seems like the newer consoles are not all that in quality built.

[daywane]

I do not have one.
PS2 and Game qube are my newest systems

I read the posts hear and for what the systems cost I am shocked at disk read errors!
Like the PS2 disk drives. CRAPY
I think for the price the drives should be standard and as simple to swap out as a PC drive.

I do not think I have seen much complaints on the quality of the Wii
I find it odd though when I go into walmart, I allways look for the Wii.
I have yet to see one there

[danny_galaga]

being able to swap a drive would certainly be great. but probably not from the manufacturers point of view. Incidentally, having just bought a Wii, i had it freeze up once on me. Only the once, but i find that a worry...

[SavannahLion]

The problems just seem exaggerated due to the growing pervasiveness of the Tubes and the rapid dissemination of information.  

It's true that some consoles suffer more than others. But most, if not all, consoles suffered some kind of problem or another.

I think the reason why you don't see many Wii's in stock (I see... or I don't see Wii's in most stores either) is because they are cheap compared to the 360 and PS3. 360 is getting better with their price drop on their low end 360 but Ps3 doesn't hold a candle to Nintendo on the price. IMHO, Wii is a different class altogether. At worst, Nintendo will just about squeak by until the nextgen console. The real battle is between Sony and Microsoft.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me on that, but the populace speaks for itself.

[DJ_Izumi]

Optical drives are the common weak point of any computer system, including game consoles.  I've had DVD-ROM, DVD+CDRW drives die, I've had drives die in Xboxes.  It happens.  Lots of moving parts plus an optical sensor that has to be really precise.  Some have had worse problems, I think the PS1's early drives were worse than normal.

The only REAL flaw I've heard of is the 360.  Later models are FAR better lasting but it's believed that ultimately up to 33% of the first hardware version of the 360 has died in some fasion or another.  Microsoft designed the GPU, Microsoft doesn't design GPUs or ANY kind of chip, they sorta boned it up and have been working on it since and getting ATi to make a more heat optomized design of the chip.  Most other consoles I've heard of have only had industry standard failure rates of like 3%.  They're all manufactured products and ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happens sometimes.

Often however, parts are replacable, even if by a fee by the OEM.  I'm pretty sure I could walk into most Sony Stores and say 'I need to ship my PS3 off for a new drive, it's not under warrenty, what'll it cost me?' and they'll find the answer.  The original Xbox DOES use a near standard 5.25" bay optical drive and can be easily interchanged with other units.  However since the optical drive is the most frequent failure they're not the most common spare part to be found.

In reguards to firmware, agian, ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happens.  This is new this generation, with consoles writing their 'once write, don't screw it up while doing it' operating system to the system and should it bork the end user has no means to force boot it to reinstall.  I mean, if your PS3 or Xbox 360 loses power while doing an update it probably won't boot up agian afterwards.  Though the OEMs typically have a means to boot them into a service mode where they ignore their own damaged firmware and look to external media for an OS to boot and reinstall.  (This is the basis of most PSP mods even. XD)  There are a LOT of machines out there and it's difficult to predict what will happen to every single one when upgraded.

Imagine what problems we'd see if people updated their BIOS firmware on their PCs 2-6 times a year instead of... Maybe once or twice in the system's life time?

[Blanka]

I do not think I have seen much complaints on the quality of the Wii

But I do hear tons of complaints on the quality of Wii games!

[Ginsu Victim]

It's not like poor manufacturing is anything new. Look at the NES. They mass-produced the hell out of those, and without repairs, most of them are close to useless now.

[ChadTower]

It's not like poor manufacturing is anything new. Look at the NES. They mass-produced the hell out of those, and without repairs, most of them are close to useless now.

Sure, after thousands of hours of use by children.  Put any consumer electronic in the hands of kids for 2000 hours and see if it still works.

[DJ_Izumi]

It's not like poor manufacturing is anything new. Look at the NES. They mass-produced the hell out of those, and without repairs, most of them are close to useless now.

That was really more of a design flaw in the front loader design of the NES rather than manufacturing.  This is why nearly every other console, including NES2, just had you put the cart in from the top.  It's mechanically simpler and thusly harder to break.

[Mauzy]

With the NES, the vast majority of the problems the surviving machines have are due to weak 72 pin connectors. 25 years of cartridges in and out would wear out ANY connector.

[Ginsu Victim]

It's not like poor manufacturing is anything new. Look at the NES. They mass-produced the hell out of those, and without repairs, most of them are close to useless now.

Sure, after thousands of hours of use by children.  Put any consumer electronic in the hands of kids for 2000 hours and see if it still works.

Agreed. So what about the 2600? Those went through plenty of abuse and I've never seen problems with them.

[ChadTower]

Agreed. So what about the 2600? Those went through plenty of abuse and I've never seen problems with them.

First consider 72 pins vs 24 pins - roughly 3x the potential for individual pin failure.

Second consider that Nintendo overengineered the ZIF socket.  A little more force would have gone a long way in keeping those alive.  Think about how hard you have to pull a 2600 game to get it out vs an NES game.

Third consider that a LOT of those NES are not failing only because of bad connectors.  They also have failed lockout chips.  Bad connectors do not cause the NES blinks - which we all know is a major part of the problem - that is a lockout chip problem where the security chip on the motherboard cannot communicate with the lockout chip on a licensed NES cart.  Disable that lockout chip and your blinks go away such that now your only problem is the garbled grey screens and freezes that come from the bad connector.

[Ginsu Victim]

The whole reason I brought up NES was for you to tell people what you already told me

[dreamakuma]

I remember back when the early PS2's were having issues with discs. So early hardware failure does happen. BUT this rrod thing is still going on. Now this  kinda ticks me off because i bought an elite, took it home, got exited,turned it on, D-O-A . I just took it back and got my money back. I don't like updates, don't like constant failures, don't do online gaming, and I don't do waggle controls. am I the only one feeling like the average guy who just wants to sit down and play something for a hour a day, maybe two, has been forgotten? So What happened to a good solid game system that you just buy the box, buy a game or two, another controller, have fun? What the  happened to FUN? As for the NES I got three frontloaders, One of which has seen four generations of kids and looks war torn and missing it's top casing, still works.

[massive88]

DOA is just bad luck, I would have returned it for another one, and tested it in the store.

For every RROD horror story there are plenty of people who have had no problems, myself included.  Knowing its potential for overheating and all, I made sure its well ventilated. 

The Xbox360 with XBLA is far and away the best console I have ever owned, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

XBLA is exactly what you are asking for, and its only better with all the user generated games out there now.

[Mauzy]

The Xbox360 with XBLA is far and away the best console I have ever owned, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

XBLA is exactly what you are asking for, and its only better with all the user generated games out there now.

I've had two completely fail and its still my favorite console because of the ease of use (for me at least) of the Live and Arcade services. Other than the two RRODs, I've never had any other problem with a 360. I have had three different PS2s (2 had bad lasers, 1 had bad controller ports) and three different Dreamcasts (all have various disc read issues). I haven't had any disc read problems with the 360 or original Xbox. Obviously a completely malfunctioning system (RROD) is worse than a disc drive failure though, but the 360 is by far not the only system plagued with problem areas as previously stated throughout the thread.

[ChadTower]

Dreamcasts?  Seriously?  I've probably had 20 of them and they all worked perfectly.  Hell I found one on the side of the road in the rain and it worked nicely when I dried it out.

[Mauzy]

Yeah, I had two that refused to play, among a few other factory games, ANY Sonic Adventure disc. I gave one away, but the one I kept plays a burnt copy of the game (I own a factory disc!) perfectly fine.

[Dartful Dodger]

I didn't buy a PS3 until the price dropped.

I wasn't willing to pay what Sony thought it’s product was worth.

I haven't had any problems with my PS3, but as far as less quality in newer consoles, newer consoles have more competition.

Older consoles had little or no competition so if you wanted one you paid what they wanted you to pay.

Now brands are even competing against themselves when it comes to consoles.

If you can't afford a PS3 and you're willing to accept lower quality graphics you can get an XBox, if you're willing to sacrifice graphics you can get a Wii, but if you're willing to go that low in graphics, you can get a PS2 for 1/3 of the price.

For Xbox and PS3 to compete against the Wii and PS2 they need to cut corners.  the problem is when Sony figures out a way to cut corners on the PS3 they can use that to cut corners on the PS2, so now PS3 and Xbox need to cut even more corners...

... Long story short, you get what you pay for.

[daywane]

The Xbox360 with XBLA is far and away the best console I have ever owned, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

what is a XBLA?

[foleykoontz]

what is a XBLA?

Xbox Live Arcade. It's pretty nice and I'm actually thinking of building my next cabinet around it and Street Fighter 4 as it has some real classic arcade games plus these homages to old ones like Castle Crashers and Alien Hominid. Those games are begging to be played on arcade sticks.

[massive88]

what is a XBLA?

Xbox Live Arcade. It's pretty nice and I'm actually thinking of building my next cabinet around it and Street Fighter 4 as it has some real classic arcade games plus these homages to old ones like Castle Crashers and Alien Hominid. Those games are begging to be played on arcade sticks.

And every game has a free demo that lets you try it out.  You can easily kill several evenings a month just trying out the new demos, and if you find a keeper, more the better.

[Ginsu Victim]

Dreamcasts?  Seriously?  I've probably had 20 of them and they all worked perfectly.  Hell I found one on the side of the road in the rain and it worked nicely when I dried it out.

I have three. They all work perfect.

[Mauzy]

Dreamcasts?  Seriously?  I've probably had 20 of them and they all worked perfectly.  Hell I found one on the side of the road in the rain and it worked nicely when I dried it out.

I have three. They all work perfect.

Well hell. Was there a bad lot of Sonic Adventure discs or something? I tried 3 and none would work. I even had them cleaned at the local Gamecrazy. Maybe I just have bad luck with Dreamcasts.

[bartre]

Dreamcasts?  Seriously?  I've probably had 20 of them and they all worked perfectly.  Hell I found one on the side of the road in the rain and it worked nicely when I dried it out.

I have three. They all work perfect.

Well hell. Was there a bad lot of Sonic Adventure discs or something? I tried 3 and none would work. I even had them cleaned at the local Gamecrazy. Maybe I just have bad luck with Dreamcasts.

yeah, same here, had 2 copies, neither worked, so i dl'ed a copy and it worked fine.
to this day, i've never had any other problems with my DC.

[Ginsu Victim]

My Sonic Adventure (original GD-ROM) works perfect.

[Minwah]

Well hell. Was there a bad lot of Sonic Adventure discs or something? I tried 3 and none would work.

That is a blessing in disguise

[Ginsu Victim]

Well hell. Was there a bad lot of Sonic Adventure discs or something? I tried 3 and none would work.

That is a blessing in disguise

Come on, now, it's a good game.

[northerngames]

If you can't afford a PS3 and you're willing to accept lower quality graphics you can get an XBox, if you're willing to sacrifice graphics you can get a Wii, but if you're willing to go that low in graphics, you can get a PS2 for 1/3 of the price.

who told you the PS3 graphics were better then the 360 

the only thing the ps3's hold over the 360'a is the blue ray player and why they cost so much but that is a disk format with a larger size but not a gpu by any means 


Let's look at the maximum theoretical numbers for the Xbox 360 and PS3 GPUs.

Triangle Setup
Xbox 360 - 500 Million Triangles/sec
PS3 - 250 Million Triangles/sec

Vertex Shader Processing
Xbox 360 - 6.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 2.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 16 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 1.5 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 12 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 1.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 8 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
PS3 - 1.0 Billion Vertices/sec

Filtered Texture Fetch
Xbox 360 - 8.0 Billion Texels/sec
PS3 - 12.0 Billion Texels/sec

Vertex Texture Fetch
Xbox 360 - 8.0 Billion Texels/sec
PS3 - 4.0 Billion Texels/sec

Pixel Shader Processing with 16 Filtered Texels Per Cycle (Pixel ALU x Clock)
Xbox 360 - 24.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 20.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 40 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 18.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 36 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 32 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
PS3 - 16.0 Billion Pixels/sec

Pixel Shader Processing without Textures (Pixel ALU x Clock)
Xbox 360 - 24.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 20.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 40 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 18.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 36 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 32 of the 48 Unified Pipelines)
PS3 - 24.0 Billion Pixels/sec

Multisampled Fill Rate
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz)
PS3 - 8.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz)

Pixel Fill Rate with 4x Multisampled Anti-Aliasing
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz / 4)
PS3 - 2.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz / 4)

Pixel Fill Rate without Anti-Aliasing
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)
PS3 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)

Frame Buffer Bandwidth
Xbox 360 - 256.0 GB/sec (dedicated for frame buffer rendering)
PS3 - 20.8 GB/sec (shared with other graphics data: textures and vertices)
PS3 - 10.8 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for textures and vertices)
PS3 - 8.4 GB/sec (with 12.4 GB/sec subtracted for textures and vertices)

Texture/Vertex Memory Bandwidth
Xbox 360 - 22.4 GB/sec (shared with CPU)
Xbox 360 - 14.4 GB/sec (with 8.0 GB/sec subtracted for CPU)
Xbox 360 - 12.4 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for CPU)
PS3 - 20.8 GB/sec (shared with frame buffer)
PS3 - 10.8 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for frame buffer)
PS3 - 8.4 GB/sec (with 12.4 GB/sec subtracted for frame buffer)

Shader Model
Xbox 360 - Shader Model 3.0+ / Unified Shader Architecture
PS3 - Shader Model 3.0 / Discrete Shader Architecture

Don't forget to add VRAM.

X360: 480MB maximum
PS3: 224MB dedicated

Xbox 360 has the advantage in most cases.

[bartre]

^^
where'd you get that info?
i'm not trying to argue that you're lying, it's just that i want to know where you can get that kind of stuff.

[danny_galaga]

simpler than all those figures, there was a review somewhere (might have been posted here) that compared the same games on xbox360 and ps3. most of the screenshots, you  couldnt say which was which...

[ChadTower]

Physical specs don't mean a damn thing if the software isn't maxing them out.  All that matter is what specs are being used in any given game.  I don't care if the thing can do projected holograms if there are no games that use it.

[HaRuMaN]

^^ this is true

Although, as a console ages, it seems like the developers get better at squeezing better performance out.

[ChadTower]

^^ this is true

Although, as a console ages, it seems like the developers get better at squeezing better performance out.

Yeah, right about the same time the next consoles hit the market and people start arguing theoretical capabilities of those machines instead of playing the best games on the prior consoles.  The best example of that might be the Saturn.  That thing had serious horsepower, but also was not friendly to develop on, so it took third parties a few years to max it out.  By the time House of the Dead, Burning Rangers, and Panzer Dragoon Saga came out everyone was debating the N64 instead.

[northerngames]

 Thats what I was going to say give it another year becuase there is not anything to fill the 360's maximum potential on the market just yet game/graphics wise.

E3 2009 is coming though and may show some difference in the two but the 360 is still stronger now and later bottom line..