Wiring Behind the Wall

[hypernova]

In anticipation of possibly getting a 360, I've thought about running some network lines in the house.  I've had times where I've wanted/needed to do this with coax, telephone, and network wiring before, but wasn't confident enough to do it, as I've always wondered a little bit on working behind the wall.

My main question are these:
How am I supposed to run wiring behind a wall that already exists without tearing it up?
Is there a piece of plywood or 2x4 between floors behind the wall?  i.e. if I open a hole on the second floor, and try to drop a cable down to the first floor, or furthur into the basement, will it actually make it there, or will it just rest on whatever floor I'm on because something physically separates the floors?

In the past, I've just used longer cables to bypass destroying walls and such, and/or tucked wires into the space between the carpet and floor molding (when on the same floor).  The possible future 360 is just another reason for me to learn this thing.  And I'd rather not spend the extra money for the wireless adapter, either.

[Expressline99]

The walls of the house will be sitting on a layer of plywood (most likely) from your 2nd floor. So if you open up the wall on the upper
floor you will have to drill through the bottom of the wall (1 2x4 or 2x6) then through the plywood.... That will get you into the
area where the floor joist are. Of which you do not want to make a vertical hole through. So you'll have to figure out where your floor
joist are and drill between them. Once through the open space there you have to drill through 2 (2x4's or 2x6's) Which will be the
top of the wall below..... That would get you into the wall on your 1st floor.  However, most of the time there are blocks between
each stud that makes up the wall. About half way up....those run horizontally So you'd have to get through that some how if you wanted
the cable lower.

Best bet would probably be getting some UV rated wire and run it outside then into the room...and like you said tucking it between the carpet
and the baseboard.... or from there you could pull off a section of baseboard and cut the drywall down low...drilling holes on each stud
until you got the wire to the area you wanted....then you could pull the wire up into an "old Work" box. After that you would just have to put the
baseboard back over the area's you had cut out thus covering up the work.

Wireless adapter might be the way to go...depends on what you want to do.

[Ed_McCarron]

Depends on how the house was framed.  Older houses are typically balloon framed (at least in my area of PA) where the stud cavities run from the attic to the basement - makes running wires a cakewalk, but insulating impossible.

Whats the ceiling like?  You can often cut a hole above it if its a suspended ceiling, and run the cable there.  Drop vertically to a cutout.  If its all low voltage, look into these:

http://homeavcables.com/71002.html

No worrying about boxes.  Don't use these for anything other than AV stuff.

You can also buy a drill bit thats about 6' long and bends - Home depot carries 'em.  You cut an outlet box, and start the bit down into the sillplate at the bottom of the wall.  It'll walk itself right into the basement.  Have your helper tie a string onto the hole provided in the bit and pull it back up to create your fish.

http://cableorganizer.com/greenlee/auger-d-versibit/

To go from the second floor to the basement, do like I just said on BOTH floors.  You'll end up putting a blank on the first floor, or patching the hole.

[protokatie]

http://www.wiretracks.com/prod-rf.html

I saw something about this sort of thing in the TV series "Beyond 2000" back in the 90's. This seems to be the way to go if you do not want to do too much work, but still want to have "in wall" wiring.

EDIT: This method allows for a very easy way to add and remove wiring, so is a must for an easy upgrade path. Also, you can make these sorts of things if you have the tools.

[SavannahLion]

However, most of the time there are blocks between
each stud that makes up the wall. About half way up....those run horizontally So you'd have to get through that some how if you wanted
the cable lower.

You mean the fire stop? You'll need something like a flexible drill extension to punch through the fire stop. I'm still pissed off that one of my ex-employees tossed a sectional 30' one. That ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- is expensive  

Darn it! Ed described the process better than I could. I only partially disagree about the AV boxes. Functionally, they're useless but cosmetically I find wires coming out of random holes in the wall irritating as hell. Pissed me off when the cable guy threaded 12' of cable into the living room and didn't even bother A) putting it in a decent place and B) putting some sort of plug to prevent bugs and water from coming in.

[SavannahLion]

http://www.wiretracks.com/prod-rf.html

AAAGH! This would've made my life so much easier. I laid down some new flooring and used the hollow channel behind the trim to hide my wiring. Do you realize how difficult it is to nail trim without punching the nails through the wires? PITA. I had thought about channeling the dry wall to get better results but it never crossed my mind to make a channel to make removal easier. 

[hypernova]

I found those Wiretracks yesterday.  But if you look at the main page, he's just selling the remainders, as he's closed the business.

So basically, wiring behind a wall's a real ---smurfette---, involving a healthy amount of time and money...especially if you screw something up.

[protokatie]

@ SL

Well, now you know! And knowing is half the battle. GI-JOE!

Actually, I am on a "Star Trek my place up" kick, so I was thinking of these things. Currently, my startrekkie nerdness  is exemplified by a UPS I ordered that doesn't notify the computer that the power is out; so I wrote a batch file that detects whether the power  (or LAN) is out and starts by playing a sample of Margel Barrett saying "Automatic shutdown is in progress" and then does the star trek red-alert klaxxon. After 10 minutes the batch file runs shutdown.exe (unless the power or LAN comes back online) and safely shuts the fileserver down. Yes I AM a dork....

[SavannahLion]

I've been meaning to get my UPS to communicate with my PCs for a while now. Unfortunately, I have three failed UPS where the battery de-gassed(?) and would require minor surgery to remove from said UPS. That leaves me with two UPS that may or may not work. Buggers.

[Expressline99]

I found those Wiretracks yesterday.  But if you look at the main page, he's just selling the remainders, as he's closed the business.

So basically, wiring behind a wall's a real ---smurfette---, involving a healthy amount of time and money...especially if you screw something up.

It can be difficult or easy totally depends on your house....and you to some extent.  But hey lots of info here now....

[Ed_McCarron]

I only partially disagree about the AV boxes. Functionally, they're useless

The wall box eliminators?  Useless?  Wait'll you have to run 200 cables in an office and tell me how useless they are.

[Expressline99]

You mean the fire stop? You'll need something like a flexible drill extension to punch through the fire stop. I'm still pissed off that one of my ex-employees tossed a sectional 30' one. That ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- is expensive  

Darn it! Ed described the process better than I could. I only partially disagree about the AV boxes. Functionally, they're useless but cosmetically I find wires coming out of random holes in the wall irritating as hell. Pissed me off when the cable guy threaded 12' of cable into the living room and didn't even bother A) putting it in a decent place and B) putting some sort of plug to prevent bugs and water from coming in.

Well, I knew about the flex bit...but that's getting too involved I think for the original posting.... I put in low voltage old/new boxes for everything with modular connectors... But I make my own cables for TV/cat 5 as needed. Nice and clean. I did data wiring for a living a few years back mostly commercial but that was easier...metal studs and drop ceilings.


Edit: The Wall box eliminators were all we used in commercial settings...

[SavannahLion]

I only partially disagree about the AV boxes. Functionally, they're useless

The wall box eliminators?  Useless?  Wait'll you have to run 200 cables in an office and tell me how useless they are.

Tell that to the ---uvulas--- that keep leaving them off when they run those 200 cables. In any case, I want them for different reasons I guess. Cosmetically, I despise having cabling just dangling there out of a hole in the wall.

Some installers are so bad they'll leave the cabling hanging from the ceiling. Irritates the hell out of me. 

[SavannahLion]

Well, I knew about the flex bit...but that's getting too involved I think for the original posting....

I think they can be rented at places like Home Depot and Lowes. Or if you know someone who is a bit of handy man they'll have one one can use?

I really can't think of any way to get through the fire stop. You can either go through it or go around it.

While it's easier to go outside, then go back through the wall, I never liked how that looks. I do whatever I can to hide the cabling, sometimes I'll hide it behind the rain gutters as I run horizontal or pull the trim and tuck it just behind the wall boards (skin? whatever the outside of a house is called). I even took advantage of tucking a cable parallel a vent during a repair just to keep the cable out of sight. I don't know if my old landlord appreciated that one. 

[HaRuMaN]

Actually, I am on a "Star Trek my place up" kick, so I was thinking of these things. Currently, my startrekkie nerdness  is exemplified by a UPS I ordered that doesn't notify the computer that the power is out; so I wrote a batch file that detects whether the power  (or LAN) is out and starts by playing a sample of Margel Barrett saying "Automatic shutdown is in progress" and then does the star trek red-alert klaxxon. After 10 minutes the batch file runs shutdown.exe (unless the power or LAN comes back online) and safely shuts the fileserver down. Yes I AM a dork....

That's kinda cool. 

[ChadTower]

I've been meaning to get my UPS to communicate with my PCs for a while now. Unfortunately, I have three failed UPS where the battery de-gassed(?) and would require minor surgery to remove from said UPS. That leaves me with two UPS that may or may not work. Buggers.

Are you sure it's going to be that hard?  I've done a few swaps, even on cheap $30 units, and the batteries are just on QDs.  Open the case, pull the QDs, swap the battery if you can find the right replacement.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'd rather not spend the extra money for the wireless adapter, either.

Be a lot easier if you did...

[TOK]

I'd rather not spend the extra money for the wireless adapter, either.

Be a lot easier if you did...

I think he's doing it right. For online games and all the other stuff consoles can do now, like media servers and Netflix, wired is better.

To the original poster, I suggest doing at least one spare while you have the wall open. I ended up doing 3 and used them all (Wii, PS3 and PC by the television).

[Ed_McCarron]

Some installers are so bad they'll leave the cabling hanging from the ceiling. Irritates the hell out of me. 

And those are the installers that don't stay in business long.  They're probably the same ones that convince customers that "sure, you don't need patch cords, we'll just crimp the ends on..."   

If someones done a job for you and you let them get away with leaving the faceplates hanging in the breeze, well, shame on ya.  My customers demand (and deserve) better.

[SavannahLion]

I've been meaning to get my UPS to communicate with my PCs for a while now. Unfortunately, I have three failed UPS where the battery de-gassed(?) and would require minor surgery to remove from said UPS. That leaves me with two UPS that may or may not work. Buggers.

Are you sure it's going to be that hard?  I've done a few swaps, even on cheap $30 units, and the batteries are just on QDs.  Open the case, pull the QDs, swap the battery if you can find the right replacement.

Uh... yes. I've had it happen before.  The battery expands and splits the outer shell of the battery, effectively wedging the battery inside the UPS. Either I destroy the battery and mess with whatever wants to come out or disassemble the UPS until I can get to the battery and remove it. Disassembling the UPS also lets me inspect the PCB inside.

Some installers are so bad they'll leave the cabling hanging from the ceiling. Irritates the hell out of me. 

And those are the installers that don't stay in business long.  They're probably the same ones that convince customers that "sure, you don't need patch cords, we'll just crimp the ends on..."   

If someones done a job for you and you let them get away with leaving the faceplates hanging in the breeze, well, shame on ya.  My customers demand (and deserve) better.

You're assuming I paid for it.

[ChadTower]

Uh... yes. I've had it happen before.  The battery expands and splits the outer shell of the battery, effectively wedging the battery inside the UPS. Either I destroy the battery and mess with whatever wants to come out or disassemble the UPS until I can get to the battery and remove it. Disassembling the UPS also lets me inspect the PCB inside.

What brand?  I've beaten a few of those things to CRAP and not had the batteries leak.  They run out of capacity but they're always just fine when I pull them out.

[orion]

There is no way to avoid cutting any holes in your drywall to run new cables. The best you can do is run the cables as smartly as you can to avoid tearing up lots of wall. I have done a lot of electrical work, and I have had to call out electricians when I knew I didn't have the know how or the tools to run a particular line. For example when I bought my house it didn't have a dishwasher. A dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit therefore I had to run a line all the way from the circuit breaker to the spot where the dishwasher was going to go. I called an electrician friend over for that one, and he had to cut some holes in some drywall... it's unavoidable. That's why the hardest part of DYI electrical work to me is patching holes and painting. If you are lucky enough to have AC duct work that runs between floors, those make good wire chases.

[SavannahLion]

Uh... yes. I've had it happen before.  The battery expands and splits the outer shell of the battery, effectively wedging the battery inside the UPS. Either I destroy the battery and mess with whatever wants to come out or disassemble the UPS until I can get to the battery and remove it. Disassembling the UPS also lets me inspect the PCB inside.

What brand?  I've beaten a few of those things to CRAP and not had the batteries leak.  They run out of capacity but they're always just fine when I pull them out.

What brand battery or UPS? I don't recall the brand of battery, the logo is up inside where I can't see. But I generally buy and use APC. All but one of my APC's still use the same battery type regardless of when I bought it. APC's quality has been going down a bit though, I've been considering going with another for my next purchase.

[Ed_McCarron]

If you are lucky enough to have AC duct work that runs between floors, those make good wire chases.

Wha?  While you can run wiring in plenum spaces if the cable is rated for it, they didn't really intend for you to use the return for a wire chase.  Crossing a stud cavity thats used as a cold air return is usually OK, but still gets the stink eye from some inspectors.

You're assuming I paid for it.

Wait,  you got a half-assed job for free, or you didn't pay AFTER the job was half-assed?

[orion]

If you are lucky enough to have AC duct work that runs between floors, those make good wire chases.

Wha?  While you can run wiring in plenum spaces if the cable is rated for it, they didn't really intend for you to use the return for a wire chase.  Crossing a stud cavity thats used as a cold air return is usually OK, but still gets the stink eye from some inspectors.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply run it though the duct work, rather follow the path of the duct work. It sounds though you are saying there are issues with that though. I find that with inspectors you never know what your going to get, in my experience some will point out every minor little thing and some, not so much.

[RobbyMac]

Cut a hole in the upstairs wall (to patch later), drill through whatever studs/caps you need to get to the wall cavity on the 1st floor. Cut a hole in the 1st story wall down low to mount a wall plate with network jack in it. use this hole to catch your fish tape, and eventually run your wire...

or spend the 60$ on wireless like i did after running 2 sets of wires just to have stuff move around the house again.

[Bobulus]

If the house is already wired for telephone, it makes things a lot easier. I did something like this in my house to connect an upstairs bedroom with the wired router on the other end of the house and downstairs.

The rooms were wired for simple, four-strand telephone, so I tied the 8-strand network cable to the telephone cable and went into the attic to pull both up and through. As long as the knot isn't big enough to catch on anything, it'll work. And you can still get 100BaseT ethernet with only two pairs of wires, so the other two pairs you can use for the phone line you removed.

[SavannahLion]

You're assuming I paid for it.

Wait,  you got a half-assed job for free, or you didn't pay AFTER the job was half-assed?

It's one of those, "Here, we're having this wiring installed. You don't have a choice with who we go with because we already paid for the contract. Make sure they do a good job."