Author Topic: Anyone here have experience in repairing williams pinball machines? (Read 6696 times)

dansoftcore · « **on:** August 03, 2009, 01:54:57 pm »

I have a 1985 williams sorcerer machine and it did work nice until about 2 years ago. While it has been collecting dust I decided I'd look into fixing it now. my only problem is none of the diagnostic switches work or do anything. When I turn it on and look at the cpu boards indication light has a 7 on it and the only problem cause I have is cpu board lockup or pia u5 faulty... Before it kicked the bucket it did have a problem blowing fuses but I wasn't the one working on it so I don't know what fuses were being blown. Does anyone have any pointers suggestions or can point me in the right direction?

dansoftcore · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2009, 02:35:42 pm »

I wasn't aware of any other buttons on the cpu board other then the two diagnostic buttons sw1 and sw2 I did replace all three double a's tho.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2009, 03:08:59 pm »

seeing that it is probably the power supply is it better to just replace it or fix it? The cheapest replacement I can find online is 100 bucks... Id like to fix it but I don't see anything wrong with it everything is putting out what it should and I replaced all the fuses =\

Jeff AMN · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2009, 03:28:26 pm »

You should always try to fix things first. It's not so much about the money, but the experience you gain will help you identify other problems down the line much faster. If you learn early on how to fix your machines, you'll also be able to score better deals on machines because you can buy machines with issues at a discount. But yes, fixing is cheaper and if you learn how to fix stuff, in the long run you'll be less frustrated by the expenses this hobby can bring.

Ok, so it is about cost too.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2009, 03:43:24 pm »

Ahhh I'm not worried about scoring better deals since I live in an apartment and I don't have much room for more then two machines and the people bellow me probably hate my guts! Just this pin and a mame cabinet I'm currently working on! The pinball was a present from my parents about 5 years ago the thing ran fine with very basic maintenance until it started blowing fuses the just wouldn't come on. So I have never repaired a machine before but I do have background in electronic board repairs so I thought it wouldn't be so bad to tag a stab at it myself before ordering the part. But as of now I'm completely confused about what to do next I know its a pretty basic board that they used in dozens of other william machines so I'm really hoping one of you nice folks can share your wisdom with me!

shardian · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:04:05 pm »

It kind of matters which fuses were blowing.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:09:29 pm »

Well I wasn't the one to work on it but I believe it was either f5 or f6 both of which are on the power supply board.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2009, 06:34:40 pm »

I did notice a line of lights on the top of board will flash like 5 times really fast sometimes when I turn it on if that helps at all.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2009, 09:06:49 pm »

Yeah I was hoping it wouldn't come down to that... =\ I was hoping with what I narrowed down I mite have been able to narrow it down more... and I'm also not sure if its the power supply or the cpu board. I guess If I hook it up to the computer power supply it would narrow it down to the pinballs powersupply... Ah I guess the next time I have a few days off Ill attempt that... I'm just nerves never worked on a pinball machine before ah...

Pinball Wizard · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:31:41 am »

Quote from: dansoftcore on August 03, 2009, 03:08:59 pm

seeing that it is probably the power supply is it better to just replace it or fix it? The cheapest replacement I can find online is 100 bucks... Id like to fix it but I don't see anything wrong with it everything is putting out what it should and I replaced all the fuses =\

You should find a rebuild kit. The PSU is old enough now to need a rebuild kit. I had to do that in my Centaur and it fixed problems I didn't think it was even connected to directly.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2009, 02:33:13 pm »

Where is this all famous StephenH? Hah well I replaced all the fuses checked the two leads 12v and 4v I think? And everything seemed fine this is just so bizarre. I'm off work tommarow so I mite mite try hooking up the power supply to the board and seeing if it turns out without a 7 error. Should I unplug all the other cables from the cpu board before I try that?

dansoftcore · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:31:37 pm »

Thanks I didn't think of that i'll try that out tommarow. I'll have to find some schematics online it didn't come with any =\

dansoftcore · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2009, 10:54:47 am »

So after messing with those plugs its still giving me the 7 error but it seems like if I have any one not plugged in the 7 won't be there and it will be a 0 but I can't actually do anything with the diagnostic buttons or the auto up and such. When it wasn't doing the 7 error it was flickering the lights really fast and then making the da ding noise for a free game and then the 7 would come up. This is really bizarre and I'm thinking I mite have a big project on my hands now=\

shardian · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2009, 11:07:03 am »

Sounds like you have some reading to do:
http://www.pinrepair.com/sys11/index1.htm#gen

Print out the guide, and read it through. You'll learn a ton of stuff, and fix your game.

While you're at it, print this one too:
http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/index.htm

dansoftcore · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2009, 11:46:59 am »

Will all that apply to mine? Mines a 1985 and the guide sais for 1986-1990

shardian · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:04:23 pm »

Start reading and you'll understand. System 9 is technically an early version of System 11 hardware. The first section pretty much summarizes the differences.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:10:31 pm »

Alright thanks for the link but I got called into work today so I'll have to read threw that tonight or tommarow

dansoftcore · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2009, 08:00:37 am »

So at around midnight last night I checked some of the plugs and then she fired right up! It wouldn't go from game over to new a new game. But then as soon as I knew what was going on the free game bell went nuts and 7 was on the display on the cpu board... Lame... So I decided to take a break and have a look under the playfield. After lifting it and poking around with a flashlight I noticed part of the piece that pushes a ball into the part to launch it was broken off. It looked like a little arm and now that I think about it I believe the machine had a problem starting a new round right before the game would ugh start hah. Think that might be the culprit of all this?

dansoftcore · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2009, 01:40:46 pm »

I was hoping that would do the trick but no... I took a vid of what it does I mite upload it later if anyone cares!

ChadTower · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2009, 01:53:29 pm »

EOS switch on that coil?

ChadTower · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2009, 02:18:20 pm »

Oh, heh, I misread which part is the problem.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2009, 02:38:43 pm »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCc3wHZZYDQ[/youtube]

And the loud click at the end was just me turning it off. I know I didn't show it but when you first turn it on the display on the cpu board is 0 and then when it starts making the loud humming noise the display turns to 7. And If it turn it on right after it does this I want get the game over screen it will take like an hour or so without messing with it till I turn it on and it displays the game over screan before going nutts.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:07:59 pm »

I've been thinking of rebuilding it, any ideas where to get a rebuild kit?

ChadTower · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:12:01 pm »

here

Email him about the kit, says out of stock but Ed is a great vendor.

ChadTower · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:56:36 pm »

I didn't suggest the hv kit...

http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=W711A-PEC-KIT

dansoftcore · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2009, 04:42:14 pm »

I mite order that after I take the board out and check out the solder joints and such I believe the 12v for the cpu board is the top plug? Above the heatsink

gibbous · « **Reply #26 on:** August 10, 2009, 11:22:17 am »

12V is coming in to the CPU board at 1J17 I think, near the battery and the sound diagnostic switch. I think the two pins closet to the batteries are 12V, furthest out is +, next one in is -.

I've got a Space Shuttle with similar problems. But on mine the 7 never goes away, and I've ruled out the PS as a problem. Verified the ROMs (which is the other thing the repair guide says could be wrong) and I've found a bad chip at U3. Have to get a replacement and see what happens from there. If I'm reading the schematics right (still new to this), U3 tells U23 to pass the ROM data to the CPU, which would account for a ROM error if it didn't work.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #27 on:** August 10, 2009, 08:02:30 pm »

Maybe mineis the rom... I'm getting 12v on the cpu board and powersupply... Where do you plan on ordering your roms?

gibbous · « **Reply #28 on:** August 11, 2009, 10:37:43 am »

I'm lucky I have a buddy that did it for me. Didn't help though.

http://www.hobbyroms.com/ might be a good place to go.

At least part of my problem seems to be that I'm loosing a volt going from pin 14 to pin 13 on U3, and they should be the same voltage. As I understand it, this is the CPU trying to read the ROMs. Swapping the chip at U3 did nothing. I'm tracing the problem to all the other chips it touches now looking for something that's bringing the voltage down. There's a bunch of them.

BTW - Ed at EdCheung.com will sell you working System 9 boards or fix yours. I'm going to try to fix mine first (hopefully not doing more damage!), but it's nice to know the option is there.

dansoftcore · « **Reply #29 on:** August 11, 2009, 10:32:32 pm »

I noticed mine is dropping voltage as well it isn't much just about .4 off.

ChadTower · « **Reply #30 on:** August 12, 2009, 08:45:23 am »

Quote from: pinballjim on August 11, 2009, 03:41:41 pm

ROMs rarely go bad.

They do on Sterns sometimes. I've seen it on Stern vids and pins.

gibbous · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2009, 09:50:20 am »

Quote from: dansoftcore on August 11, 2009, 10:32:32 pm

I noticed mine is dropping voltage as well it isn't much just about .4 off.

From pin 14 to 13 on U3? According to the schematics it's not supposed to drop any voltage. Goes in on 14 and out on 13 and it should just be a straight through type of deal.

I pulled some of the related chips last night that are also on the R/-W line, but the voltage stayed low. I have a few more to pull tonight. There's nothing but chips on the path, one resistor that shows 5V on either side, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

I did accidentally short pins 5 and 6 on the CPU (U17) and the diag. display went to zero. Not sure if that's significant or just a coincidence, or even if it's doing any damage, so I didn't do it anymore. :p They are marked VMA and NMI with a bar over the top of the NMI in the schematics.

gibbous · « **Reply #32 on:** August 21, 2009, 11:17:23 pm »

Turns out the external PS I was using for testing did not have enough amperage to drive all the chips. Had a friend look at it and he hooked up two PSes and got the 7 to turn into a 1. Then found U23 bad, it wasn't passing data on one line, swapped it, and the 1 turned into a 0!!!

Gonna pick it up and see what happens.


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