TV resolution questions....(from a noob)

[ffingers]

So I am finally making some head-way on my cab. I have a spare PC that is running mame and maLa and some other stuff just to get my roms in order and to figure out the layouts and whatnot.

When i though about the project, i knew the biggest thing to consider is the monitor. I decided I didn't want a computer or LCD monitor because it wouldn't look realistic enough (I love the old 'tube') look. In the same respect, I wanted a large screen, i.e., 27". Considering a 27" arcade monitor is expensive and makes getting to windows almost unusable, a TV became the best choice. Considering how cheap you can get a tube on craigslist, it was a no-brainer.

So i got a 27" JVC tube for $20 and it has power return (BONUS!!!). I hooked it up last night and now i have questions.

1) what is the optimal resolution to use on a television (last night i had it outputting 640x480, 600x800, and 1024x768)...they all looked relatively the same, but i am wondering if there are advantages for some games or anything?

2) i am using s-video...i have run many a tvs to a computer and used the tv as a monitor...it usually entailed increasing the windows font to get around....the fonts in mala seem small to mee, is there anyway to increase their size?

3) i probably already know the answer, but let me ask anyways , looking at the screen, the games look "good"....they look like an arcade monitor to some respect....my LCD that was running as well was just too sharp...it didn't have the little bit of smoothing you get with a TV...that being said, words and whatnot seemed a little too blurry depending on the game....is this normal? is there a way to "enhance" the crispness of the TV....i guess if i had to pick, i still prefer the tube over the LCD monitor because it does look more "authentic"...but i feel that it does look a little sloppy...any way to cure this?

thanks again guys!

[DillonFoulds]

1) The best i've found using an LCD, is to match pixel for pixel as far as resolutions go. My PN50A450 has a computer hooked up that runs at 1360x768 (or some oddball resolution) because that's the pixels on the tv.

That being said, that is for a plasma (fixed pixel) and CRTs can often scale images themselves. I would suggest using a lower resolution (ie: 640x480) because it's going to take less scaling for your tv. Think shrinking, not scaling. You might find that a lower resolution will make some text more readable.

But this is all YMMV, and ultimately you'll have to find what works best for your setup.

2) Fonts in MaLa are controlled by the layouts. Backup whichever layout you're using, and tweak it using Malalayout.exe (IIRC). In there you can double-click the textbox you want bigger, adjust the fontsize, save it, and select the layout in mala.

3) Mabe scanlines is what you're looking for, perhaps?

I'm a newbie on these forums. Someone feel free to jump in and correct me if i'm off base on any of this.

[Jack Burton]

Your video card is outputting 640x480. 800x600 and 1024x768 are just scaled versions of those resolutions.  Your television is not actually switching resolutions when you change between them, it is merely scaling up and down the size of your text and icons.

Your graphics look blurrier on the CRT because they are.  You are probably getting a lot of scaling artifacts by running games in a higher resolution than they were designed for.

The best solution for this is to turn off any filters for the emulators you are running, and run your games at 2x their original resolution.

[ffingers]

Thanks Jack, that being said....how... 

I understand that TV's don't output true 1024 or 800x600....I have done quite a bit of work with powerstrip and over/under scanning when i was doing HTPC stuff....i am a fairly competent computer guy (i was a system/network admin for many years at a big company)...i just don't know much about the arcade world yet... 

that all being said, i installed soft15khz thinking it MIGHT make the TV picture better?? the only problem there isn't really an area stating exactly how to utilize it for a tv other than very high level stuff which assumes you understand the ins and outs of arcade resolutions, which i don't yet....

also...i can have mala start at 800x600 for my layout....but i have read you can have mame switch resolutions...assumingly utilizing the resolutions from soft15khz??? am i right??

also...what are the command line to run from within mala (switches and whatnot) for mame.exe to get the best output...

thanks again!

[MonMotha]

SDTVs are not capable of more than ~480 visible lines interlaced, and even that can be pushing it a little due to the fact that most TVs are pretty darned overscanned.  The 800x600 and 1024x768 output options many PC cards have for TV out is just scaled back down to 640x480 (or even smaller, if you enable the "underscan" option), which is why it looks so bad.

Unfortunately, most PC cards won't accept natively timed TV video for TV output (weird, huh?).  Best bet is usually 640x480 progressive as it avoids most of the scaling.  Sometimes the higher resolutions look a little nicer since it gives the scaler more input to work with, but stuff that would be legible on a PC monitor at those higher resolutions will be really blurry when scaled back down for TV usage.  Basically, take big stuff, scale it up, then scale it back down.  Depends on how the TV scaler is implemented, and this is card dependent.

It's possible to get really, really nice looking TV output out of a PC with a lot of work, but you'll still be limited to 480 visible lines, and it'll still be interlaced.  Use something like soft15k or whatever method you prefer to get standard res RGB, then use an RGB to s-video or RGB to YPbPr component adapter to hook it up to your TV.  If your TV has RGB SCART input (common in Europe and sometimes Japan but rare as all get out everywhere else), you can skip the last step.  The results are pretty darned good looking - way better than anything I've ever seen from the crappy s-video outputs they put on PCs normally.

If you're really lucky, the TV out on your card will support being fed native TV timings.  Anything with ~60Hz refresh and ~15kHz horizontal scanrate should be compatible with most NTSC televisions.  Give it a shot and see what happens.  I've yet to find a card that doesn't just shut off its TV output when placed into such a mode, though.

[Jack Burton]

If you're really lucky, the TV out on your card will support being fed native TV timings.  Anything with ~60Hz refresh and ~15kHz horizontal scanrate should be compatible with most NTSC televisions.  Give it a shot and see what happens.  I've yet to find a card that doesn't just shut off its TV output when placed into such a mode, though.

Really?  Are there cards that don't have prescaling?  So you could send 240 line resolutions over S-video?  That would be phenomenal if true.

[MonMotha]

Really?  Are there cards that don't have prescaling?  So you could send 240 line resolutions over S-video?  That would be phenomenal if true.

I've heard that some cards will accept TV compatible timings and just do the colorspace conversion and modulation (bypassing the scaler), but I've never found one.  Been looking for quite some time for other purposes.  I've settled on just using the RGB to S-Video converter I built a few years back when I need to do this.

[commander]

What about external VGA to component converters do they just do colorspace conversion or also force scaling.

Anyone know about this one
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-VGA2CPNT-Component-Video-Converter/dp/B000G6Y0S6

Plus are there any VGA to Component converters that only do colorspace conversion and are reasonably priced.

[MonMotha]

That box looks like just a colorspace converter, no scaler is probably included.  That would do exactly what you want if you are outputting native TV timings in RGB and need to hook up to a TV with component inputs.

[ffingers]

so let me see if i got the gist of this...

get a decent video card (tv out optional)....
use soft15khz to get native timings
get an RGB to s-video converter
hook up the tv via s-video...

as a result, i should have a relatively decent picture?

will the blurriness be reduced?

EDIT: something like this??

http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-Computers/High-Perform-Vga-To-Tv-Converter-Svideo-Rca-Out-Cable-Adapter-p-736777.html

[MonMotha]

so let me see if i got the gist of this...

get a decent video card (tv out optional)....
use soft15khz to get native timings
get an RGB to s-video converter
hook up the tv via s-video...

as a result, i should have a relatively decent picture?

will the blurriness be reduced?

EDIT: something like this??

http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-Computers/High-Perform-Vga-To-Tv-Converter-Svideo-Rca-Out-Cable-Adapter-p-736777.html

Pretty much.  On a high quality TV using component, it'll look identical to an arcade monitor modulo some overscan that you may not be able to adjust out.  Even S-Video is pretty close.  Composite will look terrible, of course, like it always does.

That cable will not work.  That cable is designed for certain unusual laptops that supported TV out (via the normal scaler laden methods) on their HD15 "VGA" outputs.  I've never actually seen such a laptop.  You also do not want a "scan converter' (aka "VGA to TV adapter") which would have a scaler built in to accept normal PC timings and make them TV compatible just like what is built into most PC cards these days.  What you want is what is commonly called a "transcoder".  All you need to do is turn RGB into YPbPR, which is just a colorspace conversion.

[ffingers]

i see....seeing as i already have the TV...a 27" JVC....i think the best thing to do would be to find the adapter and try it out....with and without and see the gains...

thanks a lot monmotha...

one last question....no one answered it from before....

i see that many people run mame with switches....i haven't been able to really discern what each switch does and whether or not i should use it...etc....soooo....do you know a place i could go to read up on exactly what switches i should be running...or better yet....do YOU have any opinions on the subject... 

[DillonFoulds]

I too would be interested in these switches. I've read something along the lines of a "-monitor arcade" or something. I'm fuzzy on the specifics, but it'd be nice to know.

I couldn't find it in the mame docs either.

[commander]

What about the JROK's RGB to Component does it support outputting native TV timings i never got a conclusive answer on it, and would it work properly with PC VGA RGB levels versus Arcade PCB's RGB level's.
Would this be better than the other converter i linked to since it seems crafted towards arcade PCB's ?

[DillonFoulds]

If you check out the link you posted it clearly says:

Technical Details

    * Converter changes a VGA (640x480) signal to a component (480p) signal, letting you connect your computer to a television
    * Depending on display/monitor, converter can convert an XGA signal (1024x768) to 720p

So basically, your only options would be to set your monitor to either 640x480 and have 480p out, or set it to 1024x768 and have 720p output.

If you're thinking about using one of these between an arcade PCB and a TV monitor, i think you might need to keep looking. Not 100% sure if it will work that way or not, but it looks like it's a transcoder more than an upscaler. Interesting though, because XGA is a 4:3 picture, and 720p is a 16:9 picture(1280x720).

Anything outside these dimensions, you'll have to try and find out yourself, although i wouldn't suggest it.

StarTech products are generally cheaply designed to serve only one purpose. They tried buying bought out MutantMods, and look where MutantMods is now...

[ffingers]

Okay, i am building a new PC for the cab...what kind of graphic card should i get then? i was stuck getting a card with s-video out but according to the above, that's not necessary...

any opinions? (trying to stay budget conscience on the PC side)

[DillonFoulds]

Umm maybe this thread could be misleading you a bit.

If you're just going S-video out to a tv, you don't need any soft-15khz or arcadevga, just any video card that can output through s-video.

Still, someone jump in if i'm wrong here...

[MonMotha]

   * Converter changes a VGA (640x480) signal to a component (480p) signal, letting you connect your computer to a television
    * Depending on display/monitor, converter can convert an XGA signal (1024x768) to 720p

So basically, your only options would be to set your monitor to either 640x480 and have 480p out, or set it to 1024x768 and have 720p output.

If you're thinking about using one of these between an arcade PCB and a TV monitor, i think you might need to keep looking. Not 100% sure if it will work that way or not, but it looks like it's a transcoder more than an upscaler. Interesting though, because XGA is a 4:3 picture, and 720p is a 16:9 picture(1280x720).

XGA at 1024x768 is "close enough" to 720p that it usually works, which is probably why they recommend it, some TVs may be a little unhappy or not display a chunk of the image.  640x480 VGA *is* 480p in terms of timings, so that's easy enough.

Depending on how they do it, it may work down at 480i, too.  Just output 640x480 interlaced, and you get 480i.  The timings are identical.  Only reason this won't work is if the conversion is done digitally, and the PLL can't lock at that low pixel clock, which is possible.  However, if it's analog, it won't know or care.  240p (320x240 progressive) may also work, but that'll be even more subject to pixel clock limitations on the low end for digital conversion.  Maybe try 640x240 and software scale everything 2x horizontally (this results in an effectively identical analog signal).

For grins, you can probably also get 1080i (1920x1080 interlace), 720i (1280x720 interlace), and maybe even 1080p (1920x1080 progressive) if the converter can keep up with that kind of bandwidth (things may start getting a little blurry). SXGA (1280x1024) will also probably work if 1080p does, but some TVs may be unhappy.  Maybe try SXGA+ (1440x1050) or WSXGA+ (1680x1050) if that's all you can convince your PC to output.

As for aspect ratio, it'll just be stretched, and your pixels won't be square, and unfortunatley Windows assumes your pixels are square.  You can alter your horizontal pixel count in order to make the pixels square again if you like, but the converter and your television don't really care.  DVDs are encoded at 720x480 which is neither 4:3 nor 16:9.  The monitor just stretches/crushes it to fit.  Remember that analog video signals don't have a well defined horizontal pixel count.

Umm maybe this thread could be misleading you a bit.

If you're just going S-video out to a tv, you don't need any soft-15khz or arcadevga, just any video card that can output through s-video.

This is correct.  You can just use the onboard S-Video output from your PC card.  The results are usually subpar, and you can't usually have native timings due to how those outputs work, but it may be acceptable for many.  With some work and some external hardware, it's possible to basically treat a TV like an arcade monitor with similar results.  Biggest issue is usually lack of geometry controls.

For a while, some PC cards had "HDTV output" which was rumored to support proper 480i.  I never got hold of one try to it out, and there may be some driver limitations.  I'd love to know if this is true.  I don't use MAME, but there are other instances where I want to have native control over TV compatible video output.

[ffingers]

i understand that using s-video out doesn't require the use of soft15khz....

i understand that to make the best picture come from a CRT TV having s-video would be to get an RGB to s-video converter so as to pass only the colorspace? correct???

using soft15khz and the converter should be able to yield decent images on the tube correct???

MonMotha...if I were to get a video card, the adapter, and install soft15khz....what would be the best resolution to output to the tv in order to get a "truer" arcade experience?

i also understand you said you don't use mame, but do you know how mame handles game that are at different timings? does it switch if the timings are available?

[MonMotha]

Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

For your desktop, you'll want to run 640x480, and it will need to be interlaced.  Soft15kHz sets this up for you, though it may default to 800x600 interlaced, which, while higher res, may not be appreciated by your television due to the low refresh rate.

For MAME and other emulators, you'll want to let it switch to whatever is native for the game in question.  Arcade games have run at tons of different resolutions and timings over the years since the monitors are actually fairly forgiving.  They're all pretty close, and most TVs can handle most of them (medium res games and some weird games like MK/MK2 are exceptions).  I gather MAME can do this.  There's certainly no reason your PC hardware can't do this.  I don't know how to set this up.  I don't even run Windows.  However, once you get this stuff set up, you're basically treating your TV like an arcade monitor, so the same documentation applies.