BYD autos

[danny_galaga]

Plug-in-hybrids are not magically green. The hippies need to stop deluding themselves. Where the hell do they think that energy is coming from when they plug that thing in? Being 'green' really just boils down to people not wanting to be a direct 'end user' of pollution. It is still happening, but now it falls on those big, bad, mean, evil corporations that they can wave torches and pitchforks at. Oh, but that's okay - those mean corporate baddies can pass the buck too by buying carbon credits.
What an f'ing joke all around.

Sigh. Weve gone over that bit before. You can get electricy from where ever (solar, hydro, coal, nuclear, natural gas), and at a much greater economy of scale than millions of individual petrol engines. Even if suddenly all cars somehow were powered by coal power stations, there would be less pollution in the air compared to the same number of cars with petrol engines.

More importantly, i like the idea of the plug in hybrid because its a real bridge between the past and the future. If suddenly you couldn't get petrol for your car, the cars we have right now are suddenly useless. But if you have a plug-in hybrid, you'll still be able to travel say 60 miles a day. Which means if suddenly overnight, if your pals in the middle east decide to jack up the price of crude, you can say 'meh, i just won't buy any petrol, i can still get to work'. So not only will you be using less fuel, it'll keep OPEC a little more honest, and we won't be hostage to their foibles any more.

One of the important components of the hybrid is the battery. BYD have been making the batteries in your laptops and phones for years. No one seems to mind buying them, whether or not they are belching out pollution...

I agree with you in general about the carbon credits thing. That seems to me to be chicanery on a scale vaster than Enrons sleights of hand...

[shmokes]

Even if it was an exact wash on the pollution the electric car still has a lot going for it.  Why do you want to ---Cleveland steamer--- where you sleep, so to speak?  If I live in the city I would very much like to displace my pollution to an area less populated.  And who doesn't want to end our dependence on the Middle East for energy production?

[RayB]

One of the important components of the hybrid is the battery. BYD have been making the batteries in your laptops and phones for years. No one seems to mind buying them, whether or not they are belching out pollution...

Those same ones that get recalled due to explosion risks? ;-)

[TOK]

One of the important components of the hybrid is the battery. BYD have been making the batteries in your laptops and phones for years. No one seems to mind buying them, whether or not they are belching out pollution...

They aren't marketed with the "Saving The Planet" BS that hybrid cars are.
Just when hybrid cars get mainstream, 60 minutes will do an expose on nickel mining, and all the chicken littles will be swarming to the next make believe feel good technology.

[danny_galaga]

One of the important components of the hybrid is the battery. BYD have been making the batteries in your laptops and phones for years. No one seems to mind buying them, whether or not they are belching out pollution...

They aren't marketed with the "Saving The Planet" BS that hybrid cars are.
Just when hybrid cars get mainstream, 60 minutes will do an expose on nickel mining, and all the chicken littles will be swarming to the next make believe feel good technology.

That's fine. Once the options are there, YOU can buy a petrol-only vehicle, and i'll buy a plug-in hybrid. Then I can 'feel good' driving it, while you can 'feel good' with it sitting in the garage when there's some problem with oil supply.

Lots of things use nickel already. What do they use in coins? Why do you think a 5 cent piece is called that?

[TOK]

Fuel has never been unavailable, I'm not sure where you're pulling that scenario from. Mad Max? If it gets that bad, I won't have a job anyway since I doubt China will be making a plug in 3/4 ton work van.

Nickels are 75% copper and 25% nickel. They were never 100% nickel. Just like a hybrid, dig deeper for info or you'll be misinformed.

[Vanguard]

Looks like you'll be able to buy Chinese vehicles in the U.S. in September:

GM unloads Hummer to Chinese buyer


http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/02/news/companies/gm_hummer/?postversion=2009060216

[RayB]

Fuel has never been unavailable, I'm not sure where you're pulling that scenario from. Mad Max? If it gets that bad, I won't have a job anyway since I doubt China will be making a plug in 3/4 ton work van.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

[danny_galaga]

Fuel has never been unavailable, I'm not sure where you're pulling that scenario from. Mad Max? If it gets that bad, I won't have a job anyway since I doubt China will be making a plug in 3/4 ton work van.

Nickels are 75% copper and 25% nickel. They were never 100% nickel. Just like a hybrid, dig deeper for info or you'll be misinformed.

so, there is NICKEL in coins, just like i said...

And, RayB beat me to it on the other point.

[danny_galaga]

Looks like you'll be able to buy Chinese vehicles in the U.S. in September:

GM unloads Hummer to Chinese buyer


http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/02/news/companies/gm_hummer/?postversion=2009060216

crap. i was hoping those ridiculous 'cars' would just disappear...

[TOK]

And, RayB beat me to it on the other point.

I was a kid at this time... There were lines, but cars didn't sit in the garage like the scenario you presented.
There were plug in electric cars at this time. Nobody bought them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PwMJFxsZM[/youtube]

Edit to add... I grew up about 1/2 mile away from a pretty historic fuel riot.
http://www.dan-smith.net/levittown/riot.html

[HaRuMaN]

Edit to add... I grew up about 1/2 mile away from a pretty historic fuel riot.
http://www.dan-smith.net/levittown/riot.html

My wife grew up not far from there... Morrisville, PA

[boykster]

Fuel has never been unavailable, I'm not sure where you're pulling that scenario from. Mad Max? If it gets that bad, I won't have a job anyway since I doubt China will be making a plug in 3/4 ton work van.

Have you ever taken the time to consider that by transitioning a moderate percentage of passenger vehicles used primarily for commuting to a non-gasoline or diesel based fuel source will EXTEND the timeline that those fuels will be available for consumption by vehicles that NEED it?  You know, for people who require a 3/4 ton work van? 

I'm not a big 'save the planet, ride your bike' kinda guy, but I do see the value is distributing the power usage for transportation away from a 99% fossil fuel use pattern.  Petroleum is a finite resource, and eventually it will be depleted.  Forcing everybody into a D-cell battery powered aluminum can isn't the answer, but neither is claiming that all alternative power sources are a waste of time and that we should all drive our gas guzzling Hummer's until the oil fields run dry. 

Sure, even a moderate shift to electric passenger vehicles will push our power grid - hell in many areas it's already pushed beyond the point of reliability.  Yep, batteries cause their own issues with pollution, but innovation in a renewable resource seems much more logical than ignoring the fact that at some point in the future, the gasoline powered car will be a museum piece.

 

[RayB]

LOL, that vid above says "not bad for 200 miles per gallon". They measured electricity in gallons back then?

[boykster]

LOL, that vid above says "not bad for 200 miles per gallon". They measured electricity in gallons back then?

Usually its an "energy equivalent" comparison.....

http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html

These tables can be manipulated to make your data look good or bad depending on your opinion of the problem

 

[TOK]

Fuel has never been unavailable, I'm not sure where you're pulling that scenario from. Mad Max? If it gets that bad, I won't have a job anyway since I doubt China will be making a plug in 3/4 ton work van.

Have you ever taken the time to consider that by transitioning a moderate percentage of passenger vehicles used primarily for commuting to a non-gasoline or diesel based fuel source will EXTEND the timeline that those fuels will be available for consumption by vehicles that NEED it?  You know, for people who require a 3/4 ton work van? 

I'm not a big 'save the planet, ride your bike' kinda guy, but I do see the value is distributing the power usage for transportation away from a 99% fossil fuel use pattern.  Petroleum is a finite resource, and eventually it will be depleted.  Forcing everybody into a D-cell battery powered aluminum can isn't the answer, but neither is claiming that all alternative power sources are a waste of time and that we should all drive our gas guzzling Hummer's until the oil fields run dry. 

Sure, even a moderate shift to electric passenger vehicles will push our power grid - hell in many areas it's already pushed beyond the point of reliability.  Yep, batteries cause their own issues with pollution, but innovation in a renewable resource seems much more logical than ignoring the fact that at some point in the future, the gasoline powered car will be a museum piece.

 

My comments in the thread really started with my utter disgust for Chinese vehicles.

The hybrid thing is kind of a secondary argument, but combining an unproven technology (I'll get to that in a minute) with the Chinese inability to make anything worth keeping is just asking to get screwed.

Here are my thoughts on why hybrids are kind of a joke...

We are just getting to the end of the useful life of first generation hybrid batteries. As they age, they become less efficient, and their replacement cost basically totals the vehicle.

The disposal/recycling of Nickel Metal Hydride and Lithium Ion is the second step (after mining and manufacturing) where hybrids can undo any good they've done.

The more mainstream hybrids get, the less "hybrid" they become. Pick up the newest Car & Driver and read their findings on the all new Prius. It is reported to be able to go a mile or more on battery power alone. Regardless of what Car & Driver did, they were unable to get it go to more than 100 feet without the gas engine kicking in.

As far as plug in electrics go, they may be of some use to people with short commutes who plan well. You still have the decreasing battery efficiency to contend with, the recycling to contend with as well as the additional issue that its your sole source of power. Do you want someone creeping along a single lane 35mph highway at 20mph to make sure they get to where they want to go? What about states like California (hybrid/electric central) that already have rolling brownouts under the stress of their normal residential grid?
Talk about a car being stranded in a garage...

A traditional 4 cylinder gas car like the Honda Civic is able to match a hybrid in efficiency in mixed real world driving. A hybrids real advantage is in the city where it can run on electric. That kind of leads back to the direction the cars are going and the Prius not doing well at running on electric at all.

So yes, I'm looking toward the future. Maybe more than people who think an electric cars benefit to the environment begins and ends with plugging it into the wall.

[HaRuMaN]

A traditional 4 cylinder gas car like the Honda Civic is able to match a hybrid in efficiency in mixed real world driving. A hybrids real advantage is in the city where it can run on electric. That kind of leads back to the direction the cars are going and the Prius not doing well at running on electric at all.

I average about 38 mpg in my Honda Fit (traditional 4 cyl) about 50/50 highway/city mix.   

[boykster]

My comments in the thread really started with my utter disgust for Chinese vehicles.

No disagreement there, at all. 

I'm not saying that the plug-in hybrid is the holy grail of the next generation of transportation, but you have to consider all of the innovation that comes from even small scale 'mainstream' adoption of these vehicles. 

All that said, I own 2 vehicles - both have gasoline powered V6 engines and neither are very fuel efficient.

 

[LLUncoolJ]

When I was 16, I won a car in a radio contest. It was a white, stripped down Chevy (later Geo) Sprint Metro. It was the cheapest car on the lot, but a carless 16 year olds can't be choosey. Anyway, that thing got like 56 mpg. I think it was a 3 banger if I remember right. Granted, it was a stripped down tin can, but nothing is really approaching 56 mpg in 2009...this car was a 1987 model. Is there a rational explanation for that?

It was 22 years ago, so maybe my memories are faulty.

[shardian]

The Metro's were indeed 3 cylinder cars. They are almost as easy to work on as a lawnmower engine.

[whammoed]

When I was 16, I won a car in a radio contest. It was a white, stripped down Chevy (later Geo) Sprint Metro. It was the cheapest car on the lot, but a carless 16 year olds can't be choosey. Anyway, that thing got like 56 mpg. I think it was a 3 banger if I remember right. Granted, it was a stripped down tin can, but nothing is really approaching 56 mpg in 2009...this car was a 1987 model. Is there a rational explanation for that?

It was 22 years ago, so maybe my memories are faulty.

Part of the issue is people expect so much horsepower in their vehicles now.  We have traded fuel efficiency for horsepower.  The other problem is most would consider a car that small and light as unsafe now.  I recall being able to deadlift the rear end of those things back in the day.

[TOK]

The HP comment is right on. The Geo was under 60hp, and the Car & Driver test I mentioned earlier actually threw one into the hybrid test.

I don't recall the Prius or new Honda hybrid numbers, and they could fudge them by overstating the combined electric/gas power, but I'm sure they're over 150hp. The batteries are extremely heavy and they are also loaded with more safety equipment, so they need the power. Neither is a very fast car, though they're faster than the Metro.

The Metro tied the Prius (I think, the mag is at work) for mileage in combined highway/city driving.

[Fordman]

Looks like Ford is ahead of the pack!

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/28/ford-fusion-hybrid-hypermiles-goes-1-445-miles-on-a-single-tank/


1,445 miles on a tank of gas! 

Yes, I'm shilling for Ford!

BTW, the cars from china, cheap metal + small size + lots of glass = Dead Driver when crashed!

I'll take my F-150 and spend the extra on the gas knowing that I will walk away from the crash and not be scooped up by the coroner at the scene!

When we get parts that were made in china, they automatically get sorted 2-3 times before we can use them. for every good part we use, we discard 2-3. Quality means nothing to the chinese, but quantity does!

Also check this out! Safety means nothing either!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxT-f-hb8Sg[/youtube]

Fordman

[danny_galaga]

The more mainstream hybrids get, the less "hybrid" they become. Pick up the newest Car & Driver and read their findings on the all new Prius. It is reported to be able to go a mile or more on battery power alone. Regardless of what Car & Driver did, they were unable to get it go to more than 100 feet without the gas engine kicking in.

no disagreement with you there. thats why im so keen on PLUG IN hybrids.

 What about states like California (hybrid/electric central) that already have rolling brownouts under the stress of their normal residential grid?
Talk about a car being stranded in a garage...

remember my comment about ENRON chicanery?

[LLUncoolJ]

One more point on the Metro, I do believe that car came out a year or 2 before the speed limit was raised to 65. I'm not sure it could get there. I had an 88 Samurai in college and it could barely get to 65 without a headwind. It was also made when the speed limit was 55mph. 76 cubic inches of fury, I used to say.