Illegal Immigration

[RacerX]

So whatever happened to a culture working hard to elevate itself?  Somehow it is our job to elevate a people who are not willing to do what is necessary to elevate themselves?  I say build the wall and put a giant catapult on our side.  If they get caught coming over, onto the catapult they go.  For you folks that are soft on crime (yes, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL), we'll point the catapult at the ocean.

These people are hard workers.  It's what they come over here to do.  Are there abusers of our welfare system?  Sure.  But there are many American citizens who also abuse it.  I'm not saying we have to do the work for them.  I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.

[ChadTower]

I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.

It's not good for us to devote a segment of our hard earned resources to elevate someone who will not elevate themselves.  It's not like Mexico hasn't had a couple hundred years to do it.

You're right about there being American abusers of the system.  They should be weeded out and punished too, but first thing is first:  get the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS out of the welfare pool since they have never contributed to it.

I also agree wholeheartedly that the punishment for employing illegal immigrants should be severe.

[lokki]

You're right about there being American abusers of the system.

[ChadTower]

Hold on one minute... I was not going to post anything to this thread. But can't leet things like this go out. Guess what I am not a US citizen I have lived in the US for 14 years (legally). I did not get my residency until recently (green card). I will be another 4 years until I can qualify for citizenship. And I have been contributing to the US economy for all those years.

Before I received my green card. I was working under the H1 visa program. While under H1 I paid social security/unemployment taxes etc. even though as an H1 I did not qualify to benefit from them.

Also It is not true that they (illegal aliens) do not contribute.

Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system.  Are you in the welfare system?  No, because you work.  Your argument does not apply to the scenario I presented.

[menace]

actually I did taxes while I was living in the US as a volunteer service.  It was supposed to be for low income families to have access to tax preparation but we ended up seeing alot of illegals there as well.  The IRS made it very clear that we are to accept ALL returns even if the SS was a complete fraud--seems like they like the tax revenue.  Also, the IRS has said on more than one occasion that their information is not shared with INS.  If the US was in fact serious about cracking down on illegals, that, to me would be the best place to start.  The government can't cry foul on one side saying its a big problem while one very significant branch of the government looks the other way...

[ChadTower]

The government can't cry foul on one side saying its a big problem while one very significant branch of the government looks the other way...

It is true.   The gov't has no real interest in solving the problem.  That is why it exists.

[RacerX]

I'm saying if we can help them develop their economies, it will be good for us all.

It's not good for us to devote a segment of our hard earned resources to elevate someone who will not elevate themselves.  It's not like Mexico hasn't had a couple hundred years to do it.

Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence.  I'm not for handouts.  But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.

[ChadTower]

Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence.  I'm not for handouts.  But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.

Help them how?  What would we get in return?  If we 'help' them and get nothing in return, that is a handout.

The US doesn't know how to HELP people anyway, they just move in and support/repress them.  What would happen is we would end up subsidizing their economy indefinitely.  That's not beneficial to us in the long run or the short run.

[lokki]

Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system.

[lokki]

actually I did taxes while I was living in the US as a volunteer service.

[ChadTower]

Uh, we're talking about the illegal aliens that are in the welfare system.  Are you in the welfare system?  No, because you work.  Your argument does not apply to the scenario I presented.

Sorry but you made blanket statement about noncitizens in the US which is not true.

Point made, I will change that term to make it clearer.  I meant illegal immigrants.

[fredster]

1) They shop at the same stores you do and pay the same sale taxes there as you do
2) A lot of them pay all taxes (using fake SS) and can never file for tax refund

That's not the point. They also breath the same air.  The problem is that they aren't here and documented legally.  The flow isn't being controlled. The US government, and the Bush Administration isn't following the consitution.  The borders are being compromised.

I don't care if these people come in legally.  The US has the perfect right to seal the borders doesn't it?  It has the right to decide that illegals shouldn't be here doesn't it?

Saying that people being here is okay because they do some good doesn't cut it. There are lots of reasons for them being here, that doesn't mean they should be here does it?

[lokki]

1) They shop at the same stores you do and pay the same sale taxes there as you do
2) A lot of them pay all taxes (using fake SS) and can never file for tax refund

That's not the point. They also breath the same air.

[ChadTower]

Except that one of the main concerns agains illegal immigrants is that they do not contribute.

The people I am talking about are not contributors.  Besides, if someone were to pay $2500 in taxes, then show up at a county ER requiring $4500 in medical care that they never pay for, could you make me understand what their contributions are?

[fredster]

I didn't say that they didn't contribute. They do, but not the same as the rest of the people.  They don't have health insurance, they don't have licences, they are illegal, and many live on the run.

They come in and flood the market with cheap labor that changes the equation.  Most live in multiple family dwellings.  They come and take what money they have and send it out to their families in other countries.

If they weren't here, then the wages would go up for the labor. The prices would be adjusted, and the hospitals wouldn't have to bear the costs for people without the slightest hint of insurance.

[Dartful Dodger]

They are here illegally they did brake the law in order to get in the US. But they are contributing members of society.  And you may not like it but your food (and other thing are cheaper because of their labor.

They contribute a lot more to our society too.

Higher taxes, unemployment, and crime.

[fredster]

11 million
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050321/D88VEAMO0.html

[lokki]

If they weren't here, then the wages would go up for the labor. The prices would be adjusted, and the hospitals wouldn't have to bear the costs for people without the slightest hint of insurance.

I don't buy this argument.
The assumption is that labor salries are cheap because there are people willing to do the work for cheap. The reality is labor salaries are cheap because companies are trying to compete with other companies (and the rest of the world).
Americans want cheap electronics,clothing, etc. But guess what if you pay a decent salarie for those products then the prices of those products go up. And unfortunatly no Buy American campain i going to change that.

Funny thing an American Company in my home town (in Mexico) recently closed shop (laying off thousands) because labor was cheaper by 25 cnts an hour in china.

[Dartful Dodger]

I don't buy this argument.
The assumption is that labor salries are cheap because there are people willing to do the work for cheap. The reality is labor salaries are cheap because companies are trying to compete with other companies
.....
Funny thing an American Company in my home town (in Mexico) recently closed shop (laying off thousands) because labor was cheaper by 25 cnts an hour in china.

You don't understand this argument.

No one is going to email their lawn to China have the Chinese cut it, then email it back to them.

No one is going to order a cheese burger from a fast food place in China and wait for it to be Fed Exed to their house.

We are not talking about jobs that can be outsourced.

Illegals are here doing jobs that legals could should be doing.

[RacerX]

Apparently you didn't see the word "help" in my sentence.  I'm not for handouts.  But I am for helping them elevate themselves if they need the help because it will be good for us in the long run.

Help them how?  What would we get in return?  If we 'help' them and get nothing in return, that is a handout.

The US doesn't know how to HELP people anyway, they just move in and support/repress them.  What would happen is we would end up subsidizing their economy indefinitely.  That's not beneficial to us in the long run or the short run.

What we would get in return is exactly what you want.  A lot fewer illegal immigrants!

The help I'm referring to is free trade.  Free exchange of goods and services.  And, yes, if need be, monetary help in building infrastructure.  It's an investment that would pay off in the long run.  If the population of Mexico had a median income similar to that of the U.S. or other developed nations, the Mexican consumer would have money to buy products made in the U.S.  And without restrictions on trade, they would be free to do so.  What I'm talking about here takes *years*, but it could happen if the people in charge of both nations would let it.  I know they won't, but it *would* solve the problem if they did.

[lokki]

You don't understand this argument.

No one is going to email their lawn to China have the Chinese cut it, then email it back to them.

No one is going to order a cheese burger from a fast food place in China and wait for it to be Fed Exed to their house.

We are not talking about jobs that can be outsourced.

Illegals are here doing jobs that legals could should be doing.

Ohhh!. You mean the high paying jobs like washing dishes, picking crops, taking care of children (nannys)?
Or you maybe you mean the contruction jobs?

[ChadTower]

The help I'm referring to is free trade.

[daywane]

How about a Moat?

[RacerX]

The help I'm referring to is free trade.  Free exchange of goods and services.

Free trade... of what, exactly?  What does Mexico have that we want?  NAFTA is a sham.  It's as one sided as an agreement has ever been.  NAFTA is the help you're saying we should give them.  They already have it.  How have they improved with our help?

You keep saying "if we make them rich they won't need to come here to work".  Sure, but they should make themselves rich.  It's not up to me to pay for people in Mexico.  It's hard enough to pay for the Mexicans that are here illegally, now you want me to pay for the ones who weren't even THAT enterprising?

Look, I don't really have a problem with the people who come here illegally and work.  They are a drain, yes, but they're doing what the system will allow to improve their lot.  I can respect that.  That doesn't change the fact that they ARE a drain and they should NOT be here without the proper authorizations.  My biggest problem is with the government's total lack of movement on securing the borders and allowing only those immigrants who want to follow legal procedures (i.e. ask permission, knock on the door, like a proper guest).

NAFTA and GATT are just the current agreements that are in place.  They aren't perfect, no.  They are just beginnings.  They are just examples.  They don't have to stay in place as they are forever.  We should work to make them better and more effective.  Just because what is in place now isn't perfect, doesn't mean the idea behind it is a bad one.

And, again, I'm not asking you to make people in Mexico rich (which is *not* what I said, BTW).  I do want them to make their economy better, but if we can help them do that, and it will benefit us as well as them in the long run, we should do it.  I'm not talking about some one sided thing here.  Get that thought out of your head!  I'm a conservative Republican.  I don't believe in tax and spend.  But I'm talking about a long term program that could benefit all of us.

Also, I do wish that we would secure our borders better, but I'm not for building a wall and catapulting people back over the border.  That's a tad extreme for me.

[jbox]

HEY! Despite all the complex social analysis of the situation going on here, the answer has been staring you in the face all along. Just make them privatise their social security!

Free trade... of what, exactly?  What does Mexico have that we want?

Cheap labour apparently.

[fredster]

Americans want cheap electronics,clothing, etc. But guess what if you pay a decent salarie for those products then the prices of those products go up. And unfortunatly no Buy American campain i going to change that.

Yeah, you didn't get the point. You make a good one.  I understand and respect yours, but mine is this:

1) Seal the border with whatever means necessary.  Army, Navy, Airforce, Marines, Robocop, whatever.
2) Enforce the existing immigration laws and deport illegals
3) Fine and punish those who hire illegals wherever and whomever they are.
4) Open the borders to workers for a fixed time limit, controlled and legal.  If they want to become citizens and they follow the rules, fine.  If they break the law, toss them out like a houseguest that pees on the carpet.

If there was no labor at the price offered, then the offer has to go up doesn't it?

[ChadTower]

NAFTA and GATT are just the current agreements that are in place.

[lokki]

Yeah, you didn't get the point. You make a good one.

[ChadTower]

That is the tricky part if the price offered goes up then so do the prices of the goods (and/or services) that are made. And this cascades all over the place.
If instead of $5.00 an hour for a dish washer a restaurant now has to pay $10.00 (plus benefits) then who do you think will pay for this difference? Everything is conected to everything else.
lets go back to crop picking. If you have to go from $5.00 to $100 (plus benefits) for a crew to pick up crops. Then you have to sell your crops for much more than you had to before. And then the super markets. Have the choice of buying a product from you at a very high price. Or importing from some other country. at a much cheaper price. And finally for the end buyer instead of spending $2.00 a weeks now he has to pay $3.00 a week on produce.

You don't see this happening, but you want us to boost up MEXICO'S economy?  How about we take that money we would have wasted in Mexico and use it to subsidize this process?  I'd be a lot more inclined to vote for that than I ever would to send a dollar to boost the economy of another country.

[DrewKaree]

What would be the proper term?  Hispanic, or Latin American?  I ask, because "mexican" is used to refer to a TON of people, and it makes it seem like the problem is simply a problem with Mexico.  Now, while the link fredster points to says that indeed that IS a majority of the problem, if you read a touch further in there, if the figures are correct, the problem is demonstrated to be 81% of the illegal - that's illegal, against the law, for those of you following along at home - immigration problem is......and that's where my question comes in. 

Is the problem 81% Latin American, or 81% Hispanic?

I know the ACTUAL problem is the hiring of illegal immigrants, but that's not what I'm asking.

Oh, and for the record, the white illegal immigrants are out there, although clearly demonstrated to be in the minority.  Of the white illegal immigrants that I've run across (about 2 dozen), they have been from Czechoslovakia (about 3/4ths) and Serbia (the rest).

Chad is correct, when the government decides to do something about it is when the problem will subside.  I called the INS to report the guy I hired, and told them I would keep him employed for the next day, two days, or week until they could send someone to investigate.  I also told them he had been caught by one of my shift managers taking the photos of folks for illegal ID's and also selling that ID the next day - odd reasoning by the guy when confronted, but the response was anything BUT thankful.  I had to go through MANY hoops on MY END  for them to even consider sending someone out, otherwise I could fax them the paperwork and they'd investigate that way  

It opened my eyes to the fact that they could care less about the problem.  Until they change the wording on the I-9 form as well, employers will ALWAYS have a loophole to plead their innocence.  "I certify that the documents presented to me are,  to the best of my knowledge, legal and valid." 

Honest, judge, the fake worker's permit looked real to me!

Lokki, not only have you seemed to try to do things the correct way, you took an active role in making sure you did them. 

It's why people are so angry about the ILLEGAL immigration problem.  If there are folks like you doing things properly, then we expect a MUCH larger percent of people to do so, as well.  It's the criminal violation of the immigration process that has people upset, and the percieved lack of action against those who would violate our laws while benefitting from doing so.

[DrewKaree]

Re-reading my post, I didn't tell of the outcome.

After it became apparent no one cared (I figured two weeks was enough for some crack INS agent to stop in and find out what's up), I called the cops, told them what was going on, and they took him in for questioning.  I never saw or heard from the guy again.

[Grasshopper]

My understanding is that the word hispanic refers to any Spanish speaking person who originates from central or south America. There are probably more sophisticated definitions but I think that's the gist of it. I've never understood why such a diverse group of people are all grouped together under a single label.

I guess a lot of the illegal hispanic immigrants get called 'Mexican' because they have to travel through Mexico to get to the States.

[ChadTower]

Hispanic, at least here, also refers to people from Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, any of those Spanish speaking countries as well.

[lokki]

Hispanic, at least here, also refers to people from Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, any of those Spanish speaking countries as well.

I asumme that we are all aware the Perto Rico is part of the United States. And therefore puerto rican's are not illegal immigrants.

[ChadTower]

I asumme that we are all aware the Perto Rico is part of the United States. And therefore puerto rican's are not illegal immigrants.

I'm not sure that is 100% correct.  They don't have all of the legal rights of a normal citizen in terms of landing and immigrating, that much I know for sure.

[RacerX]

I do want them to make their economy better, but if we can help them do that, and it will benefit us as well as them in the long run, we should do it. 

You've said this about 5 times now but have yet to give any plausible ways for helping Mexico's economy to benefit us.  Raising their per capita income enough that they don't want to come here will cost us more than it helps our immigration problem.  What do we do then, build them a health care system so that they don't come here to see our doctors?  Build them high schools so they don't come here and fill ours?  If they were such an enterprising people they would build their own.  Many other countries have.

I've given a few ways; *you* just disagree with them, which is fine.  Mexico is not an empty box.  They have natural resources.  A large part of their problem has been that a very few people have all the money, and the rest are dirt poor.  There is indeed only so much we can do to help them help themselves.  And make no mistake, *that's* what I'm talking about here.  I'm not talking about just throwing money at the issue.  Especially government money.  Private businesses should invest in Mexico.  Wal-mart has, for example.  They employ more people in Mexico than any other private company.  There, that's another example, but you will say it isn't feasible.   

If the government steps up and enforces our immigration laws like a lot of you are suggesting, yes, they can *reduce* the symptoms.  But until the problem is solved, i.e. until the average Mexican worker can make any kind of living in their own country, they will find a way to get over here and work, no matter what our government does.  The will to survive and to try to provide a better life for one's family is too strong to deny.

[ChadTower]

Wal-mart has, for example.  They employ more people in Mexico than any private company.  There, that's another example, but you will say it isn't feasible.   

Not really... I say that is feasable because it already exists.

If the government steps up and enforces our immigration laws like a lot of you are suggesting, yes, they can *reduce* the symptoms.  But until the problem is solved, i.e. until the average Mexican worker can make any kind of living in their own country, they will find a way to get over here and work, no matter what our government does.  The will to survive and to try to provide a better life for one's family is too strong to deny.

If the immigration laws were enforced... if the US companies that employ the illegals were approrpiately punished... if crossing the border were more difficult than crossing the street... there would be a smaller amount of illegals such that we could deal with them in a more humane manner.  We could help them go through proper channels to become citizens or we could make them go home by means better than catapult.  As it is, what we have is not a problem, it's an infestation, and unfortunately the first thing you do with an infestation is spray it with pesticide to reduce the problem to a more manageable level.

[lokki]

I think Puerto ricans have the best of both worlds.

They can legally work in the USA. But don't have to pay taxes.


http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97184,00.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rq.html

[Grasshopper]

I don't see the Mexicans as being essentially any different to the (mainly white european) settlers who have colonised North America over the past few hundred years. They are just people trying to create a better life for themselves.

I'm sure from the perspective of the native americans, the white settlers were considered to be just as 'illegal' as the Mexicans are considered to be today.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that immigration has to be tightly controlled. I can't think of any historical example where mass uncontrolled immigration has benefitted the host population. But where I part company is when people start to demonise illegal immigrants as being criminals and/or scroungers when they are often simply poor, desperate people.

[ChadTower]

We understand that they are poor.  We understand that they are trying to improve their lives.  I actually don't hate them because I respect that they are taking initiative.  That doesn't change the fact that they are circumventing our laws and draining our resources without giving back nearly what they take.  Hospitals are failing, schools are collapsing, because of the influx of people who are not legally here.

If they were coming in legally, hell I'll write them a sign and hold it at the border saying nice to meet you.  I came in that way.  But we cannot sustain this type of drain.  It is killing our infrastructure.