Light gun compatibility

[Diewrecked]

Hi all,

Quick yes/no question please: Can I use a light gun in a cab with a Hantarex MTC9000 behind a sheet of smoked glass?

TIA
Jon

[lanman31337]

Topgun, yes.

[Diewrecked]

Thanks Lanman.

How noticable is the sensor bar though, and where would I mount it. Presumably underneath the marquee with the tape at the top? Or at the top of the cab?

Thanks again for your help.

[jeffremiller]

I bought two Topguns...  I never managed to even get one to work correctly.

If anyone wants one, never used in the box and a used spare... PM  me with an offer.

I have given up on them.

[Diewrecked]

I bought two Topguns...  I never managed to even get one to work correctly.

I have given up on them.

Thanks for your comments Jeff.

Guys does anyone else have any comments on the TopGun? Are they generally this unreliable? I have heard that the Mk 2 is more reliable/stable? And that it works better with Smog's drivers? Can anyone pass comment here please?

Also are there any alternatives that would work on a Hantarex MTC9000 arcade monitor behind smoked glass please?

TIA
Jon

[wbassett]

The TopGun is hit and miss.  Some people have no problems and love them, other have majo problems and hate them.  There are very few that are in the middle.

If you're lucky and get them working, the first version works 'okay'.  I hear some say the TopGun II fixed all the problems with the first version, but others have still had some problems.

With that said, when they work they work okay to good.  I personally think they have some accuracy and distance issues, but compared to other guns they are less expensive.

I'm waiting for some feedback on the wireless RF TopGuns.  Those if reliable have some real potential for making custom guns.

[aljupy]

I'm waiting for some feedback on the wireless RF TopGuns.  Those if reliable have some real potential for making custom guns.

Hello:

 I had two sets of "RF Topgun" I´m going to resume here my personal thinks
This time I´ll not do any detailed review on forums, sorry friends

Pros:
-Better design
-Touch of the Buttons are improved (Big and Soft buttons, and C button on the bottom is cool)
- D-pad is also better

Cons:
-Gunsight is a little "strange"
-Loss of "Extra fetures" (Laser pointer, debug mode, XBOX mode..etc..etc..)

-I need slighty more distance (Maybe half meter) with "Rf topgun" than my old Topgun
-Playstation2 is still buggy on some games (For example on "Crisis Zone" Pal version)
- "A" and "B" Buttons are too far away for some fingers. So..Dino Stalker (Dino crisis: Gun survivor from Playstation2) will be imposible to play for someone)
-Tracking is slighty better on my old Topgun1.
I measured "Rf Topgun" with an application program:

Old "LCD TOP GUN" updates around 60 times in a second

"Rf Topgun" just updates around 40/45 times in a second.

I think, this is the main reason why I found the "strange bad tracking" of the cursor. 45 updates in a second is pretty bad for a gamer.
I like to save hostages in lightgun games

The lag annoys me, I´m lucky I bought it in a local store. I can approve some points, but not lag.



I think that in a Versus...... my Old "topgun-1" wins. I asked inmedeatly  for a refund on the local shop.

Best Regards.

[Loafmeister]

I bought two Topguns...  I never managed to even get one to work correctly.

If anyone wants one, never used in the box and a used spare... PM  me with an offer.

I have given up on them.

PM sent jeffremiller

[PsychoAU]

PM sent jeffremiller

[wbassett]

I'm waiting for some feedback on the wireless RF TopGuns.  Those if reliable have some real potential for making custom guns.

Hello:

 I had two sets of "RF Topgun" I´m going to resume here my personal thinks
This time I´ll not do any detailed review on forums, sorry friends

Pros:
-Better design
-Touch of the Buttons are improved (Big and Soft buttons, and C button on the bottom is cool)
- D-pad is also better

Cons:
-Gunsight is a little "strange"
-Loss of "Extra fetures" (Laser pointer, debug mode, XBOX mode..etc..etc..)

-I need slighty more distance (Maybe half meter) with "Rf topgun" than my old Topgun
-Playstation2 is still buggy on some games (For example on "Crisis Zone" Pal version)
- "A" and "B" Buttons are too far away for some fingers. So..Dino Stalker (Dino crisis: Gun survivor from Playstation2) will be imposible to play for someone)
-Tracking is slighty better on my old Topgun1.
I measured "Rf Topgun" with an application program:

Old "LCD TOP GUN" updates around 60 times in a second

"Rf Topgun" just updates around 40/45 times in a second.

I think, this is the main reason why I found the "strange bad tracking" of the cursor. 45 updates in a second is pretty bad for a gamer.
I like to save hostages in lightgun games

The lag annoys me, I´m lucky I bought it in a local store. I can approve some points, but not lag.



I think that in a Versus...... my Old "topgun-1" wins. I asked inmedeatly  for a refund on the local shop.

Best Regards.

That's a bit depressing.  I was hoping they'd get this right.

The gun itself is an XBox gun that they modded.  So that's why the same features aren't there that the TopGun has.  Which that gun was a mod of a PS2 gun which already had the laser, recoil and other features.  So it makes sense that this new gun doesn't have those features because they don't really make their own guns, rather modify others.

Accuracy is a big concern of mine.  Blob shooting is okay in some games, but others do require precise tracking.  It's those games that I found issues with my TopGun experience. 

Hopefully they will be quicker at getting a software update out there that improves the accuracy and distance than they did with the first TopGun.  I really really want to like their products and if they can get the wireless tech working I have plans for some pretty cool mods.  If they can't, well then I will be going with Dave's Sonic design.  I wish his was wireless, but I can live with that if the performance is top notch.

Let me ask this...  Is there any type of advanced calibration with the RF TopGuns that may help?  I know the TopGun II improved on that some, and although I only have a first gen TopGun myself, I found that putting the sensor bars above and below the screen instead of to the right and left of the screen improved not only my accuracy but also the distance I need to stand back.  Have you tried that?

The update time though seems like it will cause lag, and that's also one of my complaints about the original Topgun...  the cursor lag.  It really matters in games like Police Trainer when you get to the upper levels.  The beginning levels are fine with the lag, but when things start to get really fast and you need precise aiming, that's when it start's to fall apart... at least in my personal experience.

Again, for games where you are just 'blob shooting' the baddies and hitting any part of their body registers either a kill or hit, there are no problems.  It's only when you need to shoot like Mel Gibson in Leathal Weapon is when it matters.  Me?  I'm ex-military so I like and want precision.  I understand this isn't the same as going to the range and firing live rounds, but why shouldn't it be?  EMS is a leader in the light gun community, and even though they do recycle and remod other company's guns- being the leader they really should put out a top notched finished product in my opinion. 

I am still waiting for something that I can do my custom gun mods with!  Hopefully EMS will give you some sort of solution to the problems you noted, and hopefully it won't take two years this time!

If not, I won't be waiting two years, I'll be going with Dave's solution.

[mrserv0n]

Just want to put a good word for the LCD topgun, ive owned it for over a year and a half and with smogs driver it works perfect, I mean accurate to the size of a pencil eraser at worst. The gun is perfect. for the poster who bought 2 and gave on up them, pls PM me if you need help. Its not complicated, and I don't think you should go around giving it a bad name. It wouldnt be the most popular light gun on the forum if it wasnt an a+ product.
Yes EMS drivers suck, they suck bad. But smog drivers make the gun unbeatable imo

[Loafmeister]

Dang it mrserv0n you might have cost me a good purchase! LOL.  I'm still interested if you at least want to sell one if not both jeffremiller.

[mrserv0n]

Dang it mrserv0n you might have cost me a good purchase! LOL.  I'm still interested if you at least want to sell one if not both jeffremiller.

LOL, well you will thank me later.

Its this simple. Plug the gun in, it will pop up and windows wont know what the hell it is and ask to search for the driver, you choose to manually select driver, point it to smogs driver, it will recognize it immediately. Now just calibrate it as shown on the ems topgun website. Hold the 2 side buttons to activate calibration Shoot points A-E on the Screen, it will then exit calibration and you will see it move your mouse cursor, Now your in business. Start mame , hit tab, select X axis move your gun left to right, select y axis move it up and down, it will call it mouse 2 or mouse 3 , basically all it is is a mouse. change button 1 to your trigger. button 2 to your reload, your done. Play the games with arcade accuracy... it takes 5 minutes.

[Loafmeister]

Troublemaker

jeffremiller: Have you checked the wiki?  I've heard other reviews that have said they had trouble with them too but it may be you're too close/far or your setup just isn't condusive to them. Whatever the case, if you give up, you have my PM info but it's always worth a try. (but really, you should at least sell ONE of them LOL).

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/LCDTopGun

[mrserv0n]

sorry accidently double posted

[aljupy]

Hi Wbasset:

I´m on same boat than you. I mean that I like that a lightgun has Perfect accuracy, as you say.
In my case, the Accuracy is PERFECT, I show it on my youtube videos.

About the Lag: I know that it bothers, but ALL THE LIGHTGUNS until this date, have something like 15-20 ms of lag.
Wiimote pointer has same lag than Topgun and same lag than a Guncon 1,2,3, and the same lag than the lightguns found in arcades. I have test it by myself, not just a theory.

Doesn´t matter if the lightgun is InfraRed or if it is the typical "old Flashing white lightgun"
As you say, in police trainer "experienced levels", the targets go like crazy and it is pretty hard to shoot it.
I´m not a programmer but I notice that the cursor tracks FASTER under windows that under MAME.
My trick is that I try to imagine that I have a pistol which shoot at around 350 meters for second, not an assault rifle wich shoots at supersonic bullets.


The problem is that  when LCD TOP GUN it goes Wireless (Rf Topgun) It seems you can add a 8 ms more of lag.
So: 15/20ms that all lightguns have + 5/8 more because Wireless + mame tracks slighty slow than windows = Not recommende For gamers
I would recommend it for "parents and kids" because design is cool and buttons are "Soft and easy"

Now I´m going to read and reply detailed what you said.

The gun itself is an XBox gun that they modded.  So that's why the same features aren't there that the TopGun has.  Which that gun was a mod of a PS2 gun which already had the laser, recoil and other features.  So it makes sense that this new gun doesn't have those features because they don't really make their own guns, rather modify others.

"LCD TOP GUN" was a Beretta modified (with laser pointer), after EMS released it, it seems other chinese manufacturer copied it only for Playstation 2. But the first model was for EMS

"RF TOPGUN" doesn´t exist on Xbox (neither PS2) It exists a model wich is very similar and was compatible with 100HZ Tv. I know wich one are you imagining.
There is not any lightgun for Xbox has big buttons on sides (called A & B)  "A button" was the Trigger on Xbox

Accuracy is a big concern of mine.  Blob shooting is okay in some games, but others do require precise tracking.  It's those games that I found issues with my TopGun experience. 

I must admit that lag annoys me, but Accuracy on topgun is perfect, Here are my youtube videos of Topgun, you can see accuracy. http://www.youtube.com/user/aljupi

Hopefully they will be quicker at getting a software update out there that improves the accuracy and distance than they did with the first TopGun.  I really really want to like their products and if they can get the wireless tech working I have plans for some pretty cool mods.

But How? The lag is there, 45 updates for second is poor for me.
It is tech issue, it doubt that a driver could fix aa normal tech lag. (Lightguns have lag and wireless devices always has slightgy more lag than a corded device)

If they can't, well then I will be going with Dave's Sonic design.  I wish his was wireless, but I can live with that if the performance is top notch.

It is the first time I hear a "Sonic Gun". Maybe performance could be FASTER than Infrared, I imagine that a "Lightgun´s cam" can not read IR at the speed of a bullet

Let me ask this...  Is there any type of advanced calibration with the RF TopGuns that may help?  I know the TopGun II improved on that some,

No, it uses THE SAME, than the TOPGUN2

and although I only have a first gen TopGun myself, I found that putting the sensor bars above and below the screen instead of to the right and left of the screen improved not only my accuracy but also the distance I need to stand back.  Have you tried that?

Yes, I tried, but even that way, a Topgun1 can play half meter closer.
The distance is not a problem for me I like to play a natural distance from screen. Not a 1,5 meters for a 40 "Inch ".

The update time though seems like it will cause lag

No, the update time, makes the cursor "Shaky" (only while tracking)

I am still waiting for something that I can do my custom gun mods with!  Hopefully EMS will give you some sort of solution to the problems you noted, and hopefully it won't take two years this time!

If not, I won't be waiting two years, I'll be going with Dave's solution.

Well, I do not know how are the lightguns you have bought, but LCD top gun1 with a good driver, are the best, I have the other lightguns released in the past for PC and LCD TOP GUN1 is a jewel for me.

Anyway I hope competition with Sonic Gun system, I like Lightguns are going for better not for worse.

Regards "RFTOPGUN": I like that EMS tried to do it Wireless, it was a nice try from his side. I wish them good luck


Best Regards

[wbassett]

Good reply Aljupy.

My comment about EMS re-modding other guns... while I suppose that EMS could have come up with the designs first, It doesn't appear that way. 

I've been looking for light gun options for about a year now.  My main criteria is for it to be as responsive and accurate as the only thing I have to compare it with- that being the Time Crisis 4 Guncon3.  With that said, for the past year I have constantly been searching the web two or three times  week.  I check eBay, Google, and Ask Jeeves.  I've actually seen the wireless XBox gun long before EMS released their RF Topgun.  That's where the comment comes from.  As far as the Topgun and Topgun II... I found the exact same gun made by another company.  Now in fairness, I didn't find that one before getting my first Topgun, but seeing that it's a PS2 gun and the PS3 has been out for a couple of years, I just assumed it was an older manufactured gun.  So I could be wrong on the Beretta being a mod... but I kinda still believe it was.

The XBox gun is only similar in tech because it is wireless.  It still is a CRT only gun, so EMS and the XBox version are very different in the tech being used.

The only gun similar in tech is the Guncon 3, and it is very accurate.  Unfortunately, it only works with the PS3 so I can't see how it works with MAME.  It could dog down to the same performance level as the Topguns.

Lag-  In the center of the screen I will agree the Topgun is pretty accurate.  It's out at the edges (at least with mine) is where the tracking really starts to lag and accuracy starts to take a hit.  I just recently played Police Trainer on a real Police Trainer arcade machine and I was able to burn through the levels and get through the game where as with my generation 1 Topgun performed fine at the lower levels but in the upper levels when speed and accuracy matters, that's when I started having problems.  I think the Topgun 2 may be a bit better, but unfortunately I don't have one.

Again I'll say I think part of the problem may be the cross hairs.  Seeing them let's you also see and be aware of the lag.  It could be a subconscious thing is what I am getting at.  Maybe it is as accurate as the arcade version, but mentally seeing and waiting for the cursor to catch up to where you are aiming could be adding to the impression of the lag and accuracy being lower.  I will mention again though that the Guncon 3 also has a visible cross hair cursor on the screen and it just feels much more accurate, but I absolutely hate the way the gun feels in your hand.

Back to your review of the RF Topgun... correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are not recommending them right now, is that right?


To me accuracy and lag go hand in hand.  The Topgun 1 is very accurate if you have time to draw clean and steady bead on your target and by then the lag 'catches up' and you can pop off a shot with great results.  Snapping off rapid fire shots and moving from target to target quickly is where I am not satisfied.  I will say for games shooting zombies or other baddies, I am happy with it, just not for fast shoot type games that require precise and quick aiming anywhere on the screen.  Not being a killjoy there, that's just my experiences with it.  I will also say that it also seems to differ from gun to gun... some sound like their guns work better than others.  (Could this possibly be a QA issue with the lens and internal gun sensor placement?  If it's off slightly maybe that could be affecting tracking with the sensor bars?)

EMS has a unique product, but in some ways it is disappointing.  I think they have the potential of being the ultimate PC gun solution but they really do need to work out some of the kinks.  Which brings me to my other comment.  EMS has horrible documentation and their original drivers were so bad that they actually recommended SMOG's drivers on their website.  I can accept that if this was a gun co developed on a site like this, but no I can't accept that type of response from a commercial company.  Add to that it took them two years to come up with functional drivers of their own (which I bet were based on SMOG's... I hope he got some reimbursement if that's the case) and then shortly after their new drivers, they refined the gun and came out with the Topgun II.  So my complaints and comments are based on this being a commercial company that had to depend on a private nonprofit community to work out the bugs on their first gun, and then the amount of time it took them to fix the issues with something they had in production and were selling for profit.  If they were one of us on here I would be applauding them, but as a commercial company, I do feel they fell short.

I think they could be the best out there if they get on the stick, and I think competition will bring that out.  Right now there really isn't any real competition, so to me it seems like they aren't worried about it... they'll fix things when they fix things and in the mean time they'll gladly take money from sales until they do. 

As far as distance...  I have to stand at least 4 1/2 to 5' back on a 21 inch monitor... not a 40" monitor.  Sitting on my couch playing Time Crisis 4, the Guncon3 works flawlessly.  If my cab had a 55" monitor, yeah I'd even say 5' might be too close, but we're not talking about a 55" or even a 40" display.  So yes... I would like to be able to stand a bit closer.  I don't recall having to stand that far back at the arcade, and that's what I am saying.

Again, some guns seem to work better than others.  I may have just got a bad gun.  I'm inclined to believe that since I had a broken wire issue inside my sensor bars which only added to the frustration of doing the setup, and yes I used SMOG's drivers.  Once I fixed that problem, I was able to get it working but still am not totally happy with the quality and performance.

After using mine for almost a year now, I am starting to experience some trigger issues.  Sometimes it doesn't respond, and I didn't have that problem when I first got it working.  In other words, my gen one Topgun is showing signs of failing.  Maybe they fixed this with the Topgun II and RF Topgun, but I can't say from personal experience, just what I experience with my gun.

If I paid $20-$30 for this I wouldn't complain at all.  But I paid over $70 with shipping and it was tauted as the 'best of the best'.  That' what I base my opinions on.

Buyer beware is the main message.  Some work exceptionally well, others are broke when you get them... and don't expect clear documentations or quick firmware updates.  If that's okay, then it really is the best option out there.  Also if you only play games like Area 51 or other monster blob shooting games... again it's probably perfect for you.  For fast aiming and shooting, I'd say stay away from the first gen Topgun.  I hear the second gen Topguns are better, but haven't had the urge to spend the money to find out when I wasn't happy with the first gen. 

I hope they fix things because right now they are the only real viable option out there for non-CRT based displays.

[mrserv0n]

Lag-  In the center of the screen I will agree the Topgun is pretty accurate.  It's out at the edges (at least with mine) is where the tracking really starts to lag and accuracy starts to take a hit.  I just recently played Police Trainer on a real Police Trainer arcade machine and I was able to burn through the

You could try widening the distance of the topguns LEDs , meaning the corners of the screen would actually be off to the side of the cabinet a bit and the corners of your screen are now not really the corners?

[Diewrecked]

Many thanks for your comments all, especially wbassett and aljupy for your detailed responses 

What would you say is the consensus then, the mk1 or the mk 2? (I don't need wireless). 

Also what's the best way of concealing the sensor bars? My screen is behind smoked glass; would the sensor bars work well if mounted behind the glass? And if not, where is the best place to mount them please?

Thanks again. 

[Diewrecked]

Bump!

Can anyone help with the last couple of questions please? IE, which is the best overall gun between the TopGun 1 and 2 (or any other contenders that are in scope here)? Also what's the best way of mounting the bars behind smoked glass? Would they even work there or would they need to be in front of it?

Many TIA once again you guys
Jon

[jeffremiller]

My experience is that the bars cannot be mounted under glass.

I mounted them to the inner sides of the cabinet on the left & right of the screen with double sided tape.

[Diewrecked]

Cool thanks Jeffremiller

[Shoegazer]

I've owned TopGun I and II guns, and I can say there is ZERO performance difference between the two "generations".  The only advantage to owning the II model is Vista compatibility.  That's it.  Even then, EMS only supports 32-bit Vista, and since most people serious about this stuff are converting to x64, their drivers don't work at all.  EMS has stated they have NO intention of releasing an x64 version, probably because they're planning to milk more money out of people with a TG III.  Otherwise their guns would have been firmware-upgradeable.

Anyway I'd stay away from EMS.  The TG II guns are cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for.  Forget playing Police Trainer or any game like it; performance is so poor I gave up on those games, and I don't even use the guns at all anymore.  There are better solutions around the corner like the Sonic Gun System that use professional arcade guns and will hopefully be far more reliable/useful.  Think about this: we use high-end Happ, Ultimarc and GGG equipment in our cabs, so why should we settle for sub-consumer-grade crap like EMS products?  Unless the Sonic product and it's upcoming competitor offerings are going to be overpriced, I'd consider these as far better alternatives.

Shoegazer