the mysterious 'skills shortage'.
The only sustainable way to deal with an ageing population is to raise the retirement age. No one ever seems to ask what happens when the immigrants themselves retire. All immigration does is pospone the problem and potentially make it worse for the next generation.
What irritates me even more is business leaders bleating on about the so called 'skills shortage'. In a properly functioning market economy a skills shortage should be self-correcting.
Basically far too many companies are perfectly happy to pay preposterous salaries to their top executives, but don't want to pay the market rate for skilled jobs lower down the corporate ladder, or to pay for in-house training. It's blatant hypocrisy. If they paid the market rate then potential employees would be prepared to invest in getting the necessary skills for themselves.
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Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).
I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue.
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One point I want to make to no one in particular. There are many more illegals than just "the Mexicans". They are just more visible. It's not right to target them. If only you kne how many white people around you... perhaps the waiter you just served you, or heck maybe even the guy in the next cubicle who does the same job you do. Illegals come from all countries and come in all colors. But one thing I do know, is that not too many people who come from cushy middle class Californian cities would want to be out in the fields picking vegetables in 90' heat.
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Yep, RayB, but they are high on the list okay?
It's not right to target them.
Sure it is. Let's do a pareto diagram and go from #1 to #10. Let's see, who's number one? AH, people from Mexico!
If only you kne how many white people around you... perhaps the waiter you just served you, or heck maybe even the guy in the next cubicle who does the same job you do.
Nope. Not a one. Not a single one here. What white guys immigrate here illegally? And if they do, what country do they come in from? Canada or Mexico?
But one thing I do know, is that not too many people who come from cushy middle class Californian cities would want to be out in the fields picking vegetables in 90' heat.
Then they have a job don't they. But there are a lot of people who don't have jobs. I don't mind LEGAL immigration, worker passes, etc. It's when they jump the fence and just come in that I take exception to.
If no one harvested the crops, they would find a way to up the pay or we'd do without wouldn't we? We are enabling this situation by justifying it. We have made up production by technology. We'd figure a better way. I grew up on a farm. Back in those days they have very few migrant workers. There were lots of Americans that did the seasonal work.
Build the wall, stop the flow of illegals from the southern border, and then we can begin to manage the situation. I'm talking about Control, not exclusion.
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My point is that if an employer can't find people to work at a certain wage, he has to raise it. He raises his prices to his customer. If they won't pay, he has to find better ways of doing his business. If that doesn't work, he goes out of business.
That is exactly right. But there *are* people willing to work for less than minimum wage. They may not be here legally, but the fact is that they are here, and you aren't going to stop them.
The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.
As for not being able to live off of the minimum wage or lower, that's not what these jobs are there for really. They are entry level, low skilled jobs. A worker wouldn't stay in one of these jobs forever. They would move up as they gained experience. You guys talk like you expect someone to live their whole life working a minimum wage job and be able to live off of the salary. That just doesn't happen in real life if the worker is of any quality.
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Ack, it's laissez faire, that is driving me nuts.
Forget Israel's wall. It's not enough. Emulate China's wall. Use the illegals to build the damn thing, if they die in the process emtomb them in it, and then use it to keep them out. If they want to come legally they can use the security door.
My mother used to work in the welfare system here in MA. I used to sit in her office after school until she finished her day a couple of times a week. I saw the things people do to defraud the welfare system. Yes, there were citizens defrauding the system too, but 90% of the offenders were illegals (and nearly all hispanic in our area). I'm talking about filing benefits for nonexistant kids, pretending adamantly to not speak English, packing 15 people into a one bedroom apartment, all of them receiving a benefit of the full cost of rent. The system was so overloaded that by the time someone came around to check, as soon as the notices arrived, the people would disappear back to Puerto Rico. They had no intention of staying, contributing, or doing anything positive. This isn't even counting the health care costs for when they show up at the ER or the cost of educating the kids in public schools.
I graduated from Salem (MA) High School. At least a quarter of my class didn't graduate and didn't intend to graduate. They were in school because it was a requrement in order to receive welfare benefits if they were under 18. I'd say another 20-30% of those particular students were obviously at least 20. We had 11th graders who looked like Lando Calrissian. The whole thing was weighing down the school so badly that those who truly wanted an education couldn't get one because it simply wasn't there to be had. My wife (obviously not at the time) graduated with me and she used to cry at night sometimes because she wanted to get into a good college, wanted to get a real education but the teachers were 70 years old, the books were falling apart, and even those teachers who tried to teach a class spent more time trying to maintain order than teaching. By the time she got to a University she had to take remedial classes in math just to get to basic algebraic skills and she is very intelligent person.
Now, I realize I say all of this as an immigrant myself, but I have always done everything I humanly could to be a productive member of society. I was also never illegal because my father is and always was a US Citizen.
Immigration is fine, it's necessary, and you can't deny it to those who would seek citizenship properly. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS TO STOP. It is the US' #1 problem and will always be unless something is done about it.
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I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.
The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.
I don't care how many walls you build, you aren't going to keep out illegal immigrants until they can earn a living in their own country. Period.
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I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.
The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.
It's not falling on deaf ears. It is impractical, impossible, and not our responsibility so it was ignored.
Hey, maybe it did fall on deaf ears. Is ignoring something deaf ears?
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I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.
The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.
I don't care how many walls you build, you aren't going to keep out illegal immigrants until they can earn a living in their own country.
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Seems to me Germany was able to stop immigration pretty well for a while there.
Most of the Mexicans come across because they can just walk it. Build a big wall and you cut off a lot of them immediately. The cost of a 20 foot brick wall isn't very high compared to the cost of manning the entire stretch of border.
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Seems to me Germany was able to stop immigration pretty well for a while there.
Most of the Mexicans come across because they can just walk it.
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The Great Wall of California, Texas, and Jambon (why have a New Mexico when you're walling off old Mexico).
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The Great Wall of California, Texas, and Jambon (why have a New Mexico when you're walling off old Mexico).
We should make it The Great Wall of Oregon, Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas.
America needs New Mexico.
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No, it needs the land. We don't need a New Mexico. Rename it lest they think they have some sort of claim to it.
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The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.
Oh wait, they have no oil...
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The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.
Oh wait, they have no oil... :D
Then were do we go for steroids? Panama?
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The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.
Oh wait, they have no oil...
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America has all the land it needs. I think that's why European countries are so pist. When they think they are doing well they try to take over other countries to make themselves better. America on the other hand knows that other countries will just be a burden.
So what's up with Puerto Rico?
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So what's up with Puerto Rico?
What's up with Crest coming out with those Whitening Expressions?
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What's up with Crest coming out with those Whitening Expressions?
Moo, moo moo moo, mooooooo.
What the hell are you talking about?
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How about a Moat? Put Alligators in it?
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Don't we have one of those between ourselves and Cuba?
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What I find deeply ironic is that Mexicans are, in many cases, predominantly descended from the original inhabitants of North America yet they're called 'immigrants'. And the true immigrants (mostly descended from white Europeans) tell them to keep out.
Funny world we live in.
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Yeah, makes perfect sense to me that Spanish originated in Mexico.
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It's not falling on deaf ears. It is impractical, impossible, and not our responsibility so it was ignored.
Hey, maybe it did fall on deaf ears. Is ignoring something deaf ears?
It is not impossible. It just takes time. It's what NAFTA and GATT were all about. Opening trade for the benefit of all of us. In the short term, sure, they can provide cheaper labor than we. But over the long hall, as their economy grows, their labor costs would increase as well. Look at Japan. They just recently had to start dealing with labor issues similar to ones that have faced American businesses for years. But it has happened, none-the-less.
It also *is* our responsibility if you want to solve the problem of illegal immigration that you keep whining about.
Do you really want the U.S. to become like East Germany and shoot people who try to cross the border? Is that what you really want? *That* is an idea that should be ignored if I ever heard one.
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It is not impossible. It just takes time. It's what NAFTA and GATT were all about. Opening trade for the benefit of all of us. In the short term, sure, they can provide cheaper labor than we. But over the long hall, as their economy grows, their labor costs would increase as well. Look at Japan. They just recently had to start dealing with labor issues similar to ones that have faced American businesses for years. But it has happened, none-the-less.
So whatever happened to a culture working hard to elevate itself? Somehow it is our job to elevate a people who are not willing to do what is necessary to elevate themselves? I say build the wall and put a giant catapult on our side. If they get caught coming over, onto the catapult they go. For you folks that are soft on crime (yes, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL), we'll point the catapult at the ocean.
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Yeah, makes perfect sense to me that Spanish originated in Mexico.
Eh? Since when are hispanics Spanish? I always understood they were mixed race, although many have some Spanish blood.
That's a bit like saying that everyone who speaks English comes from England.
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No, what it's saying is that just like the Western Europeans wiped out the native people of what is now the US, they wiped out much of the native people of what is now Mexico. The main difference is that the English speakers did it here and the Spanish speakers did it there.
The native peoples of the US and Mexico are pretty much gone.
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I don't think the mexicans deserve punishment. We invited them here. Not officially, but the fact that they have jobs waiting for them is invitation. INS could practically ignore the borders if they would just focus their attention on businesses employing illegals. If the demand for illegal workers dried up, the supply would dry up as well.
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So whatever happened to a culture working hard to elevate itself? Somehow it is our job to elevate a people who are not willing to do what is necessary to elevate themselves? I say build the wall and put a giant catapult on our side. If they get caught coming over, onto the catapult they go. For you folks that are soft on crime (yes, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL), we'll point the catapult at the ocean.
These people are hard workers. It's what they come over here to do. Are there abusers of our welfare system? Sure. But there are many American citizens who also abuse it. I'm not saying we have to do the work for them. I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.
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I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.
It's not good for us to devote a segment of our hard earned resources to elevate someone who will not elevate themselves. It's not like Mexico hasn't had a couple hundred years to do it.
You're right about there being American abusers of the system. They should be weeded out and punished too, but first thing is first: get the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS out of the welfare pool since they have never contributed to it.
I also agree wholeheartedly that the punishment for employing illegal immigrants should be severe.
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You're right about there being American abusers of the system.
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Hold on one minute... I was not going to post anything to this thread. But can't leet things like this go out. Guess what I am not a US citizen I have lived in the US for 14 years (legally). I did not get my residency until recently (green card). I will be another 4 years until I can qualify for citizenship. And I have been contributing to the US economy for all those years.
Before I received my green card. I was working under the H1 visa program. While under H1 I paid social security/unemployment taxes etc. even though as an H1 I did not qualify to benefit from them.
Also It is not true that they (illegal aliens) do not contribute.
Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system. Are you in the welfare system? No, because you work. Your argument does not apply to the scenario I presented.
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actually I did taxes while I was living in the US as a volunteer service. It was supposed to be for low income families to have access to tax preparation but we ended up seeing alot of illegals there as well. The IRS made it very clear that we are to accept ALL returns even if the SS was a complete fraud--seems like they like the tax revenue. Also, the IRS has said on more than one occasion that their information is not shared with INS. If the US was in fact serious about cracking down on illegals, that, to me would be the best place to start. The government can't cry foul on one side saying its a big problem while one very significant branch of the government looks the other way...
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The government can't cry foul on one side saying its a big problem while one very significant branch of the government looks the other way...
It is true. The gov't has no real interest in solving the problem. That is why it exists.
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I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.
It's not good for us to devote a segment of our hard earned resources to elevate someone who will not elevate themselves. It's not like Mexico hasn't had a couple hundred years to do it.
Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence. I'm not for handouts. But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.
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Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence. I'm not for handouts. But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.
Help them how? What would we get in return? If we 'help' them and get nothing in return, that is a handout.
The US doesn't know how to HELP people anyway, they just move in and support/repress them. What would happen is we would end up subsidizing their economy indefinitely. That's not beneficial to us in the long run or the short run.
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Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system.
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actually I did taxes while I was living in the US as a volunteer service.
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Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system. Are you in the welfare system? No, because you work. Your argument does not apply to the scenario I presented.
Sorry but you made blanket statement about noncitizens in the US which is not true.
Point made, I will change that term to make it clearer. I meant illegal immigrants.
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1) They shop at the same stores you do and pay the same sale taxes there as you do
2) A lot of them pay all taxes (using fake SS) and can never file for tax refund
That's not the point. They also breath the same air. The problem is that they aren't here and documented legally. The flow isn't being controlled. The US government, and the Bush Administration isn't following the consitution. The borders are being compromised.
I don't care if these people come in legally. The US has the perfect right to seal the borders doesn't it? It has the right to decide that illegals shouldn't be here doesn't it?
Saying that people being here is okay because they do some good doesn't cut it. There are lots of reasons for them being here, that doesn't mean they should be here does it?
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1) They shop at the same stores you do and pay the same sale taxes there as you do
2) A lot of them pay all taxes (using fake SS) and can never file for tax refund
That's not the point. They also breath the same air.
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Except that one of the main concerns agains illegal immigrants is that they do not contribute.
The people I am talking about are not contributors. Besides, if someone were to pay $2500 in taxes, then show up at a county ER requiring $4500 in medical care that they never pay for, could you make me understand what their contributions are?
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I didn't say that they didn't contribute. They do, but not the same as the rest of the people. They don't have health insurance, they don't have licences, they are illegal, and many live on the run.
They come in and flood the market with cheap labor that changes the equation. Most live in multiple family dwellings. They come and take what money they have and send it out to their families in other countries.
If they weren't here, then the wages would go up for the labor. The prices would be adjusted, and the hospitals wouldn't have to bear the costs for people without the slightest hint of insurance.
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They are here illegally they did brake the law in order to get in the US. But they are contributing members of society. And you may not like it but your food (and other thing are cheaper because of their labor.
They contribute a lot more to our society too.
Higher taxes, unemployment, and crime.
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11 million
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050321/D88VEAMO0.html
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If they weren't here, then the wages would go up for the labor. The prices would be adjusted, and the hospitals wouldn't have to bear the costs for people without the slightest hint of insurance.
I don't buy this argument.
The assumption is that labor salries are cheap because there are people willing to do the work for cheap. The reality is labor salaries are cheap because companies are trying to compete with other companies (and the rest of the world).
Americans want cheap electronics,clothing, etc. But guess what if you pay a decent salarie for those products then the prices of those products go up. And unfortunatly no Buy American campain i going to change that.
Funny thing an American Company in my home town (in Mexico) recently closed shop (laying off thousands) because labor was cheaper by 25 cnts an hour in china.
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I don't buy this argument.
The assumption is that labor salries are cheap because there are people willing to do the work for cheap. The reality is labor salaries are cheap because companies are trying to compete with other companies
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Funny thing an American Company in my home town (in Mexico) recently closed shop (laying off thousands) because labor was cheaper by 25 cnts an hour in china.
You don't understand this argument.
No one is going to email their lawn to China have the Chinese cut it, then email it back to them.
No one is going to order a cheese burger from a fast food place in China and wait for it to be Fed Exed to their house.
We are not talking about jobs that can be outsourced.
Illegals are here doing jobs that legals could should be doing.
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Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence. I'm not for handouts. But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.
Help them how? What would we get in return? If we 'help' them and get nothing in return, that is a handout.
The US doesn't know how to HELP people anyway, they just move in and support/repress them. What would happen is we would end up subsidizing their economy indefinitely. That's not beneficial to us in the long run or the short run.
What we would get in return is exactly what you want. A lot fewer illegal immigrants!
The help I'm referring to is free trade. Free exchange of goods and services. And, yes, if need be, monetary help in building infrastructure. It's an investment that would pay off in the long run. If the population of Mexico had a median income similar to that of the U.S. or other developed nations, the Mexican consumer would have money to buy products made in the U.S. And without restrictions on trade, they would be free to do so. What I'm talking about here takes *years*, but it could happen if the people in charge of both nations would let it. I know they won't, but it *would* solve the problem if they did.
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You don't understand this argument.
No one is going to email their lawn to China have the Chinese cut it, then email it back to them.
No one is going to order a cheese burger from a fast food place in China and wait for it to be Fed Exed to their house.
We are not talking about jobs that can be outsourced.
Illegals are here doing jobs that legals could should be doing.
Ohhh!. You mean the high paying jobs like washing dishes, picking crops, taking care of children (nannys)?
Or you maybe you mean the contruction jobs?
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The help I'm referring to is free trade.
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How about a Moat?
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The help I'm referring to is free trade. Free exchange of goods and services.
Free trade... of what, exactly? What does Mexico have that we want? NAFTA is a sham. It's as one sided as an agreement has ever been. NAFTA is the help you're saying we should give them. They already have it. How have they improved with our help?
You keep saying "if we make them rich they won't need to come here to work". Sure, but they should make themselves rich. It's not up to me to pay for people in Mexico. It's hard enough to pay for the Mexicans that are here illegally, now you want me to pay for the ones who weren't even THAT enterprising?
Look, I don't really have a problem with the people who come here illegally and work. They are a drain, yes, but they're doing what the system will allow to improve their lot. I can respect that. That doesn't change the fact that they ARE a drain and they should NOT be here without the proper authorizations. My biggest problem is with the government's total lack of movement on securing the borders and allowing only those immigrants who want to follow legal procedures (i.e. ask permission, knock on the door, like a proper guest).
NAFTA and GATT are just the current agreements that are in place. They aren't perfect, no. They are just beginnings. They are just examples. They don't have to stay in place as they are forever. We should work to make them better and more effective. Just because what is in place now isn't perfect, doesn't mean the idea behind it is a bad one.
And, again, I'm not asking you to make people in Mexico rich (which is *not* what I said, BTW). I do want them to make their economy better, but if we can help them do that, and it will benefit us as well as them in the long run, we should do it. I'm not talking about some one sided thing here. Get that thought out of your head! I'm a conservative Republican. I don't believe in tax and spend. But I'm talking about a long term program that could benefit all of us.
Also, I do wish that we would secure our borders better, but I'm not for building a wall and catapulting people back over the border. That's a tad extreme for me.
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HEY! Despite all the complex social analysis of the situation going on here, the answer has been staring you in the face all along. Just make them privatise their social security! 8)
Free trade... of what, exactly? What does Mexico have that we want?
Cheap labour apparently. ;)
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Americans want cheap electronics,clothing, etc. But guess what if you pay a decent salarie for those products then the prices of those products go up. And unfortunatly no Buy American campain i going to change that.
Yeah, you didn't get the point. You make a good one. I understand and respect yours, but mine is this:
1) Seal the border with whatever means necessary. Army, Navy, Airforce, Marines, Robocop, whatever.
2) Enforce the existing immigration laws and deport illegals
3) Fine and punish those who hire illegals wherever and whomever they are.
4) Open the borders to workers for a fixed time limit, controlled and legal. If they want to become citizens and they follow the rules, fine. If they break the law, toss them out like a houseguest that pees on the carpet.
If there was no labor at the price offered, then the offer has to go up doesn't it?
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NAFTA and GATT are just the current agreements that are in place.
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Yeah, you didn't get the point. You make a good one.
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That is the tricky part if the price offered goes up then so do the prices of the goods (and/or services) that are made. And this cascades all over the place.
If instead of $5.00 an hour for a dish washer a restaurant now has to pay $10.00 (plus benefits) then who do you think will pay for this difference? Everything is conected to everything else.
lets go back to crop picking. If you have to go from $5.00 to $100 (plus benefits) for a crew to pick up crops. Then you have to sell your crops for much more than you had to before. And then the super markets. Have the choice of buying a product from you at a very high price. Or importing from some other country. at a much cheaper price. And finally for the end buyer instead of spending $2.00 a weeks now he has to pay $3.00 a week on produce.
You don't see this happening, but you want us to boost up MEXICO'S economy? How about we take that money we would have wasted in Mexico and use it to subsidize this process? I'd be a lot more inclined to vote for that than I ever would to send a dollar to boost the economy of another country.
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What would be the proper term? Hispanic, or Latin American? I ask, because "mexican" is used to refer to a TON of people, and it makes it seem like the problem is simply a problem with Mexico. Now, while the link fredster points to says that indeed that IS a majority of the problem, if you read a touch further in there, if the figures are correct, the problem is demonstrated to be 81% of the illegal - that's illegal, against the law, for those of you following along at home - immigration problem is......and that's where my question comes in.
Is the problem 81% Latin American, or 81% Hispanic?
I know the ACTUAL problem is the hiring of illegal immigrants, but that's not what I'm asking.
Oh, and for the record, the white illegal immigrants are out there, although clearly demonstrated to be in the minority. Of the white illegal immigrants that I've run across (about 2 dozen), they have been from Czechoslovakia (about 3/4ths) and Serbia (the rest).
Chad is correct, when the government decides to do something about it is when the problem will subside. I called the INS to report the guy I hired, and told them I would keep him employed for the next day, two days, or week until they could send someone to investigate. I also told them he had been caught by one of my shift managers taking the photos of folks for illegal ID's and also selling that ID the next day - odd reasoning by the guy when confronted, but the response was anything BUT thankful. I had to go through MANY hoops on MY END :o for them to even consider sending someone out, otherwise I could fax them the paperwork and they'd investigate that way ::)
It opened my eyes to the fact that they could care less about the problem. Until they change the wording on the I-9 form as well, employers will ALWAYS have a loophole to plead their innocence. "I certify that the documents presented to me are, to the best of my knowledge, legal and valid."
Honest, judge, the fake worker's permit looked real to me!
Lokki, not only have you seemed to try to do things the correct way, you took an active role in making sure you did them.
It's why people are so angry about the ILLEGAL immigration problem. If there are folks like you doing things properly, then we expect a MUCH larger percent of people to do so, as well. It's the criminal violation of the immigration process that has people upset, and the percieved lack of action against those who would violate our laws while benefitting from doing so.
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Re-reading my post, I didn't tell of the outcome.
After it became apparent no one cared (I figured two weeks was enough for some crack INS agent to stop in and find out what's up), I called the cops, told them what was going on, and they took him in for questioning. I never saw or heard from the guy again.
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My understanding is that the word hispanic refers to any Spanish speaking person who originates from central or south America. There are probably more sophisticated definitions but I think that's the gist of it. I've never understood why such a diverse group of people are all grouped together under a single label.
I guess a lot of the illegal hispanic immigrants get called 'Mexican' because they have to travel through Mexico to get to the States.
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Hispanic, at least here, also refers to people from Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, any of those Spanish speaking countries as well.
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Hispanic, at least here, also refers to people from Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, any of those Spanish speaking countries as well.
I asumme that we are all aware the Perto Rico is part of the United States. And therefore puerto rican's are not illegal immigrants.
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I asumme that we are all aware the Perto Rico is part of the United States. And therefore puerto rican's are not illegal immigrants.
I'm not sure that is 100% correct. They don't have all of the legal rights of a normal citizen in terms of landing and immigrating, that much I know for sure.
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I do want them to make their economy better, but if we can help them do that, and it will benefit us as well as them in the long run, we should do it.
You've said this about 5 times now but have yet to give any plausible ways for helping Mexico's economy to benefit us. Raising their per capita income enough that they don't want to come here will cost us more than it helps our immigration problem. What do we do then, build them a health care system so that they don't come here to see our doctors? Build them high schools so they don't come here and fill ours? If they were such an enterprising people they would build their own. Many other countries have.
I've given a few ways; *you* just disagree with them, which is fine. Mexico is not an empty box. They have natural resources. A large part of their problem has been that a very few people have all the money, and the rest are dirt poor. There is indeed only so much we can do to help them help themselves. And make no mistake, *that's* what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about just throwing money at the issue. Especially government money. Private businesses should invest in Mexico. Wal-mart has, for example. They employ more people in Mexico than any other private company. There, that's another example, but you will say it isn't feasible. ::)
If the government steps up and enforces our immigration laws like a lot of you are suggesting, yes, they can *reduce* the symptoms. But until the problem is solved, i.e. until the average Mexican worker can make any kind of living in their own country, they will find a way to get over here and work, no matter what our government does. The will to survive and to try to provide a better life for one's family is too strong to deny.
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Wal-mart has, for example. They employ more people in Mexico than any private company. There, that's another example, but you will say it isn't feasible. ::)
Not really... I say that is feasable because it already exists.
If the government steps up and enforces our immigration laws like a lot of you are suggesting, yes, they can *reduce* the symptoms. But until the problem is solved, i.e. until the average Mexican worker can make any kind of living in their own country, they will find a way to get over here and work, no matter what our government does. The will to survive and to try to provide a better life for one's family is too strong to deny.
If the immigration laws were enforced... if the US companies that employ the illegals were approrpiately punished... if crossing the border were more difficult than crossing the street... there would be a smaller amount of illegals such that we could deal with them in a more humane manner. We could help them go through proper channels to become citizens or we could make them go home by means better than catapult. As it is, what we have is not a problem, it's an infestation, and unfortunately the first thing you do with an infestation is spray it with pesticide to reduce the problem to a more manageable level.
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I think Puerto ricans have the best of both worlds.
They can legally work in the USA. But don't have to pay taxes.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97184,00.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rq.html
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I don't see the Mexicans as being essentially any different to the (mainly white european) settlers who have colonised North America over the past few hundred years. They are just people trying to create a better life for themselves.
I'm sure from the perspective of the native americans, the white settlers were considered to be just as 'illegal' as the Mexicans are considered to be today.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that immigration has to be tightly controlled. I can't think of any historical example where mass uncontrolled immigration has benefitted the host population. But where I part company is when people start to demonise illegal immigrants as being criminals and/or scroungers when they are often simply poor, desperate people.
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We understand that they are poor. We understand that they are trying to improve their lives. I actually don't hate them because I respect that they are taking initiative. That doesn't change the fact that they are circumventing our laws and draining our resources without giving back nearly what they take. Hospitals are failing, schools are collapsing, because of the influx of people who are not legally here.
If they were coming in legally, hell I'll write them a sign and hold it at the border saying nice to meet you. I came in that way. But we cannot sustain this type of drain. It is killing our infrastructure.
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I'm sure from the perspective of the native americans, the white settlers were considered to be just as 'illegal' as the Mexicans are considered to be today.
Great example, look at what the whites did to them and their land.
I don't want a bunch of Mexicans telling me to leave my home and live on a European Reservation.
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If you want to join our company, do a Google search for the word
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No doubt. People who don't come to a complete stop before their front bumper passes the stop sign are criminals. You are supposed to come to a complete stop before the stop sign, and only then are you allowed to roll up to the end of the street to check for traffic.
Spitting on the sidewalk in many cities makes you a criminal.
People who smoke and throw their cig. butts out the car window are criminals (who should be dealt with in my opinion -- but not in the same way you deal with an armed robber or a terrorist or a child molester).
Oh yeah.....come to think of it, people who own full sets of ROMS, or even any ROMS for which they do not own the boards for are......get ready for it.......here it comes.............criminals.
Gimme a break.
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Spitting on the sidewalk in many cities makes you a criminal.
People who molest childeren are also criminals.
What's your point?
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::)
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Jeez guys have some compasion, most child molesters are just lonely men in need of some individualized attention.
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Fox news must have just hired a web guy who lost his job to an illegal.
Because here's another story:
Mexican State Issues 'How To' on Border Jumping (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151207,00.html)