Spanking in preschool

[shmokes]

This isn't a PnR thread discussing its merits.  It's just me venting.  My 3 year old says one of the teachers at school spanked her today.     I was probing to make sure she didn't just shoo her along or something, but it sounds like she legit spanked her.  My daughter said that her teacher spanked her hard and that she cried.  I asked her why she spanked her and she said it was because she wasn't laying down during nap time, so it sounds like there was a reason for it.  I really don't want to have to deal with this sort of thing.

What's more, about a month ago she said the same teacher about a month ago hurt her shoulder when she grabbed her.  I told my wife, just so she would know in case there was anything to it, but I was pretty skeptical of this just because I've had her act like she was hurt when I've taken her arm or shoulder and led her somewhere she didn't want to go.

But now there's this.  And it's not her regular teacher (it's her old teacher who she had a year ago).  And she hasn't said anything about any of the other three teachers, even though this lady is probably her second favorite and one of the others is very strict and not very nice and my daughter doesn't seem to care for her.

Now I need to go talk to the director.  It sucks.

[ChadTower]

Talk to the director first thing in the AM.  As in the first possible moment the director is available.  I'd be standing at the front door when the first car arrives.  Doesn't matter what you had scheduled that day - now you have a new schedule.

jim, it is illegal for teachers to hit a kid.  Period.  There's no grey area.  My wife is a preschool teacher so I have gotten a pretty good look at how the places are supposed to operate over the last couple of years.

[drventure]

Yep, gotta agree on that one. Go talk to em first thing. Then yank her out of there and find somewhere else, depending on the reaction of the admin.

You want to spank your kids? That's your call.

But nobody else should be doing anything of the sort!

[Vanguard]

Spanking is NOT illegal across the board.   It is dictated by the state.   Shmokes, are you still in Florida?  In Florida corporal punishment is still legal.  

The law applies to k-12 though.  Not sure who governs preschool.   

[Hoopz]

Spanking is NOT illegal across the board.   It is dictated by the state.   Shmokes, are you still in Florida?  In Florida corporal punishment is still legal.  

The law applies to k-12 though.  Not sure who governs preschool.   

I'm pretty sure that pre-school, at least in my area, is private.  That means little oversight as it pertains to this type of punishment.  I don't know of a law that covers it.  Every situation is different.

That being said, I wouldn't stand for this on that age.  There's not a reason for them to do it. 

I also think that if this was a common occurrence, that other parents would have raised the issue long before now.  Maybe it's a one time thing but you've got to put a stop to it now. Hell, I remember in middle school, my parents had to be called and asked permission before I got whacked.  I'd just tell them under no circumstances is your daughter to be punished physically.  Have them list for you the other options that they have.  I guarantee that they use other methods. 

I had a daughter was in pre-school last year and she had a boy in there who would constantly act up.  He wouldn't help clean up and other little stuff.  The teachers eventually told him he couldn't have a snack unless he helped.  Little stuff like that is used to motivate 3/4 year olds.  5 minute time outs etc.

[ChadTower]

Actually, you'd be surprised what a lot of parents will tolerate.  They "don't want to deal with this" and just ignore pretty much everything so long as someone else is responsible for the kid during the day.  My wife deals with parents every day who flat out never should have been allowed to reproduce.

Private or not, hitting someone else's kid is battery by definition. 

Of course, the kid is 3, and 3 year olds tend to make stuff up as they test out lying.  So that really does need to be considered as a possibility here.

[shmokes]

That's a big concern.  I already planned to talk to the director first thing in the morning when I drop her off.  I brought it up again with Maddy after reading her bedtime stories and she started crying.  It doesn't make it a hundred percent, but it lends credence to her position cos she's never been spanked by her mom or me, so I can imagine that it could really affect her.  But I always really liked this lady when she was Maddy's teacher (when Maddy was 2), and Maddy loved her.  And it would REALLY REALLY REALLY suck to get accused of something like that if it's not true.  I mean, it's her job and these sort of accusations can get a person fired.  But in the end, those are serious concerns, but at the same time kind of neither here nor there.  I gotta talk to the director regardless of any misgivings.

I don't anticipate getting a bad reaction from the director.  I hope not.  I've been through three daycare/preschools since I've been in Miami, and this one is BY FAR the best.  As in, not even a comparison the best.  My wife and I love it and, more importantly, Maddy loves it.  I would really hate to switch.

[TOK]

Go in with an open mind. Kids say stuff without understanding consequence.
That is the same age my kid was when she was telling me another kid was punching her. It wasn't true.

[ChadTower]

Why three preschools so far?

BTW, if you need any specific advice, I can give you my wife's email.  She is very good at these things and you wouldn't be the first forum member she has advised.

[shmokes]

The first time we changed preschools was because we moved just like 5 months after we got here.  The second time was because we didn't like the daycare she was at.  We left her in that daycare for six months and that was six months longer than we should have.  It was just inexperience on our part.  My gut was telling me the place wasn't good, but I just figured I was being overprotective.  But my daughter would cry when we dropped her off every day.  I know that's pretty normal.  She was barely two, and she was happy when we picked her up in the evening, or if we came and saw her during the day or picked her up early.  But I just always had a feeling that it wasn't a good place -- not that they were doing anything REALLY bad, but just that the kids weren't getting enough attention.  But I let it go, thinking it was all in my mind.  In retrospect, it seems obvious to me that it wasn't just in my mind, but . . . . Anyway, when we finally put her in her current daycare.  She cried the first day we dropped her off, and never again.  We felt so guilty for leaving her in the prior one for six months.  Still do.

[ChadTower]

Early daycare/preschool is so hard to be comfortable with.  It really is.  There are so many more mediocre facilities than good ones it isn't even funny.  There are some really, really crappy ones, too.  Sadly there is always a place for crappy daycare so long as it's cheap and can manage to stay licensed.  There is a home daycare operator near my house that has a rottweiler in the house.  I can't even imagine leaving my kids there now (8 and 10) nevermind as toddlers.

I have no idea how my wife does her job.  Some of the stories she tells about the parents and there is a new one every day...

[shmokes]

After we had decided to switch her to her current daycare, she hadn't been to the old one in about three weeks (so she'd already had her last day there) and then we drove over there to retrieve her immunization forms and whatnot to give to her new  daycare.  The three of us were all driving in the car like normal and then when we pulled up to her old daycare Maddy just started sobbing.  Not crying, but heartbreaking uncontrollable sobs.  It really wasn't a good place.  And whenever we picked her up her face and hair were a mess.  They just weren't getting attention and weren't nice.  I really kick myself for leaving her there so long.  What I initially dismissed as my own paranoia was, on hindsight, really really obvious signs that I should have taken her out of there.  For the most part I think I'm an excellent parent and that I typically have really good instincts for how to handle things, in spite of it being my first time.  But that was a total fail on my part.

Anyway, I talked to the director this morning.  She was great and handled it perfectly.  Also, I double-checked our contract and their official policy is no corporal punishment, so that makes me happy.  It hadn't even occurred to me that corporal punishment at school is still legal in the US, but I researched it last night and found Florida's laws and, sure enough, Vanguard is right.  In fact, it's only illegal in about half of states.  That's just public schools, too.  Only two states have outlawed it in private schools (though private schools almost unanimously oppose it apparently).  It really surprises me.  I thought the VAST majority of people were against it.  Not necessarily against spanking in general, but against somebody else spanking their kid.  Shrug.

By the way, the US is the only country in the western world where corporal punishment is allowed in public schools.

[ChadTower]

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of which states still allow vs which have made it illegal.

[shmokes]

Viola

[saint]

After we had decided to switch her to her current daycare, she hadn't been to the old one in about three weeks (so she'd already had her last day there) and then we drove over there to retrieve her immunization forms and whatnot to give to her new  daycare.  The three of us were all driving in the car like normal and then when we pulled up to her old daycare Maddy just started sobbing.  Not crying, but heartbreaking uncontrollable sobs.  It really wasn't a good place.  And whenever we picked her up her face and hair were a mess.  They just weren't getting attention and weren't nice.  I really kick myself for leaving her there so long.  What I initially dismissed as my own paranoia was, on hindsight, really really obvious signs that I should have taken her out of there.  For the most part I think I'm an excellent parent and that I typically have really good instincts for how to handle things, in spite of it being my first time.  But that was a total fail on my part.

The exact same thing happened to us with our first child. She was 2, we had just moved to a new state, and I had her in daycare near where I worked. She cried every day when we dropped her off. I was about ready to quit work. Ended up switching to paying my wife's sister to watch her instead, and it was a night and day difference.

Prior to this we had her in daycare in the state we had lived in, and there was never a problem. She absolutely adored (and was adored by) the woman who was her primary care giver at the day care.

Difference between the two was the first day care had older women (40's) and small numbers. New daycare had young girls (teens(?) to early 20's) and lots of kids.

I regret how long it took for us to realize something was wrong.

[saint]

Oh, and any adult who spanks my child had better be bigger and badder than me because I'm coming after them.

[shmokes]

Better consult the list.  It could be that they have the legal right to spank your kid regardless of how you feel about it, while you obviously have no similar right with respect to them.

One thing that I found interesting on the list was Utah.  They outlawed it, unless the parent has given prior written consent to corporal punishment.  Every other state is simply yes or no.  Actually, Ohio also has an asterisk.  It is legal there, but parents can opt out of it.

[saint]

Better consult the list.  It could be that they have the legal right to spank your kid regardless of how you feel about it, while you obviously have no similar right with respect to them.

At that point I am not terribly concerned about the list. For those who are literally minded, I would not in fact physically assault someone who had spanked my child. I would bring down my parental wrath using whatever means were available to me.

In fact, in my state they do have the right to spank. No one would ever have the opportunity to spank my child twice...

[Hoopz]

shmokes, did you find any info about pre-schools though?

I doubt it's easy to find if it's out there at all.   

[ChadTower]

At that point I am not terribly concerned about the list. For those who are literally minded, I would not in fact physically assault someone who had spanked my child. I would bring down my parental wrath using whatever means were available to me.

The first time...

In fact, in my state they do have the right to spank. No one would ever have the opportunity to spank my child twice...

Exactly.  

Damn, don't go to school in Alabama, apparently.  Not sure how they collect those figures but apparently most of the kids getting school spanked in the US are in Alabama.

EDIT:  if you transpose that info over a map of the US it breaks down exactly as I thought it would, sadly... there isn't a state that borders a state that borders a New England state that allows it.

[gnateye]

Oh, and any adult who spanks my child had better be bigger and badder than me because I'm coming after them.

+1 to that saint!

[Loafmeister]

Shmokes: Wow man, I don't blame you. I hope you saw them this morning and mentioned this is not acceptable.  Don't accept a "the Director is busy at the moment" BS, demand to see them right away.

[shmokes]

shmokes, did you find any info about pre-schools though?

I doubt it's easy to find if it's out there at all.   

I couldn't really find any info specific to preschools.  This seems odd to me, because regardless of your overall position on the matter I think there are pretty strong arguments for treating preschools differently from primary schools (not the least of which the amount of training required for workers in preschools).  The state of the law seems to be that absent laws prohibiting it, corporal punishment is allowed.  And I couldn't find any laws specific to preschools.  There could be rules, though, from a regulatory agency that I missed.  The sources I looked through were primarily statutes, cases, legal encyclopedias and law review articles.  The latter two would be pretty likely to pick up regulations, though, so I kinda think they're not there, unfortunately.

Also, I did talk to the director this morning and she handled it very well.  She took it very seriously and assured us that any form of corporal punishment is absolutely not tolerated there and she said she would discuss it with the teacher.  She also made an effort to make sure we understood the possibility that Maddy could be lying or may have been cranky/drama-queen and when the teacher just patted her along she decided to throw a temper tantrum saying that she was spanked.  I already had this same concern, of course.  Anyway, I feel good about it.

[ChadTower]

All I can speak about here is MA but here there are various levels of "preschool worker".  There are teaching assistants, teachers, lead teachers, etc.  By the time you get to teacher the person has to have a bachelor's degree and a state certification - not much different than the requirements to teach as far as high school.  The assistants have to have much less formal education, an Associate's will do I think, but they also can't be alone with kids by law or ever in charge in a room.

EDIT:  just asked the wife, lead teacher is supposed to be "bachelor + certification + several years as teacher".

[Hoopz]

She also made an effort to make sure we understood the possibility that Maddy could be lying or may have been cranky/drama-queen and when the teacher just patted her along she decided to throw a temper tantrum saying that she was spanked.  I already had this same concern, of course.  Anyway, I feel good about it.

One thing that I always try and do when I speak with one of my kids' teachers is to emphasize that I'd like their perspective on _______ (what happened, what he/she said, or whatever) and I always explain that I know kids have a different take on things than adults do.  It sounds like you handled it well, but a lot of times parents say something or ask a question and the teachers automatically get defensive.  

Glad you feel better about it.  

[shmokes]

I regret how long it took for us to realize something was wrong.

That's the thing that makes me feel so guilty.  When I look back on it I just think to myself, "---maternal-smurf---, you knew there was something wrong.  Your gut was telling you so all along.  There's no excuse."

And I had even articulated it to my wife on a few different occasions.  I'd be like, "You know . . . I don't like this place.  I feel like there are too many kids per teacher, and they have them watch TV a lot, and Maddy's face is always dirty when we pick her up.  I mean, they know when we're gonna be there.  You'd think, even if they sucked, that they would have the presence of mind to be like, "Hey, it's 4:30, we should clean her up."  And Stacy would be like, yeah, we should keep an eye on it and maybe think about looking for another place.

In fact, the final straw was that throughout most of the day there were English speakers there, but Maddy's regular teacher worked 7am-4pm, and for the last couple hours of business there were only Spanish speakers.  Stacy went in one day and they had some form she needed to sign, but the form was in Spanish.  And Stacy signed it!!!    Then she called me afterward because she felt so uncomfortable about what she had just done.  I was beside myself and I called, but just got a Spanish speaker.  So I called again and said to let me leave a message and I left a message, letting them know how furious I was about it and that I wanted to find out what the form was and make sure that didn't happen again.  But they never returned my call.  So I called over and over the next day and got voicemail all day long so I drove down there and pulled Maddy out of daycare.  At that point I finally was able to find out what the form was, and it was something benign, but that was beside the point by then.

I feel like such an idiot, though, that I allowed it to go on for so long.  I'm just lucky that Maddy will never really know about it because I feel like it's almost a betrayal.  Like . . . I'm all she's got.  If she can't trust me to protect her from ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like that, who can she trust?  She's totally powerless.  And I swear, if there's a god Maddy is her pièce de résistance.  There is simply no excuse for my being so careless with something so valuable.

[Hoopz]

There is simply no excuse for my being so careless with something so valuable.

More parents need this perspective.

 

[RayB]

Voila

(Fixed the spelling for you)

That chart you linked to is pretty damn interesting. Most (all?) the states with the highest numbers seem to coincide with states with the highest problems of illiteracy, teen pregnancy, poverty, etc... ??

[ChadTower]

You need to learn some perspective, though.  Maybe that just needs time to develop.  You weren't careless as she didn't get hurt, molested, mistreated, etc.  It was just a subpar daycare.  You did something about it.  Maybe you could have done it a little sooner but the perspective here is that we're talking about a few weeks over the course of a lifetime.  It's done, there was no harm, and now she's in a (hopefully) better facility.

[shmokes]

Right right.  Of course.  It's not like I'm going to call DFS or whip myself with a belt or anything.  I consider myself an excellent parent.  It sounds like I'm harder on myself than I am because I'm describing this incident and the way I feel about it in isolation.  In the grand scheme of things, of course, it is minor. 

It just nags me because on the one hand I have the pretty legit excuse of inexperience.  But on the other, my gut was sounding the alarm and I kept telling it to stop overreacting.  It was careless, and I'm lucky that the problem wasn't worse.  And I learned a very valuable lesson (hopefully ).  It's fairly minor in the grand scheme of thigns, but that's partly luck.  It could have been major, and either way I had my eye off the ball.

[ChadTower]

It sounds like you're beating yourself up because I do the same thing.  I had to force myself to let certain things go if they weren't as perfect as I'd have liked but also weren't of any long term consequence.  Took me a while to figure that out.

Of course, with experience, it doesn't necessarily get easier.  The usual trend is for attention to detail like that to decrease with each successive kid.  It usually doesn't get better.

[shmokes]

Probably there's a bit of that.  Thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Xiaou2]

 I remember vividly when I was 5 in Kindergarden,  The teacher came over and Slapped
me across the face, and yelled at me.  It stung badly, and I cried for some time.

 I of course, was a little impatient at the time, and was pounding on the desk. 
I wasnt really angered.. It was more like a joke thing.  You know, repeating what you
see on tv type of thing.  At that age, I really didnt understand what was going on.  I
developed a bit slow, much to do to with parental neglect.

 I was embarrassed, and never told anymore.  Then again, my Father was a far
worse terror than the teacher ever could be.  The things he did to me and the other
kids would have gotten him jailtime had anyone caught him or had my mother had
a spine or care for us.

 I think back to it now... and all she had to do is scold/explain to me verbally and
Im sure I would have stopped.  There was no need to belt me across the face.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's fairly minor in the grand scheme of thigns, but that's partly luck.  It could have been major, and either way I had my eye off the ball.

You can't compare what you did with a minor thing to what you might do with a major thing.

Since your incompetence hasn't been an issue yet, I think you'll both be okay.

[shmokes]

I just mean the warning signs could be exactly the same for something serious.

[ark_ader]

I think you guys are so far out in lala land.  Get a grip.  Is it abuse or correction that got you all fired up?

When I went to school I was old enough to attend primary (like kindergarten) I was 4 and the attending year was 5 and I was a unruly child (no change) and I got whacked for not behaving.  Actually they got tired of whacking me and made me sleep in the special cot for naughty kids (until I figured out that being good was a better idea) but corporal punishment was required and I am glad I got it.  I must note that I was in the UK back in the old days when things were real quiet and if you were lucky you saw a moving car on the road. Yeah early 70s.

Whacking and cannings continued until I went though to high school, even though I got cracked by the teacher in 5th grade in California as I did in the schools in the UK.  Nobody said they couldn't and my Mom was head of the PTA.  Heck if she found out I would get a whack from her and my dad when he got home.

You need to ensure that small children respect and listen to adults at all times.  Also it depends on the child and how they are brought up.  But the teacher should be able to work in an environment that the subject taught is being learned and effective.  If your child gets unruly - its the parent's fault not the child. A firm word should be enough from the teacher.  The teacher should come to you to sort the matter out - not the other way around.  Its your kid not the teachers, why should the teacher discipline your child?

I do not believe in beatings (I had a few) with metal rulers, fingers slammed under desks or kicked down the stairs - that's abuse.  I won't start telling of the psychological abuse for being foreign, but that was added into the mix.  That goes on even today.  From the kids themselves!  It all stems from day one.  Kids today are far worse - scary worse and you guys are complaining.

The moment you let an unruly child disrupt a class or ignores a teacher or parent, then you are asking for trouble.  I mean if you tell your child to stop at pedestrian crossings or near busy roads and they dont.....

No I don't have kids, and if I did one day - they would know how to behave when they left the house......   

[Dartful Dodger]

I just mean the warning signs could be exactly the same for something serious.

Ah I see.  I was just concentrating on the spanking.

You noticed minor issues and you wrote then off as minor issues.  You're questioning your parenting because you're thinking that major issues with the preschool could have the same warnings.

One thing you're underestimating is your daughter.  She told you she got spanked even though she got spanked for doing something wrong.

If you're worried you might not be able to protect your daughter from something bad you can relax.  even if you don't see it, she will.  She told you about a minor incident and you acted accordingly.  If there is a major problem, she will tell you about it and you will also act accordingly.

[shmokes]

Yeah, but I swear to god you are reinforcing my point.  My daughter was telling me for six months that something was wrong (at 2 they have different ways of telling you).  If it had been something worse, she couldn't have told me.  She would probably just cry whenever I dropped her off.  And it wouldn't get better.  You see what I mean?  Honestly, I am not questioning my parenting.  But I have no doubt in my mind that I handled that poorly.  It's spilled milk. And thank god it's just that.  I totally know it ain't that big a deal.  But it is what it is.  A mistake.

@ ark_ader:

K

[HanoiBoi]

Just came across this and wanted to throw in my 2 cents...

Sure, the director proposed a scenario that is a possibility, but that doesn't make it true.  If you haven't already done so, I would definitely speak directly to the teacher.  In the conversation ask questions like 'Why was Maddy up?'  'Did she refuse to lay down?'  'Was she just not paying attention?' etc.  The teacher will most likely provide additional details that will help you to connect the dots and help you to determine what may have actually transpired.

Also, don't hesitate to speak to the parents of Maddy's classmates and see if any of their children have had similar complaints.  You can never be too cautious and no one would blame you for your inquiries.

I've always thought that there should be cameras / webcams in daycares and schools.  Nothing is more precious than our children.

[shmokes]

I would do that if I was more confident that Maddy was spanked, or if I suspected something really serious.  My wife and I have both told Maddy a bunch of times that the teachers at her school are not allowed to spank her.  I'm very confident that we will hear about it if she is spanked.

But I honestly don't know if it happened.  I really don't.  And while nothing is more precious than my child, I am cognizant of the fact that this lady's career is very very important to her, and the director's daycare is very important to her.  And the last thing they need is an overreaction, making all the other parents paranoid that something's going on, etc.  For now, this is enough for me.  If I was sure it happened, or I suspected something worse, or if I thought that the director was not taking it seriously, I would go further.  But this is enough for now.