VectorMAME control panels

[ChadTower]

Matthew Fisher and I have been discussing this for a while via PM.  I've been googling and forum searching and it seems a lot of people have said they want a VectorMAME cab but few have built them and fewer documented them.  A lot of guys right now are jumping on this last run of ZVGs so right now is a good time to drum up some solid discussion.  I'd like to keep this focused on the CP as much as possible but of course there needs to be discussion on the games as the gameset defines the CP requirements.  As I see it there are a few issues immediately apparent:

• split into two sets?   color vs b/w
• swappable or one versatile CP
• large dedicated controllers
• which games are essential vs which can be left out
• further subsetting games with commonality of the CP

Breakdown of control requirements (as original):

• 2 buttons - each player     - Armor Attack
• 4 buttons                        -  Star Castle, War of the Worlds, Eliminator, Space War, Space Fury
• 5 buttons                        -  Space Duel, Asteroids, Asteroids Deluxe, Gravitar
• 6 buttons                        -  Solar Quest
• Star Wars yoke                - Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back
• Analog flight stick w/fire    - Red Baron, Tail Gunner, Aztarac
• Spinner                           - Tempest, Zektor, Tac Scan, Omega Race, Aztarac, Cosmic Chasm, Star Trek, Boxing Bugs, Omega Race
• Trackball                         - Quantum
• Thrust lever                     - Lunar Lander
• Dual 2 ways                     - Battlezone
• Dual 8 way sticks               - Black Widow, QB-3
• Dual 8 way topfires            - Warrior
• Roller                              - Major Havoc
• Driving (wheel/pedal/shift)  - Speed Freak
• Dual 9 button numeric pads - Sundance
• 10 button keypad              - Space Wars

Color:  Space Duel, Gravitar, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Tempest, Quantum, Black Widow, Major Havoc, Zektor, Aztarac, Boxing Bugs, Star Trek, Cosmic Chasm, Tac Scan, Space Fury, Eliminator,

B/W:  Asteroids, Asteroids Deluxe, Red Baron, Lunar Lander, Battlezone, Warrior, Speed Freak, Sundance, Omega Race, Solar Quest, Space War,



Other relevant design issues/facts:

• Overlays are only required for Armor Attack and Warrior - MAME simulates these for you
• b/w games can be played on the color monitors - the Amplifone is better at b/w than the others

Keep in mind this is all still in progress so corrections or additions are welcome.

[Matthew Fisher]

I'll chime in first with my approach.  I went with multiple panels, as there was no way that I could cram all of the stuff I wanted onto one.  The main problem is the diversity of control schemes used for vector games combined with the small number of games and the overall very high quality of them.  Who would build a vectormame and not want to play Star Wars?  Well, then you need a yoke or analog joystick, at the very least.  Or Tempest, Major Havoc, Star Wars, Tac Scan, Omega Race, and Zektor?  Then you need a spinner.  Quantum-trackball.  Lunar Lander-thruster.  When you think about it, about the only scheme that wasn't used on a vector game was the "eight-way JS with 4-6 buttons on the right" pattern that every other mame machine on the planet has.  In the end, just too many compromises with a single panel, at least for me.  With swappables, I can also add more panels as time and money permit.

I haven't really given the B/W color issue mush thought, although it's clear that there's much less diversity in the B/W games.  A lot of them (most?) are playable  with the ol' "Asteroids" layout. 

As for which are essential games, there are only a few real dogs, with the craptastic Barrier standing out...   I'm also not really into most of the other Cinematronics games (Starhawk, Ripoff, Solar Quest, Star Castle, etc.), but that is just one guy's opinion.  Heresy, I know, but I'm pretty much an Atari guy...

[ChadTower]

Who would build a vectormame and not want to play Star Wars? 

Me.     I have a Star Wars project waiting in my queue.  I'd rather have the full upright and it does eliminate one of the two biggest dedicated controllers (the other being Lunar Lander).

Or Tempest

Same thing, I have a Tempest, though it doesn't help much here given the other spinner games.  The spinner is a pretty small issue overall.  Perhaps a Tempest could be converted to a spinner based VectorMAME cab with a CP for Major Havoc, Tac Scan, Omega Race, and Zektor.  I'd hate to do that to mine but it could probably be done in a reversible manner.

I haven't really given the B/W color issue mush thought, although it's clear that there's much less diversity in the B/W games.  A lot of them (most?) are playable  with the ol' "Asteroids" layout. 

I'm thinking the issue here is the display for the most part.  That causes you to have to split them out and if you can leverage that fact to logically split the requirements into a pair of simpler CPs it is worth doing.  As I've mentioned I am not a fan of the Asteroids layout anyway.  I am tempted to grab a junky Space Duel cp and put a couple of 8 ways in it.  That would be a good test to see if maybe some of those Asteroids games could be played well with a Black Widow layout.

As for which are essential games, there are only a few real dogs, with the craptastic Barrier standing out...   I'm also not really into most of the other Cinematronics games (Starhawk, Ripoff, Solar Quest, Star Castle, etc.), but that is just one guy's opinion.  Heresy, I know, but I'm pretty much an Atari guy...

I'm pretty heavily an Atari guy, too, but there are a couple of games that really drive my desire to do this.  Red Baron is right at the top of that list.

[RayB]

There's also the issue of overlays...

[Matthew Fisher]

I think making both a B/W and a color would help with the control panel issues, but how much depends (again) on which games you want to play.  You wouldn't need a spinner on a B/W panel unless you wanted to play Omega Race (and maybe Speed Freak).  You wouldn't need analog unless you wanted to play Red Baron, Tailgunner, or Lunar Lander (maybe).  Ok, no trackball needed.  No need for 8-ways unless you wanted to play Warrior, and so on.  I think I could live with a dual Asteroids layout (or use the two-ways that Chad mentioned) on a B/W machine, but others may not.  I am, like Chad, lucky enough to own some of my faves, like Red Baron (in my repair queue), so I don't care if they're in the multivector. 

As for color, it just seems like every darn game had different controls.  You lose the spinner, you're giving up a lot of great games, same with the analog yoke or joystick (unless you already own them  ).  Giving up eight-ways loses Black Widow and QB-3, two must-haves for me. 

I would like to have two machines someday, and perhaps I will set up a dedicated B/W one if Zektor comes out with a Windows model of the ZVG someday.  I will still probably stick with multiple panels, though.  You're already limited to around 35 games, most of which are pretty good, so losing any is a pretty big deal, in my view.  One of these days, I'm even going to set up a Sundance panel...   

[Matthew Fisher]

There's also the issue of overlays...

Ah, overlays.  I'm still toying with the idea of decasing an LCD monitor to use for this purpose, but I still wonder if the blank sections of overlays like on Warrior (I know, it's not really an overlay) would be clear or black on a decased LCD monitor.  Does anybody know?  I suppose it would be possible to edit them to be translucent if they were, in fact, opaque...   

[ChadTower]

How many games have overlays that matter?  Do they have actual function other than aesthetic?

I have started to document the specific original controls by game in the original post.

[Matthew Fisher]

How many games have overlays that matter?  Do they have actual function other than aesthetic?

I have started to document the specific original controls by game in the original post.

No overlays really matter, except Armor Attack and Warrior, but that has been taken care of in mame, which projects the barriers onto the screens as vectors, when they were not there originally. 

Shoot, somewhere I have either a list or spreadsheet listing all of the control schemes for the vectors, but for now I'll add:

six buttons: Solar Quest (this will also take care of all of the four and five button games)
Analog joy w/ trigger, spinner and one button: Aztarac
Spinner: Cosmic Chasm, Boxing Bugs, Star Trek (this has four additional buttons, which takes care of all of the spinner games, none of which have any more than two)
flight yoke w/ two buttons, throttle lever (actually adjusts height, not speed) TopGunner
two way joys w/ topfire on one:  battlezone
2 9 button pads (I think) w/ four buttons in the middle: Sundance
2 8 ways: QB-3

[ChadTower]

I should know this but I don't... can you play the b/w games on the color monitors?

[Matthew Fisher]

I should know this but I don't... can you play the b/w games on the color monitors?

Yes, and the ones that have overlays are colored accordingly, if you turn that option on.  Another thing to note here is that while the Amp (strangely enough) doesn't look all that much better than a 6100 on color games, the extra resolution makes a difference on the B/W games that must be seen to be believed. 

[ChadTower]

Okay, noted that... though if one were to break it down by color or b/w for CP reasons the Amp vs WG wouldn't matter as much.  I'm leaning more towards separate cabs for each to simplify the CP sets for now but we'll see how that works out as more analysis is done.

[Ummon]

As I've never been one for original controls set-ups, I'd do the regular mame panel, except in the case of analog controls, and then I'd just use the SW yoke machine. Spinner for Major Havoc, as I do now. I'd skip Lunar Lander.

[fa001]

If you are planning on using the ZVG setup than there is an issue with a menu program. The frontend programs do not draw vectors and the vector menu that comes with the board does not list all the vector games discussed here. Also the vector menu does not use an analog controller so if ones setup is using an analog controller (yoke) then something must be added to select games.

[ChadTower]

If you are planning on using the ZVG setup than there is an issue with a menu program. The frontend programs do not draw vectors and the vector menu that comes with the board does not list all the vector games discussed here. Also the vector menu does not use an analog controller so if ones setup is using an analog controller (yoke) then something must be added to select games.

Hrm... that's good to know, I'll add that above.  I wonder if the source for the front end is available.  I can fix that if it is.

[fa001]

As I understand it the source for the vectorMenu program is not available. The coder had a harddrive crash and lost it.

Not an issue if one is making a "dedicated" cab. Just set Mame to run the one game on startup.

One can also select blindly, like right fire button gives starware and left fire button gives empire strikes back.

[Matthew Fisher]

If you are planning on using the ZVG setup than there is an issue with a menu program. The frontend programs do not draw vectors and the vector menu that comes with the board does not list all the vector games discussed here. Also the vector menu does not use an analog controller so if ones setup is using an analog controller (yoke) then something must be added to select games.

This should only be a problem if the yoke is the ONLY thing on the control panel.  I know fuseball's frontend is not configurable, but how you wire the buttons/joysticks is.  Find out which keypresses the frontend is looking for (I can't recall at the moment) and wire some of the play or trigger buttons to those spots on your encoder.  Then change the settings in the games, which are configurable from the tab menu. 

Are SW and ESB the only games you are planning to play on this?  If so, why not just boot directly into one or the other from the autoexec.bat and keep a keyboard handy to use the command line when you want to switch? 

[Level42]

Uhm....did anyone think about horizontal and vertical games ?


And I don't agree that there's not much difference between an Amplifone and a 6100 in color games.....

[Matthew Fisher]

Uhm....did anyone think about horizontal and vertical games ?


And I don't agree that there's not much difference between an Amplifone and a 6100 in color games.....

Well, that's a tough one.  There aren't that many vertical ones, but Tempest, Quantum, and Tac Scan are among them, some of the best of the lot.  I've toyed with the idea of being able to rotate, but just haven't gotten to it yet.  I find that once I get into a game, I don't really notice that it's a little smaller... 

I guess it's hard to quantify the difference between the Amp and 6100 on color games.  I do see a definite difference, and it seems to vary depending on the game.  I suppose what I should have said is that the difference was not as big as I expected, but still quite large.  I'm certainly not going to switch back to the 6100...   

[ChadTower]

Uhm....did anyone think about horizontal and vertical games ?

It's a good point and one we'll get to as part of the analysis.  I don't think it is going to buy us much in CP design, though, given how few vertical games there are.

[Level42]

Uhm....did anyone think about horizontal and vertical games ?


And I don't agree that there's not much difference between an Amplifone and a 6100 in color games.....

I'm certainly not going to switch back to the 6100...   

Ha, that's something I do agree with

It's not just the resolution. I keep having the feeling that the WG is not entirely capable of handling SW's vectors.

Starhawk is another vertical but in all honesty....that's not the best of the lot. I had the privilege to play it on Speleo's dedicated cab. My son loved it though....

[fa001]

Are SW and ESB the only games you are planning to play on this?  If so, why not just boot directly into one or the other from the autoexec.bat and keep a keyboard handy to use the command line when you want to switch? 

The two issues for this control panel thread then are:
1) In addition to the Play controls one may need Game Selection controls.
2) Since one is viewing a vector screen and most frontends do not do vectors, the control panel may need some kind of display device. Typing a new command line without being able to see what one is typing could be tough and not for all players. But perhaps just a seven segment readout could show which game is going to come up.

[Matthew Fisher]

The two issues for this control panel thread then are:
1) In addition to the Play controls one may need Game Selection controls.
2) Since one is viewing a vector screen and most frontends do not do vectors, the control panel may need some kind of display device. Typing a new command line without being able to see what one is typing could be tough and not for all players. But perhaps just a seven segment readout could show which game is going to come up.

I've toyed with the idea of putting a small LCD somewhere behind the smoked plexi or mounting one above the monitor area, but have not yet done so.  Maybe something like this, although the prices on these things seems awfully high for the application:

http://store.earthlcd.com/LCD-Products/5-LCD-Kits

Right now, I have a small monitor just sitting on top of the cab for when I need to use the command line, change settings, etc.  It doesn't look the best, but it does the job...

[ChadTower]

Seems to me there are lots of small LCDs out there... from consoles, from cars, etc.  You might have to get a video card with composite out but it's a whole lot cheaper than those things.

[fa001]

I was thinking of a display more like these:

http://www.matrixorbital.com/

They could fit on a control panel and cost less. And of course if one could recycle one from a used consumer device that would be great.

[Matthew Fisher]

I was thinking of a display more like these:

http://www.matrixorbital.com/

They could fit on a control panel and cost less. And of course if one could recycle one from a used consumer device that would be great.

That does look a little nicer, as does the price, at least for the two-line LCD model.  I admit that I am somewhat computer-illiterate, but I couldn't tell how you hook one of these up to your PC, much less tell it what to display...

[ChadTower]

Looks like the two line displays are using rs232 - that's the serial port on your PC.  How you write to it depends on the OS but since we're talking DOS here I'm pretty sure you can just copy a file to the COM1 device.

[fa001]

Not to get off topic of this control panel thread, but if one is going to run multiple games than some frontend will be required. That frontend program could easily output to the COM port to display the game name.

[ChadTower]

Wait a second we're not thinking straight.  The ZVG works through the com port, doesn't it?  So you have the video card as a secondary display, possibly.

[fa001]

The ZVG works through the parallel printer port not the com port. One might use a com port for a mouse input for a controller but most PCs support 2 if not 4 com ports.

[ChadTower]

Ah yes, that's right... but it would still leave you the video card, yes?

[Matthew Fisher]

Ah yes, that's right... but it would still leave you the video card, yes?

Yes, it would.  I guess it all comes down to whether you feel the need to have one and then where you want to put it.  Mine's on top of the cab, because some of my favorite games are not in the frontend and because I find myself tweaking, calibrating, etc., a lot.  I suppose I could put it on a stool or mount it to the wall, too.  You could also put a little display on the control panel or below/above the vector monitor.  If you don't want to play the few games that the frontend does not support and you have all the settings where you like them, no real need for a secondary monitor.     

[ChadTower]

Hrm... and I suppose it's too much to hope for that the ZVG has a functional API... when mine come in I'll take a look and see what I can do with it.  Losing the front end source really hurts here.  Maybe I'll get lucky and the instruction set is similar to the Vectrex.  That one I am familiar with.

[RetroACTIVE]

You all have me thinking now... I've pre-ordered a ZVG and I've looked at the source code for the ZVG, it seems pretty simple...

I'd like to get a 8-10" LCD w/touch screen and use it as a front end to drive vector mame...  essentially embed  it into the cab so it looks right...

Haven't thought the whole thing through but I think that way would give the most flexibility...

[Matthew Fisher]

You all have me thinking now... I've pre-ordered a ZVG and I've looked at the source code for the ZVG, it seems pretty simple...

I'd like to get a 8-10" LCD w/touch screen and use it as a front end to drive vector mame...  essentially embed  it into the cab so it looks right...

Haven't thought the whole thing through but I think that way would give the most flexibility...

So, you would just bypass the vector-based frontend altogether and just use a regular DOS frontend?  That would solve the problem of the missing games and having to use the command line...  I think that a lot of cabs (i.e., where the main monitor is not vertical) would have plenty of space in the back for a small monitor. 

I'll have to admit that I'm not a huge fan of the branching system of the vm-menu frontend; a one-touch launch from a list would be very nice! 

[fa001]

The VectorMenu gave me the games I wanted but I could not make a selection with an analog stick, yoke. The menu program wanted a digital joystick. So after this discussion I have decide to buy a LCD readout and try making game selection through it.



After it gets here and I play some I will let you know how it works.

[RetroACTIVE]

You all have me thinking now... I've pre-ordered a ZVG and I've looked at the source code for the ZVG, it seems pretty simple...

I'd like to get a 8-10" LCD w/touch screen and use it as a front end to drive vector mame...  essentially embed  it into the cab so it looks right...

Haven't thought the whole thing through but I think that way would give the most flexibility...

So, you would just bypass the vector-based frontend altogether and just use a regular DOS frontend?  That would solve the problem of the missing games and having to use the command line...  I think that a lot of cabs (i.e., where the main monitor is not vertical) would have plenty of space in the back for a small monitor. 

I'll have to admit that I'm not a huge fan of the branching system of the vm-menu frontend; a one-touch launch from a list would be very nice! 

Yep... it would be wicked easy to code up something that is clean and simple... you could even put artwork and instructions on the display... may be a bit to mame-ish for some but I think it would look good if done right.  I was looking for small CRTs with touch panels to keep the CRT-ish ness of it but you can get a flat panel w/integrated touch panel pretty cheap...

So, no vector front end at all... its always playing a game... the last game that is selected on the navigation panel... If you wanted to go stupid nuts you could also use the COM port to control monitor rotation... but given the fact there are so few vertical games I don't think that effort would be worth it.

[Matthew Fisher]

So, no vector front end at all... its always playing a game... the last game that is selected on the navigation panel... If you wanted to go stupid nuts you could also use the COM port to control monitor rotation... but given the fact there are so few vertical games I don't think that effort would be worth it.

Very nice!  Anything to make it a little more user-friendly.  I always have to relearn which buttons to use in the frontend if I have been away from the thing for a couple of days.  I agree with the powered rotation.  I was going to do it manually, possibly with some kind of pulley system accessible through the coin door.  All in all, though, I don't mind the small image too much on the few vertical games. 

[kayoteq]

last run of ZVGs

?? Sorry haven't been here awhile. are they stopping production?
seriously. I'll start scraping the funds together this week if that's the case.

[chrisdfw]

On the Zektor web page they say the ZVG is discontinued.

That's a shame.  I know he probably didn't make any money off of such a niche device, but it is sad to see that type of capability gone forever. 

[ChadTower]

There is one more run coming of the current version coming, by preorder, might be closed now.  And they say they are about a year out from a new version of the ZVG. 

[chrisdfw]

I hope that is true!  I did hear about a USB version possibly being worked on, but that it was up in the air because of the commiments to his products that make the business money.

Does anyone know if there is any way to get a new vector monitor?

The supply of old vectrex monitors and arcade vector monitors will run out someday. 

[ChadTower]

Does anyone know if there is any way to get a new vector monitor?

This question is asked a billion times in a billion places, but no, no new vector monitors, not in the last 25 years.

[Ummon]

One wonders if there isn't, like many things arcade, a stash(es) of NIB vecs lying round somewhere.

[chrisdfw]

There's also the issue of overlays...

Ah, overlays.  I'm still toying with the idea of decasing an LCD monitor to use for this purpose, but I still wonder if the blank sections of overlays like on Warrior (I know, it's not really an overlay) would be clear or black on a decased LCD monitor.  Does anybody know?  I suppose it would be possible to edit them to be translucent if they were, in fact, opaque...   

I tried taking apart a couple different LCD panels.  If you hold it in front of anything things on the LCD panel that are white will be transparent.

The problem with putting one on top of a vector monitor is the curve of the glass screen.  Only the center of the tube screen gets very close to the center of the LCD.   As the vectors away from the center get to be 1/2 an inch or more away from the LCD they get blurry and have a bad screen door effect.  This is true with both regular LCD panels and the ones meant for sitting on overhead projectors.  I was really hoping that at least the overhead projector ones wouldn't blur the vectors that weren't right in the center.

Has anyone else played with taking apart LCDs and had a better result?  Maybe I just tried with 2 that don't work well.

[ChadTower]

Yours is the first I've even heard of someone actually trying it.  Good info.

I'll get back to this concept once the ZVGs come in.  I also have to locate a power supply for the one spare color vector I have (sega).  I might end up putting together a test cab with Dave's Major Havoc CP/controller.

[ChadTower]

Don't want to jump Dave's gun on this... but since it's up in public view...

Click and scroll down a bit... anyone interested in VectorMAME will want to at least peek.

[Ummon]

Well ---fudgesicle--- me. I may have to buy one.

[ChadTower]

I'll get back to this concept once the ZVGs come in.  I also have to locate a power supply for the one spare color vector I have (sega).  I might end up putting together a test cab with Dave's Major Havoc CP/controller.

ZVGs are in...  need to find a transformer for a Sega monitor, and then once Dave's cp/controller ship, it's all set to go...

[chrisdfw]

Sounds cool, keep us posted!

 

[ChadTower]

Spent much quality time with Major Havoc in two Funspot trips this week... too bad the sound is off on that cab but it's definitely a great game.  This project might be a go.

[Cakemeister]

I don't see Ripoff on your game list. It has two players, four buttons per player, left, right, forward, fire.

You could use joysticks for the left right without affecting gameplay too much.

[chrisdfw]

Any updates from ChadTower or anyone else on their ZVG arcade projects or ideas?

It looks like only those with a ZVG will ever be able to do this.  I doubt they will do anymore runs of it or work on the USB version, though I really wish they would!

[shilmover]

Bringing this to the top...

Anyone get further in this?  How are you connecting the spinner/trackball?

[ChadTower]

Time to come back to this... lots of products becoming available for multivectors.  Need to see what might fit my needs and this analysis isn't done yet.