Superauctions Sneakyness

[srarcade]

So my last Superauction experience was not so great. I plopped out 700 bucks and walked away with 2 broken and 1 half working games. Not that I can't (well already have) fix them but the prices were just so high for what I got. I think maybe 400-450 would have been fair.

So heres the sneaky situation, and this may not even be news to many folks but was for me- There was confusion on a game i bought, I thought i was the winning bidder but another number was written down. I had to later find that bidder and discuss what happened. Turned out this guy was bidding on large amounts of games and buying many of them. When I asked about the game he said "if you want it I need to go ask that guy over there, its his games I'm just bidding on them for him". Turns out this guy "over there" worked for an operator and was fixing the games up before bidding. So this bidder was basically buying games back for the operator if they didn't fetch the dollar amounts he wanted. This made sense- i saw games easily worth 200.. going for 400.. all in bidding wars with this dude. Then I come to discuss this with other folks to find out they already knew about this sort of thing going and and proceed to tell me that Superauctions is fully aware of the fact as well but does not do anything about it.

I don't think I will be participating in Superauctions anymore. Apparently its a bunch of good-ol-boys handing lining perks for each other. I mean if they let some of these cabs go for what they were worth, they wouldn't be making half the cash they raked in on utter crap. After you pay tax, auction fee.. you might as well get them off craigslist for a higher base price.

Has anyone else witnessed this sort of thing going on before? I've been to many auctions but I rarely buy anything, but i do price watch.

[Ummon]

Well, this is what I've heard about from others here. Didn't happen at the one I went to, but wouldn'tve happened to me cos I'm firm about how much I wanna spend.

[TOK]

I think shill bids are the norm. Know what you want to pay and don't get caught up in auction fever if you don't want to get burned. Its a buyers market right now.

[Hoopz]

Here's a quote from Paige on SuperAuctions and their tactics:

The Superauctions system is there for a reason, they largely do not allow reserves at all, they just expect the buyer to buy them back if the price isn't high enough. I have never actually had to bid any of my own items there, but I would have, without hesistation and without feeling dishonest. That is the way that selling forum works.

The actually MAJORITY of the buybacks at Superauctions are not machines owned by regular folk, but instead machines owned by Superauctions themselves (who very regularly buy out warehouses, and will tend to purchase the better GOOD items that people enter into the auction if they are going way below market value). They make a TON of money this way because THEY don't have to pay any fees at all. They buy $300ish game for $100 because it is a good deal. They hand seller $74 (after entry fee and commission). They then lug that game around to auctions until someone will go $300 on it, at which point they charge them 13 percent buyers premium on it and they end up making $265 on the game.

If those two things weren't happening then you would find that there wouldn't be a lot of games at the auction at all, and there would hardly ever be anything good. No one wants to risk selling a $500-$1000 unit for $25 at the auction because it broke down, someone sabotaged it, or everyone's truck is full and only one guy has space for it.

And another:

I have seen dozens of Mame cabinets at superauctions, they usually have ALL the games installed. I have never seen one without the games, no one would buy it without the games.

I severely doubt this has anything to do with Ultracade, as Superauctions isn't related to Ultracade, new machines are almost never sold at auctions, other than new cherry masters. I have been going to auctions for years and I have never seen an Ultracade at auction.

Also I have been dealing with Superauctions for years, and frankly they have a bad reputation for a reason, they are probably the most unethical outfit I have ever had repeated dealings with. It has nothing to do with the law. If they cared about the law then they wouldn't sell illegal gambling devices (that THEY OWN) in states where they are illegal.

Pay careful attention to the last paragraph of the following:

The best advice is to ALWAYS assume the worst. If you always assume the worst then you will have a great experience.

Always assume the auctioneer is lying about ANYTHING he says about the game. Condition, price they sold for last week, what might be wrong with the game. Only exception is that if they go out of their way to tell you something bad, then you can believe that.


Assume that the first bids on an item aren't real and wait until you see actual bidding going on. Some auctioneers love to start an item at $100 and then spot $200 and $300 "bids" and then when no actual people bid they go back down to $100 again and wait for an actual bidder. Superauctions has 3 auctioneers that I know. Rob (mid 30s, brown hair) doesn't do that much, the older guy does it for almost every game, and then there is the younger muscular guy with the dark hair, who is the most straightforward of the auctioneers, but he usually only auctions things when the main auctioneer needs a break.

Assume that the working games have intermittent problems that aren't showing up that day.
Assume that the dead games have a dead power supply, dead monitor, and dead boardset.
If a game has graphics errors or boots up to garbage you should always assume it is the boardset and not the power supply.
Assume the seller of the game is bidding against you.

And the most important one. If you win a bid on a game and then all of a sudden there is some "confusion" about a bid they didn't catch or something, then just walk away. Do not raise your winning bid. Every time this happens it is because one of the auction employees (who owns the games) or insiders signalled the auctioneer that the price wasn't high enough for their liking. When that happens you are not in a fair bidding situation, you are instead letting someone who doesn't have to pay buyback or entry fees set the price that they want you to pay.

And some more:

As for the shill bidding, that is the way reserves work in arcade auctions, you simply bid your own machine until it reaches a price you are comfortable with. Most of the machines don't have this happen, but the machines owned by auction employees (and auction employees ALWAYS own about 10 or 20 percent of the machines) simply aren't going for anything less than top dollar. At superauctions it is often buyer number 222 who is the employee buyer.

I have never personally bid on my own machines, but several of them I have come close on. There would be a lot less equipment if they didn't allow buy backs, as many people aren't going to risk bringing a choice piece of equipment only to have it stolen for almost nothing.

Game sabotage happens, but it is not as common as you would think, it actually tends to happen before the auction (the day before when people are dropping off games), it is more of a hazard for sellers than it is for buyers. But it often just backfires as the seller will show up the next day and either fix the game or buy it game.

Also, you can't walk into an auction expecting to get any particular item, because you will probably end up disappointed. You have got to just go in there and go with the flow. There usually are not enough Mortal Kombat or Konami 4 player cabinets to go around. All the mamers want them.

If you are looking for a Mame project then take careful note of the control panels of the machines, because a machine with a metal panel and controls you don't like is going to be a nightmare to redo. Converted Defenders are usually the easiest Mame conversion, they have a monitor shelf and the control panel is a flat piece of wood. In general if you are looking to mame then look for a pre-existing streetfighter layout or a control panel that is a flat piece of wood.

Also, the preview period is a good time to match up cabinets. Like it is a good time to sniff out the cabinets that play blind and the ones that boot up to garbage. A quick monitor swap between the blind game and the garbage game gets you a fully playable game, and another cabinet suitable for something.

I usually fill up my truck, but I bought nothing at the last auction. There were only a couple items I really wanted, one was a dedicated 2 slot neo with a one slot board (Football), it was really minty, but it sold before they got to my mame cabinet and I simply couldn't bid on any high dollar items like that until I knew how much I had to work with. The other was a Midway caberet with converted to trivia in really nice condition that booted to garbage. I bid $50, someone else got it at $75. I simply didn't want to be in $120 (with fees) for a Mini cabinet that I was still going to have to sink another $50-$75 into (I would have made it into vertical Jamma).

There's more out there, but I think this confirms your ideas.  And no, I am not stalking Paige....     Before he stopped posting regularly, he was the top poster on the website;  Chad was just behind him.  He is/was a great resource and I remembered he had some opinions about their auctions.

Sorry about your experience.   

[srarcade]

Wow hoopz, thats unbelievable!  Thanks for all the info posted, very interesting. Totally what was going on that day. I really think its a shame they operate that way, that they are largely controlling the auction to their advantage over many buyers who don't even know what games are worth to begin with. What a shady business!  I am definitely not going to support them by taking part in their auctions any more. Im sure there will be a very small share of deals but I'm sticking to buying from individuals from now on.

[YoGaBaR]

I have been to alot of auctions. Especially collector car auctions. And this type of bidding goes on all the time. If a car doesnt go for what the person wants it would be feasable for them or a buddy to buy it back for the sellers and buyers premiums than to loose their butts on it. I agree its total BS but you definatly have to go into an auction with a set price you want to spend. Never goto an auction with the mentality that you hate to loose cuz you will always loose then.

[CheffoJeffo]

Never goto an auction with the mentality that you hate to loose cuz you will always loose then.

+1

If there is ever "confusion", there isn't any confusion -- walk away.

[Hoopz]

+1

If there is ever "confusion", there isn't any confusion -- walk away.

That applies to strippers, poker and shell fish also.   

[ChadTower]

I don't even really see the problem... if you bid $400, clearly you think the item was worth $400, right?  All you have to do is stop bidding at your max and you cannot possibly be ripped off.  No one forces anyone to bid on anything.  Yes, this is common, and yes I hear people complain about it all the time, and it never fails to perplex me.  If someone bids something up too high just stop bidding.  It's not the only cab that will ever come along.

[Mauzy]

I don't even really see the problem... if you bid $400, clearly you think the item was worth $400, right?  All you have to do is stop bidding at your max and you cannot possibly be ripped off.  No one forces anyone to bid on anything.  Yes, this is common, and yes I hear people complain about it all the time, and it never fails to perplex me.  If someone bids something up too high just stop bidding.  It's not the only cab that will ever come along.

Exactly. If anything else, bidding higher than it is worth just sends the ones practicing the unfair bidding that what they are doing will get them more money (because it does, obviously). Why should they stop if doing so gets suckers to spend and extra $200 on a machine legally? Sure it may not be right and know most of us on this forum wouldn't condone it, but it happens. With any auction situation this will come up. Whether it be live or eBay, shill bidding will occur. Just gotta deal with it.

[srarcade]

I totally understand where you guys are coming from, believe me. I did have ceiling amounts for all the games I bid on, in fact someone even called me out in the auction because a game would get to my limit so fast I would hard cut off and throw the "cut" sign or nod "no" and some jerk even yelled out some rude comment about how I had no balls to go higher and change my diapers or something- whatever, I wasn't going to over pay for some of the utter junk there. Turned out he was one of the hidden bidders anyway.

So what am I complaining about then?

Well, I already compiled a list of the past 5 or 6 auctions and what games went for and any notes on condition. So I did my homework and had a good idea what to shoot at and I put a cap on every game I had my eye on down on paper. But then everything was averaging at the highest prices on that list I made versus what was paid in the past. So in essence, my prices I got were not an utter rip off, but I literally won all 3 on their ceilings I set and did not go over my limits on any item. In the past, an "average" auction I would have paid 450 for my 700 dollars worth of games I got, so I was disappointed that it was not a "killer deal" auction, especially with this economy, I had high expectations that the prices would be better. I had a spending limit that day, I had already rented a truck, I wanted to make it worth while.

I had NO idea about all the buyback stuff, and that all this was the norm- I am a noob, I learned a lesson. Its just shocking to first find out all this, I really was naive enough to believe auctions were a WYSIWYG type thing but now I know theres so much more that goes on behind buyers backs.

[CheffoJeffo]

Everybody that I know has at least one story where they didn't get a "fair" deal ...

My first auction purchase was a mostly-working MVS-2-25 and I paid about three times what I would pay today now that I am better informed. It is still one of the most played cabs in my collection and I have gotten good value for that money.

I have a couple of other examples where I derived lesser value (most notably one of those plastic Die Hard cabs ... I'm still not sure what the hell I was thinking).

[ChadTower]

... some jerk even yelled out some rude comment about how I had no balls to go higher and change my diapers or something- whatever, I wasn't going to over pay for some of the utter junk there. Turned out he was one of the hidden bidders anyway.

Now THAT I haven't seen.  I wouldn't tolerate that for more than about two comments.  That goes past a "reserve bidder" and goes into just being --missioncontrols--. 

[Kevin Mullins]

That's when I start to make sure I'm standing right next to that same guy during the rest of the auction.
 

[VespaGuy]

Assume that the first bids on an item aren't real and wait until you see actual bidding going on. Some auctioneers love to start an item at $100 and then spot $200 and $300 "bids" and then when no actual people bid they go back down to $100 again and wait for an actual bidder.

I attended the Superauction last month in Worcester and noticed this technique several times. It was very obvioius what they were doing.

A few other things I noticed:

The opening bids of many games were way over the actual value. (they tried to start a Family Guy pinball at $5,000) The auctioneer would test the water, and if nobody bit, they'd keep dropping the opening bid until they got a bite. Or drop to a low opening bid and use the technique above to make it appear that there was activity.

For most items, they would let the bidding continue  far longer than it needed to, hoping to encourage one last bid.  The "going once, going twice" would go on for 30 seconds or so. However, if the bidding started slowly and there wasn't much action and the item appeared to be selling for a really low number, the auctioneer would pretend to end the auction - he'd skip the 'going once, twice' and just put his pen to his paper and say "okay, that's it" and repeat the last bid. At this point, all of the folks who were waiting to place a bid would immediately raise their card to put in a final bid. Now there are multiple bidders at one time, and the auctioneer would quickly hit all the bids driving up the price.
Example: the bids are in $50 increments but gets to $250 and stalls. Rather than "going once, going twice" the auctioneer appears to just end the auction prematurely at $250. Three people quickly raise their paddles. The auctioneer hits every one of them as if they are separate bids: $300, $350, $400. Boom. SO now, the guy who wanted to make one last bid for $300, actually got suckered into making a bid for $400.

The auction company were either purposely decieptful or were careless. Since they deal exclusively in arcade games, I assumed they would know everything about what they were auctioning off. At one point, they were auctioning a SF2 cab. The problem was that the cabinet was SF2, but the game inside was Strider. They auctioned it off without incident, until someone was nice enough to let them know it wasn't a SF2 game. They ended up running the bidding again for the corrected item. Should that have even happened?

I noticed these things pretty quickly, as well as a few other things that seemed a bit "off" to me. The key is to go knowing what you are willing to spend, and to check out each machine before you make a bid.

[ChadTower]

The key is to go knowing what you are willing to spend, and to check out each machine before you make a bid.

Isn't that pretty much the key to buying anything anywhere?

[VespaGuy]

The key is to go knowing what you are willing to spend, and to check out each machine before you make a bid.

Isn't that pretty much the key to buying anything anywhere?

In a nutshell, sure. But it's much easier to apply that logic when you are purchasing a new item from a retail store with a fixed price as opposed to an auction setting. At a retail outlet, you have a certain level of expectations that should be met - a salesman with a certain degree of knowldege, a working product, a return policy, etc. None of these apply at Superauction.

Besides, Superauction's job is to make as much money as possible on each item. They do that by creating an exciting atmosphere (which they seem to be pretty good at), and through some tactics that appear to border on sneaky. Definately tactics that I have not encountered at other auctions I've been to.

Another tactic that I saw them employ a few times went like this: Bidder #1 bids $300. Bidder #2 bids $350. The auctioneer (and his two assistants) then look back at Bidder #1 for another bid for $400. Bidder #1 shakes it off. They then proceed to spend the next 30 seconds or so badgering him/her. My favorite line was, "c'mon!! it's only $50 more! You're going to lose this over $50?!". Hmmmmm. Not quite. Since Bidder #1's last bid was $300, it's actually $100 more than Bidder #1 was willing to bid. Am I nitpicking? Sure. But there was a lot of this "carnival barker" stuff going on.

[ChadTower]

In a nutshell, sure. But it's much easier to apply that logic when you are purchasing a new item from a retail store with a fixed price as opposed to an auction setting. At a retail outlet, you have a certain level of expectations that should be met - a salesman with a certain degree of knowldege, a working product, a return policy, etc. None of these apply at Superauction.

Sure, but the common control point in both situations is your hand on your wallet.  They can't take anything from you without your cooperation.  I'm not digging on you personally but I've heard way too many people lately complaining about how they got "taken" at an auction in which they had hours to inspect the merchandise and then voluntarily bid on open auction.  Used commercial equipment auctions are not a retail store for the general public.

[VespaGuy]

Sure, but the common control point in both situations is your hand on your wallet.  They can't take anything from you without your cooperation.

Of course not. But they can misrepresent what they are selling, or use shady techniques like claiming that a similar cabinet sold for much more a week prior.

I'm not digging on you personally but I've heard way too many people lately complaining about how they got "taken" at an auction in which they had hours to inspect the merchandise and then voluntarily bid on open auction. 

Not only can they inspect the equipment, but they can google the auction company and search forums like this one to find out what may be in store for them. Threads like this serve a purpose beyond complaining about being taken. Cynics may not care, but others may be looking for information prior to attending a SuperAuction event.

[RayB]

This thread makes me LOL.
Well, mostly Vespa's complaints make me LOL.

It's an auctioneer's job to sell merchandise for as high as possible.
If the bidder's job to get merchandise for as low as possible.

If you don't know the true value of an item, then don't bid.

[ChadTower]

Threads like this serve a purpose beyond complaining about being taken. Cynics may not care, but others may be looking for information prior to attending a SuperAuction event.

Sure they do but private conversations don't and I've had a whole lot of those with the same content.  With people who know better.

[VespaGuy]

This thread makes me LOL.
Well, mostly Vespa's complaints make me LOL.

If you think I'm complaining, then you've misread my posts. I was merely stating observations about SuperAuctions and their practices. They use tactics that are sneaky at best, and outright lies at worst. A "misunderstanding" that causes your winning bid to be higher than it was is three-card-monty nonsense, not the work of a reputable business. Complaint? hardly. I didn't bid on single item.  Merely pointing out the way they operate for anyone else who may attend one of their auctions.

It's an auctioneer's job to sell merchandise for as high as possible.

I agree. As a matter of fact, that's almost an exact quote of what I stated in a previous post in this thread. Some auction houses do this honestly. Others rely on trickery. I was merely pointing out some of the games SuperAuctions played. Use that information however you want.

If the bidder's job to get merchandise for as low as possible. If you don't know the true value of an item, then don't bid.

Perhaps you missed some of the earlier posts discussing SuperAuctions practices involving misunderstandings or counting simultaneous bids as multiple bid increases.

[srarcade]

I can attest to the points VespaGuy brings up, especially the "Hey its only $10 more" bit, they used that on me several times. And hes right, its not just $10 or $50 but x2 to the next guy... anyway - I'm going to stop here with that.

I am sorry if this thread is perceived as a whining, I don't mean to just go on here to complain. I really started it with just the intent on sharing some of the experiences which I perceived as sneaky, I had to see what the story was and I have been since enlightened by all the good comments written above.

Thanks 

[ChadTower]

OTOH, the last auction I went to (which was not a SuperAuction) they couldnt' give away some working games.  Bids opening at $25 for working generic conversions that no one wanted.  Stuff like working Cracky Crabs for $50 a pop... that auction in Dec was a total bloodbath for sellers.  Very little shilling aside from on a couple of pins and it was the first auction I've been to where "demonstrably working" was an actual requirement.

[FrizzleFried]

If you're a cheap bastard and want to hold on to your money,  just wait until the very end of the auction.  By that time most peoples wallets are flattened and you can pick up some good deals.

[ChadTower]

That works if you don't care what you get.  I know guys who do that for beaten up JAMMA conversions to part out.

[CheffoJeffo]

I am sorry if this thread is perceived as a whining, I don't mean to just go on here to complain. I really started it with just the intent on sharing some of the experiences which I perceived as sneaky, I had to see what the story was and I have been since enlightened by all the good comments written above.

It's all good -- RayB might just be laughing because the local auction here is often worse than even the horror stories I hear about SuperAuctions -- shill bidding is completely illegal here and yet is done rather blatantly and "our" auctioneer is truly one-of-a-kind, but what are our choices ?

I've pretty much stopped buying at auction, but use it as a staging ground for deals made in advance or on the spot with other collectors who are attending.

[RayB]

It's all good -- RayB might just be laughing because the local auction here is often worse than even the horror stories I hear about SuperAuctions -- shill bidding is completely illegal here and yet is done rather blatantly and "our" auctioneer is truly one-of-a-kind, but what are our choices ?

I've pretty much stopped buying at auction, but use it as a staging ground for deals made in advance or on the spot with other collectors who are attending.

It's quite amusing how we've turned their parking lot (well, the neighboring company's parking lot) into our own little swap meet. 

[mrclean]

I went to a super auctions for the first time in MA this year and left rather quickly because they mainly had crappy redemption. I didn't stick around long enough for the experience based on what I saw I wasn't interested in anything. That being said hopefully the next auction which should be in NJ is going to be held by US Amusements and should hopefully have more "classics" As for prices ive been looking at previous years 2006,2007,2008 they don't seem so terrible. No official date but i heard sometime in April.

[ChadTower]

SuperAuctions only holds auctions in MA about every 7 years so you won't have a problem there anyway.

[mrclean]

Now quick someone bug rob and find out when the next auction in NJ is going to be through US Amusements! rritterhoff@yahoo.com , he said sometime in April.. hope it happens I noticed that the NJ Superauction was canceled... http://www.superauctions.com/pages/calendar.htm

http://www.usamusement.com/

[LLUncoolJ]

OTOH, the last auction I went to (which was not a SuperAuction) they couldnt' give away some working games.  Bids opening at $25 for working generic conversions that no one wanted.  Stuff like working Cracky Crabs for $50 a pop... that auction in Dec was a total bloodbath for sellers.  Very little shilling aside from on a couple of pins and it was the first auction I've been to where "demonstrably working" was an actual requirement.

Where is that auction (speaking of cheap ---daisies---!)? 

[solid12345]

Hah my company had actually briefly talked to Super Auctions about carrying their auctions live through a video feed but that fell through. Glad to know if they have a negative rep.

[Haunton]

I got some info on an arcade auction going down in Southern Cali next month.... http://www.cdc3pl.com/id72.html