Black Knight

[ChadTower]

ChadTower if you dont mind me asking how much did you pay for the machine?

Wasn't a pure cash transaction, I paid $150 + I did some pin work for the guy.

[akoz]

Oh i see. "pin work" if that's what you want to call it.

I have a chance to pick myself up one. he says its in really good condition. I will take pictures when i view it and post them. With a black Knight is there anything with the machine i should look for when i go and view it? and Chad what would you consider top dollar for the black knight?

Thanks and sorry for changing the topic in your post

[ChadTower]

My experience is that BK is one of those games with a different condition scale than most.  They got SO MUCH PLAY that "really good" is often "a player" if it were a different title.  Keep that in mind when going by a verbal assessment.

Best guess is anywhere from $500 to $800 for a fully working game depending on the actual condition.  Really nice ones will go higher but despite the production numbers I just don't run into very many nice BKs in person.

What to look for... erm, jim's idea is decent.  You may be able to tell if the 40 pin interboard connector is still original and crappy by giving it a hard shake.  I can't think of much on the playfield to look for beyond art wear, it's a pretty basic set of hardware despite the two level design.  Look for the larger plastics to see if they are intact if that matters.

[Jeff AMN]

Shake it around while you play it and see if you can't get it to lock up or have features conk out.  Then cut your offer by $200.

If you did that to my machine I'd grab you by the shoulders, turn you around 180 degrees, and boot you a good one right in the behind as I sent you out the door.

[akoz]

lol so 2 for shaking the machine 1 for not shaking the machine. 

You may be able to tell if the 40 pin interboard connector is still original and crappy by giving it a hard shake.  I can't think of much on the playfield to look for beyond art wear, it's a pretty basic set of hardware despite the two level design.  Look for the larger plastics to see if they are intact if that matters.

so nothing really out of the ordinary with a black knight. no defects that are commin with the machine?

[ChadTower]

so nothing really out of the ordinary with a black knight. no defects that are commin with the machine?

There are a ton of common defects but they're not the type you can identify by eyeballing the playfield.

Easiest one is look at the battery holder on the CPU board.  If it's still there odds are you're going to have corrosion issues all over the 40 pin connector, the memory circuit, and the top corner of the driver board.

If you did that to my machine I'd grab you by the shoulders, turn you around 180 degrees, and boot you a good one right in the behind as I sent you out the door.

...without selling the machine.

[Jeff AMN]

...without selling the machine.

So basically he should walk in, shake it around, and say, "well, I broke it, so now I am going to want to offer a bit less for it."

While he's at it why doesn't he just shatter the backglass and drop the price by another $100? I'm sure if he spends 10 minutes rapidly flipping the flippers he could burn them up and drop the price another $50 too. To me it would just be horrible etiquette to play the machine in an abnormal manner while you're checking it out.

[ChadTower]

The point is that he didn't break it.  Exposing intermittent problems, and the sys3-7 games all have the same design flaws that cause them, isn't breaking the machine.  It is discovering how much post-sale remediation he will have to do before he has a reliable game.

A more experienced pinball person wouldn't have to do that and would go right to the boards.  The fixes/upgrades are easy to spot if you recognize them.  You're not going to find a reliable Black Knight without at least some of those fixes.

[Jeff AMN]

I only half agree with you there though. Part of being a responsible owner of anything is knowing how to care for it. If I was looking to buy an older Williams games I'd learn up on them so I'd know what to look for without resorting to buffoonery in another man's basement.

I only know WPC games and Data East games well, so I've never looked into buying anything older. If I was to pick up, say a Black Knight, I'd probably take it as-is and learn the ropes on that machine or research what to look for deeply enough that I can do some reasonable spot checking.

[ChadTower]

That's a noble sentiment but everyone has to start somewhere.  There are more than enough flippers (no pun intended) who do ---smurfy--- jury rigs to get something out the door that I don't consider it much of a stretch to give the machine a rough game or two during evaluation.  I'm not saying he should tip it over but a bunch of hard nudging should have no effect on a reliable game and causes no damage.  He's not buying a set of dishes - it's a piece of commercial equipment.  It all depends on how the seller is presenting the thing.

[ChadTower]

Granted, you see a lot of minty Time Zones, so maybe Chad's right.

I'm not saying they are wear prone.  I'm saying they received tens of thousands more plays and years longer on location than other titles.

[akoz]

I don't think Black Knights are particularly more wear prone than other Williams games of that vintage, it's just that most of the Williams games from then are crap and nobody keeps them around.  The cabinets, playfields, and backglasses were so poorly made that they all get art damage.

i am just 3 months into pinball so i am still learning alot. So when you tell me Williams are poorly built makes me turn away from this machine.

[shardian]

Roughly playing anyone's game is a major 'party foul'. If it works and the game looks as good or better than the pics, that is all that matters. Any trivial problems after that just come with the territory of pins. Stuff can break or malfunction at any time, any place.

If someone played my pin and violently shook it past the normal amount of nudging, I would tell them to chill out.

[ChadTower]

Roughly playing anyone's game is a major 'party foul'. If it works and the game looks as good or better than the pics, that is all that matters. Any trivial problems after that just come with the territory of pins. Stuff can break or malfunction at any time, any place.

If someone played my pin and violently shook it past the normal amount of nudging, I would tell them to chill out.

Yeah, but an attempt to sell the game is not a party guest.  Would you buy a truck without dropping it into 4wd while testing it?  We're not saying he should drive it into the river.  A sys7 game with no rehab work is easy to lock up with some good nudges.

[shardian]

A sys7 game with no rehab work is easy to lock up with some good nudges.

Well that would matter...if I told you I had went through and bulletproofed the game. I don't beat on my games, and noone else is gonna beat on my games. Moderate nudging and pounding the buttons during T&F don't count as pounding on games.

Lifting and/or scooting a pinball in increments measurable in inches is what I consider abusing a game. Maybe pinheads disagree with me - I don't care.

If you come in to buy my game and violently shake it until the game screws up, I would not lower my price. I would say "I'll call you when I fix it...then never call you back". This wouldn't work on an unknowing person either. They wouldn't have a clue what you did and would be pretty pissed you broke their game.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, don't pick it up and drop it or anything.  Before the interboard connector is replaced you can lock up this era Williams game with what could be considered a rough but acceptable game.

A knowledgeable person wouldn't have to bother.  I'd just open up the backbox and look at what parts have been upgraded.  If a person told me they had bulletproofed a sys7 that still had the original 40 pin in there I'd know they are either lying or their work isn't to be trusted.  Most of the other things are recommended/optional but that connector is mandatory.  Maybe one other mandatory thing to check is the GI connectors since that is toasted on every sys3-7 game.  How they address that is a decent indicator of how much effort they put in.

[akoz]

I guess i will just ask him if he replaced the 40 pin connector. instead of tossing it off a cliff

[shardian]

I guess i will just ask him if he replaced the 40 pin connector. instead of tossing it off a cliff

Good idea.

[ChadTower]

Eyeball it too.  Maybe you won't be able to tell but it will at least make him think you can.   

Once you know what you're doing you can pretty much buy every machine as-is.  I rarely ever buy a machine "working" anymore unless I already know and trust the seller.  Even then it's "100% working but unshopped" which usually means 90-95% working in my eyes.  I'm not a condition whore but I am strict on the functionality of my machines.  They play well or I make them play well.


EDIT:  that reminds me, the left orbit switch is intermittent on both RFM and the Shadow, and it bugs the crap out of me.  Must... fix...   

[Jeff AMN]

True story, I was did a full payfield teardown, clean, and rebuild on my Jackbot. When I put it together it played like a dream, but I left one switch in the ramp shot that leads to the mini playfield adjusted incorrectly and it only intermittently triggered. I had to leave it as is for the evening because the wife and I had planned an outing with some friends. That switch bothered me all night. We didn't get back until late, so I left it and went to bed. I tossed and turned like a dad who didn't know what his child was up to and I finally jumped out of bed at 4:00am and spent 5 minutes fixing the stupid thing. I did spend the next 30 minutes playing, but after that I slept like a baby until the alarm went off.

I might have issues.

[ChadTower]

Not too long after I got RFM I tried to fix that switch.  It does work, but it's worn down, so I bent the lever so the ball would push it down further.  I dropped one of the screws.  It bounced through the playfield, hit the side of the cabinet, and rolled through a tiny opening under the driver board.  Pin2k's driver board is in the bottom of the main cabinet with a big plastic cover to protect it.  You can't get that cover off without pulling the playfield.  You can't get under the driver board without pulling the cover and the driver board.  So adjusting an accessible intermittent switch caused me to have to pull the playfield and driver board completely to find that one screw that had rolled away. 

And after all that the stupid switch is still intermittent.   Needs to be replaced.   

[shardian]

True story, I was did a full payfield teardown, clean, and rebuild on my Jackbot. When I put it together it played like a dream, but I left one switch in the ramp shot that leads to the mini playfield adjusted incorrectly and it only intermittently triggered. I had to leave it as is for the evening because the wife and I had planned an outing with some friends. That switch bothered me all night. We didn't get back until late, so I left it and went to bed. I tossed and turned like a dad who didn't know what his child was up to and I finally jumped out of bed at 4:00am and spent 5 minutes fixing the stupid thing. I did spend the next 30 minutes playing, but after that I slept like a baby until the alarm went off.

I might have issues.

Been there, done that. I tend to get irritable if I don't finish a task occasionally. I've actually had dreams where I have successfully and thoroughly done troubleshooting on a game or pin. Those dreams kick ass - multi-tasking while sleeping rules.

[ChadTower]

Finally got the chance to swap that sound PIA on the CPU last night.  Had to cut the original one out with a Dremel since I had previous tried to get it out cleanly and gave up since it's just too many tiny holes and pins with fragile pads.  Pic of the new socketed 6821 coming. 

Did not get the chance to put it back in the game.

[pinballwizard79]

Did you touch the coils first?

I am just kidding Chad.

 

[ChadTower]

Sigh.  Putting the new CPU sound PIA in didn't change a thing.  Sounds still act the same, still sound select pins 2-3 on the sound card are near zero voltage when they should be high.  Since I ordered a few PIAs I swapped the PIA on the sound card next (both are socketed now).  With both PIAs new I got 4.96v on all sound select pins but now there is no sound at all via either manually grounding pins or via the sound test.

So last night I put the original sound card PIA back in.  It returns to select pins 2-3 pulled low and only the first sound in the sound test.  I disconnect the CPU from the sound card.  Now I have 4.96v on all sound select pins.  I can manually trigger (sound select pin jumped to the ground test point) each sound but the sound test only plays one sound and then gaps.  Back to where I was before.

Here I decide to take speech out of the equation.  I add the speech select jumper back in (W1 on the sound card) and set dips to "no speech" config.  Disconnect the CPU.  I get 4.96v on all sound select pins.  The sound test is continuous now but it's only playing one sound!

I can't be sure the ROMs are 100% good so I just ordered a new set.  One of these days I'm going to get around to finding an eprom programmer.

New goal:  100% sound functionality though the sound test without speech and without the CPU connected.

[ChadTower]

Poked at it some more.  It used to boot into attract, then it did most of the time, now it never does.  I think the 5101 died.  I didn't throw some in with any of my other orders because it was working when I wrote them up.  Gotta get some in the next one.

[ChadTower]

Still waiting on the replacement ROMs to come in the mail.  Guess this vendor isn't as speedy as all of the RGP references made him out to be.

[ChadTower]

Lost patience.  Pulled Laser Cue from storage, grabbed its sound card, put it in BK.  I notice the Laser Cue sound card has a higher rev number than BK.  I also notice that I had totally forgotten how spotless the boards are in this Laser Cue.  Damn.

Now I have sounds!  Laser Cue sounds!  The sound test cycles without gaps as it should.  Now to swap the BK sound rom in and see if that works.  The sound may not be all that much different, though, even if it does.  Laser Cue isn't a speech game so this is all jumpered for no speech + it has no ribbon cable connector.

EDIT:  and, because that's the sort of project this is, I snapped a leg off the BK sound rom.  So I have to wait for the replacements to come in the mail anyway.   

[ChadTower]

Snapped a leg off a scrap IC on my bench and soldered that onto the stub.  Works!  I popped that into the Laser Cue sound board and now it's back to playing only one sound.  That probably means it's the rom that is bad.  Hopefully that's the case and when I pop the new rom in it will work... it will mean I chased a goose here for a bit but I'll just be glad to have it fully working.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Ball trough in tumbler: smooth and glinty in light, but a mostly hammered style finish.
Ball trough after polishing by hand: Mirror finish so good my wife could do her makeup using it.

Just sayin'...

Yeah, but it's not going to stay that way.  It's going to get hammered.  Plus from what I've read the shiny finish is just going to oxidize itself away anyway.

If you have the large parts plated, they'll stay looking nice for a long time...but that can get pretty expensive...

[ChadTower]

Gotta agree with jim on this one as far as the trough goes.

For future reference, That Pinball Place is a thumbs down from me as a vendor despite all of the great reviews on RGP.  Had to email him after a week for order confirmation and then after two weeks because he never mailed the chips.  At least he did respond to emails but I hate chasing vendors to actually vend once they have my money.

[shardian]

Stick with the known good vendors - pinballlife, Pbresource, Marco, Bay area. I have had nothing but excellent transactions and communication with all 4.

Matter of fact, pinballlife gets a special commendation. I recently placed and order and included 2 #44 LED's based on what my manual called for. I got them in and the actual machine uses 555's. I called pinballlife to check on a back ordered item, hoping to piggyback the correct LED's onto the backorder shipment. The backordered stuff had already shipped, and this was same day I got the original items in. I asked if there was a cheaper shipping option since all I needed was the 2 bulbs. They said they would send me a paypal request that evening for the bulbs and mail them in a cheap bubble mailer @ like $2 shipping. Instead, I get an email that says  they are sending me the bulbs at no charge. Now THAT is service.

[ChadTower]

Terry did the same thing with me for some bumper skirts.  I forgot to include them - emailed him to see if I could add them to my order - order had already shipped.  I said thanks, I'll gather some stuff up for a second order, and a couple days later I got the bumper skirts without even being told (or having ordered them).  I ended up sending him payment + a thank you beer cost.

This ROM vendor is supposed to be a known good vendor.  That's what the references on RGP say.  Not too big a deal, though, as I'll just paypal dispute it if they don't arrive after three full weeks.  If anything this makes me aware that I need my own ROM burner. 

[ChadTower]

ROMs came today.  Delayed but well packed and shipped.  I popped the sound rom into the original sound board (not the one from the Laser Cue) and BAM!  Now it cycles through 4-5 sounds with no gaps.  Hard to say if it's 4 or 5 since it's all buzzes and tones.  I cut the "no speech" jumper, reconnected the sound card, and BAM!  Now it talks!  Full sound cycle with the 4-5 sounds and a whole lot of words with no gaps.  All that troubleshooting and it turns out the rom was bad.  

Lesson:  get an eeprom writer so I can take checksums on project games and replace if necessary.  Bad roms cause phantom problems.

 

[ChadTower]

 

Just had a detailed post written up with results of the individual tests but the browser whacked it.

 

Synopsis:  sound, display, lamp tests good.  One coil issue and two coils (23 and 24) not responding but not mentioned in the op handbook.  Need to figure out if they are in the game or not.  Tons of switch issues according to the tests but they are nearly all the drop banks so it could be a single issue causing problems down the string.

[shardian]

I'm rooting for you to finally get a project done Chad! Go! Go! Go!

[ChadTower]

I'm rooting for you to finally get a project done Chad! Go! Go! Go!

    Looong way still to go on this one... this is just the setup. 

[ChadTower]

One coil issue and two coils (23 and 24) not responding but not mentioned in the op handbook.  Need to figure out if they are in the game or not. 

System7 games will also test coil numbers 23,24,25 (25 is the flipper relay, but 23/24 are unused in all system7 games).

23 and 24 resolved.

[ChadTower]

Manually reset the drop targets and ALL of the switch errors went away - I guess the switch test assumes they are going to be up.  Apparently also two (but not all four) of the trough switches and one other are on the same string.

Next see if the bank coils are actually resetting them because I would swear I ran the coil test first and the bank coils did fire.

[ChadTower]

(this would all be a more logical sequence if I hadn't lost that long post)

Closer inspection of the drop target coils shows that coil 2 fires in test but does not fire with enough force to reset the bank.  It does not appear to be mechanically restricted and is firing with a lot less force than the two good ones.  This is the lower left bank.

The lower right bank coil 3 does not fire at all.  That is the one failure I'm getting in individual coil tests.

The other two banks are firing strong and resetting, at least with the playfield up.