Illegal Immigration

[DrewKaree]

The focus is on the ILLEGAL part of the description.

To take a page from Peale, discuss:

http://www.foxnews.com

I know it's from Fox, but you'll just have to get over it, or find your own stinking links.

[monkeybomb]

I live in LA and I teach in the inner city, many of my students are probably illegal and filling my VERY expensive special ed classrooms.  I love these children and give them everything I've got on a daily basis, but it sucks when you can't go to half the city you live in because your spanish isn't good enough.  It is a problem that should be addressed but there isn't a solution involving the supply side of a problem.


This is a supply and demand issue.  There is a supply of cheap labor in rural Mexico. 

There is a demand for cheap here (well under the LEGAL minimmun wage)

End demand and end supply.   Simple

From the supply side there is always going to be someone who will fill it, wheather it's a drug dealer, or a prostitute.  Supply will always show up.  If someone has an example of a problem soved by attacking supply I'd like to hear it.


Illegal Immigration is an easy problem to solve.  In fact Reagan gave us the solution back in 80's.  The solution had 2 parts:

1.  Leagalize those who were already here

and like it or not that happened

2.  Anyone hiring Illegal immigrants would be subject to a major fine and could have HALF of their assets siezed.

NEVER HAPPENED   not once

No jobs = why come

[JCL]

Thank goodness that Bush has a plan to stop illegal immigration -- by making it legal!

What's up with that anyways? Do the republicans have any real principles? Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case). Not related to making government smaller or less intrusive. And on and on.

What do the republicans really stand for anyways?

[DrewKaree]

Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).

I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue.  It might do you well to do some more reading into it.  While it probably won't change your views, at least you'd understand the concept behind why the case is important, and it certainly isn't because of a sanctity of marriage point.

[JCL]

Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).

I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue.

[rchadd]

Sounds like we got similar issues over here in the UK with people from every nationality under the sun now claiming asylum and then expecting the British tax payer to provide them with accomodation, social security and free health service. All this whilst our own pensioners exist on a pittance from the state!

Mr Blair & his chronies refuse to do anything about it and would if they could simply open the doors and let anybody into the country in the interest of the "economy" (cheap labor). Also I assume everybody who arrives would be issued with their own Labour Party membership card by Tony.

[daywane]

Yes we have them here in Ky also.
The state let the farmers ship them in because we Americans refused to work that hard for $100.00 a week and no benefits.

This is a load of dung. We as a country set the rules. You do not like a product or the price , you no buy! very simple. Industry will change or go out of business.
Farmers ...Pay a good wage or go out of business. Do not tell me this line of crap about farmers having it so hard.  look at the $$$$$$$ tractors the big fat slob is sitting in.

as far as the brain dead girl. what in the heck is congress doing? They have no right in this case. Now we make up laws as we go. OK but still congress has no rights doing it. We have other government for that.
its like them talking to baseball...?
I got one thing to say to Washington .. Democrats and republicans alike
OK 2 things ... I forgot about the 2ND pic

[fredster]

The Schiavo case is a different thread.

As far as supply and demand goes for cheap labor, I agree.  But to me it doesn't matter.  I don't believe for a second that Americans won't do these jobs.  I believe they won't do the jobs for the pay.  Mexicans are screwing it up for the USA.  Simple as that.

The pay would have to change to get and hold American Citizens. It would change what we pay for food, and that hits a lot of people.  It would also raise the costs for all sorts of goods, but they likely need adjustment anyway.

Mexicans are replacing Americans on a lot fronts and putting American small business out of business.  Take a look at Bricklayers, contractors, and landscapers. If any of you watch HGTV you can see it.  Who is doing all the work for the landscapers?  Yep, mexicans.

I have worked in factories that make metal parts for years. I've started to see the Americans replaced by Mexicans in the harder hand work jobs, and it upsets me.  These Mexicans are really good people, they are hard working, they don't complain, and they work steady.  But when I was younger I did those jobs too.  I worked for that pay.

I think they should build the wall up like they did in Israel.  I think that we can have Mexicans in here if we know who they are and they go through the proper legal channels, whatever that may be.  I also think they should fine any company that hires them. How hard could that be?  All they would have to do is double the INS agents, start driving busses up to the  companies with warrants and check all the green cards, city by city, factory by factory until the employers get the idea.

The problem is that the Dems want the vote and the Republicans want the vote and labor. They site all this crap about how hard working these people are, but in the end they lower the wage scale for everybody, suck up the resources for Americans, and leave.  I don't like it.

Legal immigration is fine with me.  More power to people who want to live in the USA, legally.  But jumping the fence and leaving is not an option.

Find a candidate that says we'll lock up the border or even reduce the flow and I'll back him 100%.  Democrat, Republican, or Druid, I'm with him (or her).

[RacerX]

This all boils down to the minimum wage.  Americans won't do these jobs because they won't work for less than the minimum wage.  And why should they?  The don't have to.  But that leaves the door open for illegal workers who *will* work for less than the minimum wage.  If the labor market were left to determine the cost of labor instead of the minimum wage artificially raising it, this issue would certainly not be as big as it is.

Some politicians will argue that people can't survive on any less.  But the bottom line is that if you didn't need that job, you wouldn't do it.  Any amount of money is better than no money at all.  And as a worker gains experience, their wages will increase.  If their current company doesn't pay them more, then another one will if the laborer's skills are valuable enough to them.

[monkeybomb]

Frester you're dead on with going business by business.  That would end it, and fast.  I also agree that Americans would do the jobs if there  was a real paycheck.

As for the min. wage, there are people that are willing to do all the manual labor out of desperation for near nothing and they aren't Americans.  Geting rid of the wage rules would just make lots of poor people a lot poorer.  That leads to BIG social problems.  Lazie faire didn't work for most Americans 120 years ago and it isn't about to start now. 

[fredster]

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.  If there was a real minimum wage it would be around $11 an hour. 

I don't know where you guys live, but it doens't take a genuis to figure out that rent at it's cheapest is about $300 a month.  If you are going to have a car and all the tags, insurance, and care it's going to cost you at least $200 a month, and for gas, food, and clothes and utilities you add another 400 or 500 a month.  With taxes and all, it's way over 5.50 an hour if you plan to do anything besides get up, work, and sleep.

My point is that if an employer can't find people to work at a certain wage, he has to raise it. He raises his prices to his customer.  If they won't pay, he has to find better ways of doing his business.  If that doesn't work, he goes out of business.

That's "Lazie faire" in it's pure form. But we have given life support to companies that shouldn't be here because of this.

First, get the employers.  Adjust the wages to where they need to be.  I believe that the mexicans are one of the reasons we have a CEO making $100,000,000 and an employee making $10000.  That Big $ salary is being proped up by the mexicans.  And it isn't fair to the rest because the balance of wages is way out of kilter.

Get rid of the low cost labor and the mix changes.  It means higher prices in some things and possibly the death of dinosaur businesses that shouldn't be operating anyway. 

Again, I don't have a thing against legal immigration.  That's fine. But the worst thing is that these people break the law by comming here in the first place. They break laws while they are here by identity fraud.  They cause neighbor hoods to collapse by the influx of these illegals.  If anything happens and they can't hold a job (like they get hurt, etc) then there are big problems.  Lots of people with no money also equals crime.  Drugs are a way of making money, and they are bringing them in also.

What's the % of illegals in jails now?  It should be 0, but what is it? 20% 30%, what?

It's not fair to them, but they are so despirate to make more than $10 a year in Mexico they will cut their own lives short for a chance at the big money. And for the people who do come here legally and follow the rules it's just not fair.

[Grasshopper]

OK, another perspective from the UK.

First of all, I agree with most of what's been said so far.

The main reason for allowing immigration is essentially altruistic i.e. to allow people from other countries to escape from poverty and/or political repression. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, after all we have screwed the third world for hundreds of years, and it's about time we gave something back. But immigration has to be tightly controlled to maintain social cohesion, and to protect the environment and infrastructure.

The problem is that the pro-immigration lobby don't present their case in these terms. Instead we get a load of BS about how the economy would collapse without immigration.

The two biggest lies are that immigration is necessary to counteract the economic effects of an ageing population and to deal with the mysterious 'skills shortage'.

The only sustainable way to deal with an ageing population is to raise the retirement age. No one ever seems to ask what happens when the immigrants themselves retire. All immigration does is pospone the problem and potentially make it worse for the next generation.

What irritates me even more is business leaders bleating on about the so called 'skills shortage'. In a properly functioning market economy a skills shortage should be self-correcting.

Basically far too many companies are perfectly happy to pay preposterous salaries to their top executives, but don't want to pay the market rate for skilled jobs lower down the corporate ladder, or to pay for in-house training. It's blatant hypocrisy. If they paid the market rate then potential employees would be prepared to invest in getting the necessary skills for themselves.

[tommy]

Certainly not principles relating to the sanctity of marriage (Schiavo case).

I find it astonishing that you see that case as a sanctity of marriage issue.

[RayB]

One point I want to make to no one in particular. There are many more illegals than just "the Mexicans". They are just more visible. It's not right to target them. If only you kne how many white people around you... perhaps the waiter you just served you, or heck maybe even the guy in the next cubicle who does the same job you do. Illegals come from all countries and come in all colors. But one thing I do know, is that not too many people who come from cushy middle class Californian cities would want to be out in the fields picking vegetables in 90' heat.

[fredster]

Yep, RayB, but they are high on the list okay?

It's not right to target them.

Sure it is. Let's do a pareto diagram and go from #1 to #10.  Let's see, who's number one? AH, people from Mexico!

If only you kne how many white people around you... perhaps the waiter you just served you, or heck maybe even the guy in the next cubicle who does the same job you do.

Nope. Not a one. Not a single one here. What white guys immigrate here illegally? And if they do, what country do they come in from? Canada or Mexico? 

But one thing I do know, is that not too many people who come from cushy middle class Californian cities would want to be out in the fields picking vegetables in 90' heat.

Then they have a job don't they.  But there are a lot of people who don't have jobs.  I don't mind LEGAL immigration, worker passes, etc.  It's when they jump the fence and just come in that I take exception to.

If no one harvested the crops, they would find a way to up the pay or we'd do without wouldn't we?  We are enabling this situation by justifying it.  We have made up production by technology.  We'd figure a better way. I grew up on a farm.  Back in those days they have very few migrant workers. There were lots of Americans that did the seasonal work.

Build the wall, stop the flow of illegals from the southern border, and then we can begin to manage the situation. I'm talking about Control, not exclusion.

[RacerX]

My point is that if an employer can't find people to work at a certain wage, he has to raise it. He raises his prices to his customer.  If they won't pay, he has to find better ways of doing his business.  If that doesn't work, he goes out of business.

That is exactly right.  But there *are* people willing to work for less than minimum wage.  They may not be here legally, but the fact is that they are here, and you aren't going to stop them.

The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.

As for not being able to live off of the minimum wage or lower, that's not what these jobs are there for really.  They are entry level, low skilled jobs.  A worker wouldn't stay in one of these jobs forever.  They would move up as they gained experience.  You guys talk like you expect someone to live their whole life working a minimum wage job and be able to live off of the salary.  That just doesn't happen in real life if the worker is of any quality.

[ChadTower]

Ack, it's laissez faire, that is driving me nuts. 

Forget Israel's wall.  It's not enough.  Emulate China's wall.  Use the illegals to build the damn thing, if they die in the process emtomb them in it, and then use it to keep them out.  If they want to come legally they can use the security door.

My mother used to work in the welfare system here in MA.  I used to sit in her office after school until she finished her day a couple of times a week.  I saw the things people do to defraud the welfare system.  Yes, there were citizens defrauding the system too, but 90% of the offenders were illegals (and nearly all hispanic in our area).  I'm talking about filing benefits for nonexistant kids, pretending adamantly to not speak English, packing 15 people into a one bedroom apartment, all of them receiving a benefit of the full cost of rent.  The system was so overloaded that by the time someone came around to check, as soon as the notices arrived, the people would disappear back to Puerto Rico.  They had no intention of staying, contributing, or doing anything positive.  This isn't even counting the health care costs for when they show up at the ER or the cost of educating the kids in public schools.

I graduated from Salem (MA) High School.  At least a quarter of my class didn't graduate and didn't intend to graduate.  They were in school because it was a requrement in order to receive welfare benefits if they were under 18.  I'd say another 20-30% of those particular students were obviously at least 20.  We had 11th graders who looked like Lando Calrissian.  The whole thing was weighing down the school so badly that those who truly wanted an education couldn't get one because it simply wasn't there to be had.  My wife (obviously not at the time) graduated with me and she used to cry at night sometimes because she wanted to get into a good college, wanted to get a real education but the teachers were 70 years old, the books were falling apart, and even those teachers who tried to teach a class spent more time trying to maintain order than teaching.  By the time she got to a University she had to take remedial classes in math just to get to basic algebraic skills and she is very intelligent person. 

Now, I realize I say all of this as an immigrant myself, but I have always done everything I humanly could to be a productive member of society.  I was also never illegal because my father is and always was a US Citizen.

Immigration is fine, it's necessary, and you can't deny it to those who would seek citizenship properly.  ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS TO STOP.  It is the US' #1 problem and will always be unless something is done about it. 

[RacerX]

I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.

The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.

I don't care how many walls you build, you aren't going to keep out illegal immigrants until they can earn a living in their own country.  Period.

[ChadTower]

I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.

The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.

It's not falling on deaf ears.  It is impractical, impossible, and not our responsibility so it was ignored.

Hey, maybe it did fall on deaf ears.  Is ignoring something deaf ears? 

[daywane]

I'll repeat myself because it appears to be falling on deaf ears.

The only true way to end it is to grow the economies of underdeveloped nations to the point where these people can stay in their own homeland and work.

I don't care how many walls you build, you aren't going to keep out illegal immigrants until they can earn a living in their own country.

[ChadTower]

Seems to me Germany was able to stop immigration pretty well for a while there.

Most of the Mexicans come across because they can just walk it.  Build a big wall and you cut off a lot of them immediately.  The cost of a 20 foot brick wall isn't very high compared to the cost of manning the entire stretch of border.

[GGKoul]

Seems to me Germany was able to stop immigration pretty well for a while there.

Most of the Mexicans come across because they can just walk it.

[ChadTower]

The Great Wall of California, Texas, and Jambon (why have a New Mexico when you're walling off old Mexico).

[Dartful Dodger]

The Great Wall of California, Texas, and Jambon (why have a New Mexico when you're walling off old Mexico).

We should make it The Great Wall of Oregon, Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas.

America needs New Mexico.

[ChadTower]

No, it needs the land.  We don't need a New Mexico.  Rename it lest they think they have some sort of claim to it.

[GGKoul]

The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.

Oh wait, they have no oil...

[ChadTower]

The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.

Oh wait, they have no oil... 

Then were do we go for steroids?  Panama?

[Dartful Dodger]

The US should just take over Mexico and make it the 51st state.

Oh wait, they have no oil...

[ChadTower]

America has all the land it needs.  I think that's why European countries are so pist.  When they think they are doing well they try to take over other countries to make themselves better.  America on the other hand knows that other countries will just be a burden.

So what's up with Puerto Rico?

[Dartful Dodger]

So what's up with Puerto Rico?

What's up with Crest coming out with those Whitening Expressions?

[ChadTower]

What's up with Crest coming out with those Whitening Expressions?

Moo, moo moo moo, mooooooo.

What the hell are you talking about?

[fredster]

How about a Moat?  Put Alligators in it?

[ChadTower]

Don't we have one of those between ourselves and Cuba?

[Grasshopper]

What I find deeply ironic is that Mexicans are, in many cases, predominantly descended from the original inhabitants of North America yet they're called 'immigrants'. And the true immigrants (mostly descended from white Europeans) tell them to keep out.

Funny world we live in.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, makes perfect sense to me that Spanish originated in Mexico.

[RacerX]

It's not falling on deaf ears.  It is impractical, impossible, and not our responsibility so it was ignored.

Hey, maybe it did fall on deaf ears.  Is ignoring something deaf ears? 

It is not impossible.  It just takes time.  It's what NAFTA and GATT were all about.  Opening trade for the benefit of all of us.  In the short term, sure, they can provide cheaper labor than we.  But over the long hall, as their economy grows, their labor costs would increase as well.  Look at Japan.  They just recently had to start dealing with labor issues similar to ones that have faced American businesses for years.  But it has happened, none-the-less.

It also *is* our responsibility if you want to solve the problem of illegal immigration that you keep whining about.

Do you really want the U.S. to become like East Germany and shoot people who try to cross the border?  Is that what you really want?  *That* is an idea that should be ignored if I ever heard one.

[ChadTower]

It is not impossible.  It just takes time.  It's what NAFTA and GATT were all about.  Opening trade for the benefit of all of us.  In the short term, sure, they can provide cheaper labor than we.  But over the long hall, as their economy grows, their labor costs would increase as well.  Look at Japan.  They just recently had to start dealing with labor issues similar to ones that have faced American businesses for years.  But it has happened, none-the-less.

So whatever happened to a culture working hard to elevate itself?  Somehow it is our job to elevate a people who are not willing to do what is necessary to elevate themselves?  I say build the wall and put a giant catapult on our side.  If they get caught coming over, onto the catapult they go.  For you folks that are soft on crime (yes, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL), we'll point the catapult at the ocean.

[Grasshopper]

Yeah, makes perfect sense to me that Spanish originated in Mexico.

Eh? Since when are hispanics Spanish? I always understood they were mixed race, although many have some Spanish blood.

That's a bit like saying that everyone who speaks English comes from England.

[ChadTower]

No, what it's saying is that just like the Western Europeans wiped out the native people of what is now the US, they wiped out much of the native people of what is now Mexico.  The main difference is that the English speakers did it here and the Spanish speakers did it there.

The native peoples of the US and Mexico are pretty much gone.

[shmokes]

I don't think the mexicans deserve punishment.  We invited them here.  Not officially, but the fact that they have jobs waiting for them is invitation.  INS could practically ignore the borders if they would just focus their attention on businesses employing illegals.  If the demand for illegal workers dried up, the supply would dry up as well.