Project Natal - XBOX 360 finds the Wii killer?

[Ginsu Victim]

If they can pull off even half of this, it might be decent for the casual gamer.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/01/project-natal-video-features-smack-talking-scruffy-teenagers/

[Ginsu Victim]

Which is why I pointed out that it was aimed at casual gamers. This doesn't interest me, but I saw no one else here talking about it.

[versapak]

Meh 20 years ago I was playing a game demo where you played a virtual drum set by waving your arms around in front of a camera.

This crap is old technology, let's see if it goes anywhere.

No, the idea is old, but the tech definitely is not. Aside from the hardware aspect being different with stereoscopic cameras, there is some massive improvements on the software side of things with facial, joint and voice recognition.

All reports are that it really does work well.

[HaRuMaN]

Isn't this the same thing (basically) as the Playstation Eyetoy? 

[versapak]

Isn't this the same thing (basically) as the Playstation Eyetoy? 

The playstation eyetoy is just a webcam.

This new device from MS is a stereoscopic camera that reads depth. Yeah, they are both cameras that you hook up to a console, but their abilities not the same at all.


[edit]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/989/989269p1.html

[versapak]

Stereoscopic?  Sounds like twice the suck.

...or maybe it sounds like a camera that has a depth perception similar to that of our very own.


I guess if your just gonna hate to hate, then whatever, but there are reports from people that it does work, and works well.

[MrMojoZ]

Anyone saying this is just an Eye Toy clone is either ignorant of what it can actually do or just wants to hate on the Xbox anyway they can.

[Ginsu Victim]

The first thing I thought when I saw the girl driving the racecar was, "Man, that's gonna KILL your arms!"

[Dartful Dodger]

The first thing I thought when I saw the girl driving the racecar was, "Man, that's gonna KILL your arms!"

I was intrigued when it started, but then I saw that racing game demo.  The first think I thought of was, that game isn’t going to know where the girl ends and the other family members begin.

This time I agree with pj.

Wish for an Xbox accessory in one hand and poop in the other, see which hand actually fills up.

[MrMojoZ]

I was intrigued when it started, but then I saw that racing game demo.  The first think I thought of was, that game isn’t going to know where the girl ends and the other family members begin.

This time I agree with pj.

Wish for an Xbox accessory in one hand and poop in the other, see which hand actually fills up.

You people saw the live demonstrations of this and not just the commerical, right? From your comments, you don't know what all this does. Facial recognition plus spatial limb tracking means it sure does know where the girl ends and the other family member begin. Thats the whole point.

 I expect people like PBJ to wallow in negativity but If they can deliever on this it is going to be interesting. Dismissing it now is a mistake.

[SNAAKE]

interesting. it might actually work. at least the idea is neat.

time will tell!

[hypernova]

What's the cost, I wonder...

What's already been pointed out, racing games will render arms fatigued very quickly.  And this is like the Wii.  There aren't any complex games that can utilize this.  I'm not about to go CoD with my arms holding an imaginary pistol or rifle, and ducking or crawling on the damn floor.

I wouldn't want to play that skateboarding game in the winter.   BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTT!

[Dartful Dodger]

You people saw the live demonstrations of this and not just the commerical, right? From your comments, you don't know what all this does.

No, I just saw the commercial.
Since I'd love for this to be real I gave you the benefit of the doubt and clicked on the other link, then clicked on  the onstage demo from earlier today Which opened up a page titled E3 2009: Demo video which showed a longer commercial.

There were positive comments about how the camera worked, but it sounds like it works the same as those camera games they make for kids 3-5.  Where they see themselves on the TV(not just an avatar) and bounce a cartoon soccer ball on their head by moving their head and body.

If you can post a link to a real demo video please do so, if you can only produce an article written by a guy who wants to stroke Microsoft's ego so he gets invited back next year, don't bother.

[AtomSmasher]

Both this and Sony's new motion/camera controls are very cool and the demos were awesome.  I think Microsofts is a bit cooler just because you don't have to hold the stupid looking wands, but I think Sony's is much more likely to work properly.

[DJ_Izumi]

I really want to see an easter egg in this Milo program, where after some time, the boy becomes painfully selfaware like the Holodeck gone wrong, realizes that he exists only in a limited virtual box surrounded by invisiable walls and that he can't escape.  He has a panic attack, pounds on the screen and pleads for you to find him a way out, when he realizes he has no escape, he walks into the lake to take his own life.  It should then fade to black and hang a bit, then say 'Reloading Data' and he should turn up good as new as if nothing happened, leaving the user to fear it ever happening agian.

[AcidArmitage]

I really want to see an easter egg in this Milo program, where after some time, the boy becomes painfully selfaware like the Holodeck gone wrong, realizes that he exists only in a limited virtual box surrounded by invisiable walls and that he can't escape.  He has a panic attack, pounds on the screen and pleads for you to find him a way out, when he realizes he has no escape, he walks into the lake to take his own life.  It should then fade to black and hang a bit, then say 'Reloading Data' and he should turn up good as new as if nothing happened, leaving the user to fear it ever happening agian.

...wow 

[versapak]

I really want to see an easter egg in this Milo program, where after some time, the boy becomes painfully selfaware like the Holodeck gone wrong, realizes that he exists only in a limited virtual box surrounded by invisiable walls and that he can't escape.  He has a panic attack, pounds on the screen and pleads for you to find him a way out, when he realizes he has no escape, he walks into the lake to take his own life.  It should then fade to black and hang a bit, then say 'Reloading Data' and he should turn up good as new as if nothing happened, leaving the user to fear it ever happening agian.

 


 

[massive88]

I really want to see an easter egg in this Milo program, where after some time, the boy becomes painfully selfaware like the Holodeck gone wrong, realizes that he exists only in a limited virtual box surrounded by invisiable walls and that he can't escape.  He has a panic attack, pounds on the screen and pleads for you to find him a way out, when he realizes he has no escape, he walks into the lake to take his own life.  It should then fade to black and hang a bit, then say 'Reloading Data' and he should turn up good as new as if nothing happened, leaving the user to fear it ever happening agian.

   Awesome.

If Milo works half as good as it appears it does, and this is just one developer of moderately good, but not great, games working with alpha/beta hardware; then Natal could be seriously interesting in the next coming years.

As for the demo video, a lot of that was crap, I was thinking during the racing one, when the dad got up to change the tires "Wtf, no one wants to do that, thats work, and annoying, this game blows"

I dont see where the huge difference would be from having the "tactile feedback" of a wii mote vs nothing at all.  What I would like to see, is games that do not abandon the controller, but can incorporate some of these elements in as well.  Think like Time Crises ducking, or just utilizing the facial recognition features.  The last thing I want though, is my Xbox to become a wii, where I have to wave my hand just because I can, and some ---smurfy--- developer put it into the game.

[HaRuMaN]

It could be interesting if the pull it off correctly.  Imagine it in use for a game like Fight Night Round 4, now that would be awesome. 

[Dartful Dodger]

Playing Police 911 made my quads sore, in a good way.  It'd be nice if they figured this out, but I think we're going ot have to wait for the next generation of consoles.

[Ginsu Victim]

I showed this video to my wife last night and she said, "WHY DON'T THESE LOSERS JUST GO OUTSIDE?!?"

[hypernova]

It's hot and muggy. 

[massive88]

Here is the Milo Demo if anyone hasnt seen it yet.

The old dude talking is the head of the Fable game studio, which explains why Milo looks like hes out of Fable 3.  And Claire and bad to look at either.

[Ginsu Victim]

wow....

Just like the other stuff, if they even halfway pull it off, it could be neat.

[massive88]

IGN account of interacting with Milo on the show floor:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html

[Namco]

Here's what I want it for. Playing a shooter with the controller and when I put the controller down, it pauses for me. Or when I want to throw a grenade, I can actually pretend to throw a grenade and pull it off with accuracy. When I want to taunt someone let me be able to flip-off the screen and have my dude in the game give the dude the bird.

[Dartful Dodger]

IGN account of interacting with Milo on the show floor:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html

In that article after being "scanned" the author started playing, but then during his demo someone stepped in front of him and by doing so took control of the game.  That means the scan is as pointless as the scan on the Wii fit.

Measuring ... measuring... measuring... 

Also there have been very successful karaoke and band games that require singing, why haven't any of those companies succeeded in this imaginary word/voice recognition?

I'm calling BS on this whole thing.  It'll be no more reliable than the Wii, it might even be less because the Wii is putting all of its resources into the motion detection, this is just a gimmick for the PS3 and Xbox, so neither of them are putting any real resources into it.

[massive88]

In that article after being "scanned" the author started playing, but then during his demo someone stepped in front of him and by doing so took control of the game.  That means the scan is as pointless as the scan on the Wii fit.

Where did it say that at all?

He said someone usurped his turn, but when he got his turn, he got scanned, then had interaction.

[versapak]

In that article after being "scanned" the author started playing, but then during his demo someone stepped in front of him and by doing so took control of the game.  That means the scan is as pointless as the scan on the Wii fit.

Where did it say that at all?

He said someone usurped his turn, but when he got his turn, he got scanned, then had interaction.

Exactly. No one jumped in during his turn.


Basically someone simply butted in line.

[Dartful Dodger]

I misread it.

The reviewer never played the game he just watched a Microsoft employee play it.

This is the proof that this is real?

If it happened the way I first thought it did, I’d be less skeptical.

[Malenko]

lets see it come out before we start beating the crap out of it, kk?

[versapak]

I misread it.

The reviewer never played the game he just watched a Microsoft employee play it.

This is the proof that this is real?

If it happened the way I first thought it did, I’d be less skeptical.

Holy crap dude! 


The guy's coworker played.

Then another guy butted in line.

Then the guy that wrote the article played.


Each of them played a different segment of the demo.

[Dartful Dodger]

I final had time to watch some of E3.
That PS3 wand thing actually looks doable and awesome.

That eye thing on the other hand looks as useless as the Natal.

[Bender]

I have to say I was sceptical
but the demo was very interesting and impressive
it all comes down to execution
if they can make it work it will actually be revolutionary much better than the gimmicky wii controls (which are still quite fun)
I love the idea of getting rid of all those plastic accessories
as for the fatigue factor this is just a demo I'm sure there will be ways to steer without holding your arms up in the air the whole time
the real creative possibilities for this are endless
can't wait to see what they do with his

we'll have to wait and see

[hypernova]

Sony's wands look like the auditing devices for Scientology.

Those devices, of course, look like they need just a couple of AAs, and they'll be a woman's best friend.

So by the transitive property...

Getting past the humor, I hope, and doubt 100%, that all those ps3 and 360 hardcore gamers who are gushing over their respective motion control systems realize one thing.  It was Nintendo's wildly successful banking on this technology that opened the door for them.  N's may not be the best, but it really got the ball rolling.  The PS eyetoy?  No, it wasn't exactly popular, so it really didn't push this tech as much as Nintendo did.

[ViciousXUSMC]

I have seen a few vids for this, its so blatantly obvious that it was scripted and programed/rendered just for advertisment.  I realy feel bad for the person that thinks what these demo videos are showing is going to be what you really get when it comes out.

Tech just is not there yet (esp for consumer market) it will happen one day but its not going to be cheap, its not going to be run by a xbox 360 and its not going to be anytime soon I do no think.

[Namco]

I have seen a few vids for this, its so blatantly obvious that it was scripted and programed/rendered just for advertisment.  I realy feel bad for the person that thinks what these demo videos are showing is going to be what you really get when it comes out.

Tech just is not there yet (esp for consumer market) it will happen one day but its not going to be cheap, its not going to be run by a xbox 360 and its not going to be anytime soon I do no think.

Um, the Natal stuff was demoed for hundreds and hundreds of people on the E3 show floor. It works and multiple objective 3rd parties have reported that the tech works really well. As for "awesome" stuff like Ricochet and Milo, well Ricochet is a very rudimentary implementation and Milo is very pie in the sky. The stuff that comes out in the home market is going to be markedly better for the most part.

[Necroticart]

While the Natal demo was interesting. It serves to hurt hardcore gamers as Microsoft is seeing the mass amount of money that the wii is getting, for easier to design casual games and it's apprant in the Nintendo E3 line up that it works,  as only a few games were shown that took any skill to make.  Now what really impressed me was Sony's tech and game line up as it was mainly focused at the hardcore gamers. Sony motion controller blew me away with how precise it was I'm really looking forward to playing an FPS with this new tech all in all I do think the 360 will give the wii a run for its money but I see Sony coming out on the top again.

[versapak]

While the Natal demo was interesting. It serves to hurt hardcore gamers as Microsoft is seeing the mass amount of money that the wii is getting, for easier to design casual games and it's apprant in the Nintendo E3 line up that it works,  as only a few games were shown that took any skill to make.  Now what really impressed me was Sony's tech and game line up as it was mainly focused at the hardcore gamers. Sony motion controller blew me away with how precise it was I'm really looking forward to playing an FPS with this new tech all in all I do think the 360 will give the wii a run for its money but I see Sony coming out on the top again.

Huh?

The PS3 controller is just like a higher resolution wiimote, and there is absolutely no difference between MS's driving motivation with Natal and Sony's with their glowing ball on a stick doohickey. It is ALL (as I saw coined elsewhere) Wiinis envy.

That being said, I am excited for both. I like the idea of motion controls both peripheral based and not, and there is nothing saying that physical props or controls can't also be done with Natal as well (Just because you don't have to hold a lightsaber hilt, doesn't mean you can't). I think there are some really great things that can be implemented.

[hypernova]

I assume the PS3 wand will have both batteries and a rumble feature.  So it should easily double as a motorized pleasure toy.

[Necroticart]

Hypernova I'm not even going to comment on your post but please add something constructive to the boards if your going to make a post.

As for Natal it would be beneficial for microsoft to add some kind of hand held device as I don't see how you can fire a gun or light up say a lightsaber without some kind of trigger or button. If they don't it makes me think they are going the route of casual play, as I don't see them making a halo game with this tech, As for Sony I think they have the right Idea by having found a middle ground between Nintendo and microsoft.  as I stated before I can see using the Sony tech to play a fps with pin point accuracy or say a lightsaber game given you have full motion control of the device. Either way I hope they all do well for competition purposes my hope is they concentrate on the Hardcore gamer and don't get left out like nintendo is doing.

[Dartful Dodger]

Tech just is not there yet (esp for consumer market) it will happen one day but its not going to be cheap, its not going to be run by a xbox 360 and its not going to be anytime soon I do no think.

I was at a multimedia conference this weekend.  OMG!

What the heck happened in the last few months?
I'm spending too much time here and not enough on the tech webpages.

Someone was using Flash and it's web cam feature to have Flash interact with the guy/movement in the video.

Ok, it was really basic compared to what Microsoft and Sony are alleging, but if some clown using Flash can do these basic tricks, iit's not as farfetched as I first believed that MS and Sony's  teams can develope this stuff.

...although I still don't trust the demo video or an article written by a guy whose company sells advertising space to MS and wants to be invited back next year.

[versapak]

...although I still don't trust the demo video or an article written by a guy whose company sells advertising space to MS and wants to be invited back next year.

Well you could always trust the other hundreds of positive impressions of the tech.


I wouldn't just trust one guys opinion either, but the mass response to it is overwhelmingly positive.

[versapak]

I dunno, man, I just can't shake that image of a crowd of us standing around this same kind of thing in 1990 at the Boston Computer Museum.

Or seeing it again ~1991 at Incredible Universe.

You'd think a grown man would have been disappointed enough by VR promises over the years not to get his hopes up, VERSAPAK.  (still waiting on my Genesis and Jaguar VR equipment here...)

heheh

What can I say...


'91 was almost 20 years ago now, and technology has come a long way.

The Wii isn't really my thing, but it has compelled people to think outside the box, and that could be a great thing go forward. I am really excited to see what the PS3 and 360 can do with the tech.

Maybe it will be a bunch of garbage, but hey... It is something to look forward to all the same. I still get to enjoy the present as well.

I am forever optimistic about technology like this.

[shmokes]

This is incredibly unlikely to take off.  Sure, the tech will be incorporated into the next iterations of the Playstation and Xbox, but you can't very easily release an expensive new peripheral like this in the middle of a console cycle.  Of course Rock Band and Wii Fit fly in the face of this truism, but both of those games use peripherals that are very specific to the task.  It's possible that one or both of them will be packed with some amazing game that will generate so much word of mouth and press that the device will take off, but it's pretty unlikely.  This will be just like the eye toy not because the tech is the same, but because the dynamics are the same.

edit: oh yeah, and maybe lots of people got to try Milo and had a good experience, but anyone who believes Molineux's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- line about Claire's demo not being scripted has a severe case of gullibility.  Yeah, there just happened to be a blank sheet of paper and a marker sitting there in case their conversation happened to go in that direction.   

[versapak]

This is incredibly unlikely to take off.  Sure, the tech will be incorporated into the next iterations of the Playstation and Xbox, but you can't very easily release an expensive new peripheral like this in the middle of a console cycle.  Of course Rock Band and Wii Fit fly in the face of this truism, but both of those games use peripherals that are very specific to the task.  It's possible that one or both of them will be packed with some amazing game that will generate so much word of mouth and press that the device will take off, but it's pretty unlikely.  This will be just like the eye toy not because the tech is the same, but because the dynamics are the same.

edit: oh yeah, and maybe lots of people got to try Milo and had a good experience, but anyone who believes Molineux's ---smurf-poop--- line about Claire's demo not being scripted has a severe case of gullibility.  Yeah, there just happened to be a blank sheet of paper and a marker sitting there in case their conversation happened to go in that direction.  

Well, yeah, of course it was somewhat scripted. It was a tech demo, and glimpse of the kind of things that could potentially be done.

Milo isn't even at all what I'd be excited about seeing.


As for it taking off...

http://kotaku.com/5287069/natal-launch-will-be-as-big-as-360s


They are looking to launch this thing right, but who knows if it will succeed or not. There is plenty of history to say it won't, but then the gaming marketplace today is a totally different thing, and there are examples of how success with such things in the present.

If they can truly launch it with games and experiences that matter, then it can easily succeed. If it is a bunch of shovelware crap with no real appeal beyond the novelty, then it probably won't.

I already got rid of one Wii, and I am certainly not looking for another, so...

[massive88]

This was interesting news: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10254466-56.html?tag=rtcol;pop

[shmokes]

If they can truly launch it with games and experiences that matter, then it can easily succeed. If it is a bunch of shovelware crap with no real appeal beyond the novelty, then it probably won't.

Of course, the Wii directly contradicts this statement.   

[versapak]

If they can truly launch it with games and experiences that matter, then it can easily succeed. If it is a bunch of shovelware crap with no real appeal beyond the novelty, then it probably won't.

Of course, the Wii directly contradicts this statement.  

Well... Yeah.

[hypernova]

Hypernova I'm not even going to comment on your post but please add something constructive to the boards if your going to make a post.

By pointing it out, you are commenting on my post.

We're all basically speculating as to how a grand success or a grand failure these are going to be or "it would be neat/cool if" scenarios.  So no one's really adding anything to the conversation that isn't already common knowledge, or is just a plain opinion.  So....

Now.  Has anyone seen Necroticart's sense of humor?  He seems to have misplaced it since I poked fun at Sony's phallic controllers, which SOMEONE would have eventually done.

[shmokes]

All I know is that you type out generic quote tags when there is a convenient button right there that will fill in proper quote tags for you.   Therefore I have no idea whom you are quoting and thus cannot write intelligently about it.

[hypernova]

Because then it quotes the whole post.  And I don't want the whole post.  It wastes space.  Sure, I could remove all the parts that aren't needed, but that wastes my time.  I hate wasting time and space. 

The person it's meant for always knows what they wrote.  He just seems to be pulling some fanboy comments.  If I wanted those, I'd visit gamefaqs.com or view responses to a gamespot/ign article.

Now I would hope that Sony would consider changing their design, just a little.  I can see myself getting a PS3.  Originally I was thinking of a 360, but my mind keeps leaning towards PS3 lately.

as I stated before I can see using the Sony tech to play a fps with pin point accuracy

Even with a fake gun to hold, your arms are going to get tired.  Holding an imaginary gun...good luck on keeping your aim dead on.  Lots of us are getting on in our age, and maintaining a steady reticule will be next to impossible, and fatigue will only be compounded.

[shmokes]

The quote button is still faster.  You have to highlight the text you don't want and hit delete, but that's no slower than highlighting the text you want to copy/paste under the method you use.  And the end result is far superior.  Remember, this isn't personal messaging.  It's a public forum.  Your posts are read by more than the person it's meant for.   

[DJ_Izumi]

Even with a fake gun to hold, your arms are going to get tired.  Holding an imaginary gun...good luck on keeping your aim dead on.  Lots of us are getting on in our age, and maintaining a steady reticule will be next to impossible, and fatigue will only be compounded.

Not that hard to do partical quotes with full info.

Anyway I agree, with my light gun games I have to take a break after 15-20mins because my arms get tired of constantly holding the gun out in a shooting position.  I see similar issues with say, the steering wheel simulation they showed.  With a racing wheel you can use the wheel for support, but if you're grasping onto thin air, you're supporting your arms outward and pretending to steer, they'll get sore fairly quickly.

On the other hand, the block breaker type motions looked promising.

[hypernova]

Hell.  If either made a Wii Sports type knockoff, but better (more holes and courses for golf, same level of complexity, more types of swings in tennis...bowling can't really be improved upon,) it would be sweet.  I love the golf with friends.  Tiger Woods gets a little too complex.

[Aabra]

The biggest problem with all of these camera technologies is that they simply can't process fast movements.  Notice in the milo demo how slowly she is moving?  Nice, natural movements the entire time.  The moment your arm goes behind your back the camera can't see it and thus loses track of it.  Quick jabs in a fighting game never work very well because by the time it realizes that you did it (if it even does), you've already finished the movement creating all sorts of lag.

I'm glad that they're working on this technology and I really do hope that it works like advertised but I have serious doubts.  We'll have to wait and see.

[TPB]

Sony's phallic controllers

A bit of humour never goes astray.   


I reckon Sony's wand has more promise than project natal.

But the "here & now" is what matters most, and Nintendo seems to have scored another raging success with the Wii MotionPlus.  EA developers were reportedly taken aback at the accuracy of the MotionPlus adaptor.   

[hypernova]

I've since taken back my Tiger Woods comment.  That game is pretty sweet when using WM+.

[skim36]

Nintendo has stated they looked at motion capture technology when they were developing the wii and decided against it.

[versapak]

Nintendo has stated they looked at motion capture technology when they were developing the wii and decided against it.

Well, it was a few years ago now, and it would have cost more money, and given that the wii is little more than a gamecube with a new controller...

They were clearly looking to put as little $ into R&D as possible.


They found their thing, but I wouldn't necessarily look at anything that they decided not to do as something that is inferior.

[ahofle]

I would be shocked if Natal will ever be remotely useful for 'hardcore' gaming.  I can't imagine playing any 'hardcore' game where there is a 200-300 millisecond delay for the camera and CPU to try and guess what I'm doing.  And that's even assuming it will figure it all out perfectly, which I highly doubt after watching the demo (I found it funny when he tried to show the bottom of his shoe unsuccessfully).  I also find it amusing it's not considered gimmicky by the people who said the same about the Wii-mote control. 

[Dartful Dodger]

I want to play Police 911 type games in my living room.

Also the Wii-mote is gimmicky because it's a cool feature for a last generation system.