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Author Topic: Stern layoffs  (Read 21290 times)

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Mauzy

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 04:23:18 pm »
Neat. Thanks for the info guys.
"Son, all hobbies suck. But if you keep at it, you might find you managed to kill some precious time."

Xiaou2

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2008, 02:41:10 am »
Quote
Lets see, pin #s declined due to vids (and let's face it, lack of innovation in pins). Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.

 - Vids are hard to compete with.. but, most times pinball lost revenues simply due to
the fact that the pins were broken in some way,  and broken way too often.

 As seen with High Speed... Innovation and good play can create a highly desired
experience that people are willing to pay for.. and can get Hooked on. Sadly, that idea
of innovation has been drying up every since the 90s... and almost ALL innovation has been stripped away from every creative industry.  Its incredibly sad... and such a waste.  Mostly due to the money men... who have NO CLUE what creativity and Fun really mean.  Such people should not have so much power as they are Ruining the world.

Quote
So then arcades decline... so does pin interest... then BAM 92/93 it reignites? Let's see what coincides with this time period? Oh yes, Street Fighter II. The game that brought people BACK to arcades and coin-op entertainment back to mom & pop stores, etc.

 The initial shock of innovation of Video games created an inflated demand on the
experience and production.  The industry should have foreseen that such demand
would eventually level off to 'normal' levels instead of Obsessive levels.

 In fact, many Ops where I live never did poorly.  We had more than 3 huge arcades
which did very well all during the so called industry crash... and did well up into the
early 90s... when it seemed that creativity and innovation was starting to die.

 Street Fighter II was one of those games which had everything that people
wanted.  Its enhanced gameplay over typical fighters really created that magic
innovation that drove people to the Obsessive levels again.  Which is why even
corner stores could buy them and make money.  2player dual also is a good
way to get people hooked... as many single player games just do not have that
same pull.  Its the competition of real human intelligence that adds to the experience
and draw.  Single player games dont quite have that same power / draw.

 However, even new SF games wont make very good money now. They stopped innovation on the series, and people want something more. Its simply the same old hat
with new graphic dressing.  New graphics/sounds  alone just dont cut it.
 
 (Its actually quite embarrassing that Capcom used such a dated engine compared to
the superior engine of say... Tekken III.   It wasnt the 3d that made Tekken 3 good,
it was the gameplay engine innovation.)


Quote
And then it declines again. And through the 90's the pin companies bail out one by one as the market shrank (in step with arcade popularity!). Gottlieb, Bally, Sega, Capcom, then finally Williams. One by one.


 What sad.. is that the decline could had been prevented if companies didnt get
cheap and lazy.  They based their entire model on high traffic areas instead
of typical establishments.  IE: Tourist area will Always made good money because
its high traffic location.  Asian locations have High population densities... so even poor
traffic is good traffic.  Not understanding this caused them to be lazy and cheap.. as
well as innovation dying out as clone wars spun out of control.


 Pinball had too much trouble in the 90s because many pins in the past failed to get
impressive returns... so even of a Pin was good... Ops didnt trust trying to invest in
them.  As well as taking up too much time in maintenance as stated over and
over again.


Quote
My point: Pinball survived and had its ups and downs THANKS to video arcades. People went to play SF2, and put a few quarters in the pins while they were at it, not the other way around.

 Pinball is a niche market.  But there is always room for it.  As well as die hards who
can get hooked on it.  It really depends on how good the machine is.

 Machines that once didnt sell well could be remade today and sell a lot of them.  Part
of this has to do with the change of times.  The internet allows widespread coverage
and reviews to carry over to the needed levels to generate massive level of interest.
Remember that we are talking worldwide sales potential.

 Not only that... but now home owners have made the realization that they can
buy machines... and again, with internet vids/reviews... it can draw a lot of
interest.  Possibly Huge number of sales if the machine was very Hot.


 
Quote
I think Stern using mass market licenses has had a big role in helping keep them alive for as long as they have. A movie or television tie-in is going to fit into a general public setting like a bar much more than some geeky theme like dungeons and dragons.


 Sorry, but your Wrong.  Wheel of Fortune is a show that old ladies watch. Its not
a theme that kids with quarters are going to drop in.  CSI?  Ive seen the show... It
has its moments... but has No bearing on Pinball.  The characters dont
draw me in. The only reason the show in interesting is because its not predictable.

 People dont fantasize about CSI or Wheel of Fortune!  However, they might
think about being an Elf with pinpoint arrow accuracy and magical powers.  A warrior wielding a sword collecting treasures.. battling mystical creatures..etc.

 They might thing about flying an F16 in a dogfight.  Or battling the evils of the
dreaded Black Knight.  Or even to be stuck in the Erie Haunted house.  Or how about
attacking and seizing the Castle?

  CSI?  Only if nothing else is interesting on TV at the time.

 House?  Love the show...  Great characters...  but a possible Pinball theme?
Nope.  Id never play it... especially not Own it!


 No... these Themes only serve to DESTROY Pinball forever.  Putting the Worst
possible spin on the game in all of History.

 
 As for the good themes like Batman, and even Spiderman....  They were carried
out so poorly... that they again damaged Pinballs reputation.   A huge step
backwards from machines made 15 yrs before them.

 If they were done right... they could have sold a Lot more machines, and started
a resurgence of interest.   Instead... they cut every corner possible, and made
the cheapest POS possible... thinking that the name alone would sell the things.

 In fact... its funny cause Stern still thinks that the Ops are buying them.. and that like
in the past... the Ops will buy Popular titles like Batman on name alone!   Nope.  Many
of their buyers are home owners... who use the net to see what the game is all
about.. as well as read up on of the tons of personal reviews. (as well as word of
mouth experience from known good sources)   Even Ops are using the net to
make sure too.  Times have changed.. but Stern has not.


Quote
Hardcore pin fans might not like it, but hey, do you build a business catering to a market of 1,000 hardcore or do you try to cater to the millions of casual players?

 Define casual player?  You really think the casual player is a guy who gets a
woody seeing  World Poker  /  CSI  /  Wheel of Fortune?    Wrong.

 Just cause I like Snickers bars dont mean I get excited to play a Snickers
themed machine!  Same thing for TV Shows.  Fn Idiots!


 Art appeals to all people.  A good themed game will outsell any of those crappy
themes mentioned. 

 Proof?   Put a restored 100% working Medieval Madness next to All of the Themes
Ive mentioned here and watch where the money goes.   And tell me which one
you think people would rather Own? 

 And again... for the Good themes they get... make them crappy to play and
not very innovative... and people wont play them past the 1st quarter.  Just like
Street Fighter wont sell for crap today... with that same 'old hat'  engine.


 
Quote
Even the video game industry right now is facing tough choices. They can spend $10 million on a AAA hardcore game that might not even break even, or spend $400,000 on a more casual mass market type of game that sells to everyone and their grandma.


 Are you NUTS!   The game companies are Losing people because they chose to make
games so crappy/generic.  Its Innovation that sells games by the Truckloads.  Why do you think PC games are just about dead?  Cause they are All making the same exact
game type over and over again.

 SFII was innovative.  Yup, took a lot more time and energy to produce than the
original fighters of the time.  Yet look at the results.  HUGE returns.   And what
about DRAGONS LAIR?!   Dragons Lair was a Huge innovation, and made Ooodles
of money.  Its STILL Making money Today!

 The clones?  Lackluster craptastic sales... as expected.

 What games made a huge impact more recently?  Rhythm games like Guitar Hero.
Innovation.    (However, if they dont innovate that again soon,  its going to die
soon too.  Its already old to the people who first got into it)

Quote
It's over. The best pinball game design won't bring anyone back to playing pins enough to thrive. Maybe a niche collector market could work if costs are kept really low, but there won't be any profit. It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Factory has done and is trying to do.

 There is still money to be made.  However,  profits will never be what they used
to be in the 80s when the arcade experience was the new thing.   They especially
wont get far without innovations as Ive said before...  and certainly are on the way
to self destruction by being cheap and using horrific themes.

 Just like the Video game industry is gone to hell.   Just think,  the population has
risen by a massive percent since the 80s.   Sales of games should be astronomical.
Yet, they arnt cause most gamers are sick of buying absolute Garbage.   The money
men THINK that sales are improving because of population boosts.. yet,  in reality..
they couldnt be doing worse to ruin things.


Quote
Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.

 So lets see,  you say that INNOVATION, good THEME, and QUALITY brought Pinball back from the Dead RIGHT?  (and then contradict yourself later...)

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2008, 10:44:23 pm »
Quote
Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.
So lets see,  you say that INNOVATION, good THEME, and QUALITY brought Pinball back from the Dead RIGHT?  (and then contradict yourself later...)
Well, my point totally flew over your head. VIDEO arcades were hot. VIDEO arcades happened to still have pinballs, but they were pretty much boring. Highspeed was innovative, and it did well thanks to the VIDEO ARCADE audience that was already frequenting arcades and happened to play pinball too. Again in 92/93 SFII brought an audience back into arcades, where they happened to play pinball too. It can't happen again because arcades are pretty much dead. You could design a new pin as great as Medieval Madness and no one will know about it, because the audience has dissipated.  You could advertise the game on TV and people will be "ok, where do I play it?" and there will be nowhere for them to go! Arcades are gone!

If a "Medieval Madness" equivalent would be the saviour of pinball now, why did they sell only 4,016 units (a rather low number compared to the 5 digit sales of other popular titles) ?
NO MORE!!

Xiaou2

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008, 02:05:15 pm »

 My points flew over your head.

 Todays pinball buyers are mostly going to be Home owners.  (or ops who plan
to resell the pin to homeowners after a short run on location)

 But, that does not mean that some bar or restaurant wouldnt pick one up as well.

 Pinball was actually BIGGER when there were no video games.  It can work
on its own... as Pinball has its own special draw to it.   Videos have to be replaced
every 2yrs or people wont play them.  Yet a good pinball will never have to be replaced,
as every game is a new game.  Its always going to be different every time you play it.

 
Quote
Medieval Madness and no one will know about it,

 Wrong again.  People interested in pinball can easily find out what is new by the
Internet.  Pinballnews.com,   newsgroups,  Youtube videos,  collectors word or mouth,
and more.   In fact, today,  its EASIER to let people know about new products than
it ever was when Williams was around.

 Back then, OPs had to guess if a machine was going to be good or not.  There
was 'some' videos passed around to Some ops... but most were buying without
ever seeing a machine... only maybe seeing a picture at most.

Quote
why did they sell only 4,016 units

 One factor was exactly what I stated above, and in my other posts.  That Ops
were buying blind.   And when they had enough problems with a few bad earners,
as well as the constant mechanical problems,  and a decline in traffic...  all added up
to the death in pinball sales.    Also, as said... that pins which may have done
well and were maintained didnt have to be replaced.   And finally... who knows what
poor advertising methods were used.  They may have cut back on cold-calls, flyers,
video tapes sent... and more.

Today, they can record actual game footage of real people enjoying a machine...
pop in on youtube,  and send a link to known vendors and ops.   Links to reviews
can be made as well.   


 I will say, that a lot of the fun on MM is the great funny quotes that come up.  Sadly,
Id bet that many of those were not always heard will in a busy arcade enviornment.
And, Im not merely saying that MM is the best.  Its just one of the top.  There
are others that would re-sell well again too.   Yet, I think at this stage, pinball need
that new innovation to go the real distance.

ChadTower

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 03:24:03 pm »

So maybe they need to tie pinball to redemption now...  :scared :blowup:

Xiaou2

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2008, 08:12:50 pm »

 Pinball has always been an 'older kid' & or adult game.  Its beyond the skill of most young kids.  Make it too easy for them... and the adults will not have any fun.

 Originally,  Pinball was made as Gambling machines.  Later, they faced termination
because of that... so they changed the game.

 The EM machines are a lot slower playing, and may be easier for all ages to
maintain longer play. 

 Modern machines are a lot faster...  And it would seem that many people
dont realize that they are made to be shook around in order to play fair.  This
can turn people off towards pins... cause if they dont realize this, the pin will
seem to be unfair.

 
 As for redemption... There isnt much use in making pins like that.  Again they would have
to be easier,  as well as more childish themed / brightly colored.   The height would have
to be lowered so kids even could see the field to be interested. 

 But more problematic,  would be that redemption is just about vanished with the
vanishing arcades.

 
 However, I did have the idea that a pin could have a Printer onboard,  that a business
such as a pizza place could use.  For example... if customers played the machine and did well while waiting... they may have a chance to win a coupon off their meal... a free meal,
or something else.    Not quite gambling,  because you get play time out of it..
and only win limited service.


 There is always the faint hope that arcades could made a comeback...  but its very
doubtful that will every happen because of the stranglehold of idiocracy and power
of the money men... who have sucked dry all the creativity, and ruined every bit of fun
and art in this modern world.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2008, 12:15:14 am »
There is always the faint hope that arcades could made a comeback...  but its very
doubtful that will every happen because of the stranglehold of idiocracy and power
of the money men... who have sucked dry all the creativity, and ruined every bit of fun
and art in this modern world.
Yeah OK.  :dizzy: People want to game at home now. End of story.

But your optimism is admirable I guess.
NO MORE!!

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2008, 03:46:45 pm »
I think Xiaou meant speed of ball, not length of game.
Old, but not obsolete.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2008, 05:40:35 pm »
Sorry... but I cant help myself...

 CSI   !!!

  :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

What is really worthy of laughs is that the guy who is proclaiming to be oh-so-wise about the current (and future) state of pinball didn't already know that Stern had a license for CSI ... I can't wait until he hears about 24 ....

 ::)



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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 09:41:37 pm »

Quote
What is really worthy of laughs is that the guy who is proclaiming to be oh-so-wise about the current (and future) state of pinball didn't already know that Stern had a license for CSI ... I can't wait until he hears about 24 ....


 I have Many hobbies (and other things I do)  ...Not just this one Bud.

 Its not like Im actively searching out what Stern is up to all the time... cause really,
its been all crap for YEARS...  so why the hell would I even care?!   There was always the hope that they would Wise UP, and make something worthwhile... but its pretty much clear that its Never going to happen with them.


 I decided to have a laugh and see what was coming down the pike... and to be
honest, I was shocked at the stupidity.  A new alltime low!  Its one thing to make a bad game... as getting everything right is no easy task..   However, its quite another, to choose such a Lame excuse for a theme.  Its really inexcusable.   A real slap in the face to the Art of Pinball, and to Pinball fans everywhere worldwide.


 Picking such a theme is either extreme stupidity on Sterns part... or the Only way they
can get  STUPID  bankers to give them any money at all.  Such Idiocy cant last much
longer... or at least... it shouldnt.


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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2008, 07:21:38 am »
Picking such a theme is either extreme stupidity on Sterns part... or the Only way they
can get  STUPID  bankers to give them any money at all.  Such Idiocy cant last much
longer... or at least... it shouldnt.

You know, I can't find anything to argue with in that statement ... which is sad on a number of different levels ...

 ;)
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2008, 07:23:37 pm »
I'm surprised it didn't end when Williams/Bally quit production. Pinball's days have been numbered. It's just a matter of time. Any pinball manufacture needs operators to buy pins. Collectors can't save them. Operators don't want to buy them anymore because they don't make money. Sure, you find the occasional spot that does well. But, those locations are few and far between these days. People like the idea of pinball machines but don't play them on location much anymore. The drunks will scream for them. The bar owner who of course knows everything starts barking at the operator. You take one in to appease the location and it makes $20 in two weeks. You hand the location their share and you are just losing money on it. It's heading nowhere but south after that. There are many pieces out there that can sit in the same space and make more money. Pins just aren't profitable for operators. They get sold into the home market. That makes it worse because who wants to go out and play pinball when the have one of their own. New pinball machines will become a thing of the past. The only question is when.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 12:23:01 am by Karetaker »

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2008, 01:17:31 am »
Screw GM. They should bailout the Pinball industry.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2008, 07:39:31 am »
Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2008, 09:04:21 am »

I played CSI on saturday... game had like 40 plays on it and the upper flipper fried itself.   :banghead:

It does seem like it might be a decent game but sure doesn't look well built.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2008, 11:49:28 am »
I got a laugh over 700 sales of Family Guy!  After 'Rare Hero' has been whoring his involvement in that game for 2 years on a daily basis on RGP.  Must have been a much needed slap in the face for him, though I'm sure it's now a "Cactus Canyon" level collectible in his mind.


I hate the FG license.  I completely ignored that game until it came out as Shrek.  Too bad nobody locally bought one.  I can't afford a new game and even if I could I'd probably buy 5 decent shopped older ones instead.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2008, 11:56:40 am »
I think Gary was dealing with economic realities that the designers/coders/general public weren't privy to.


EXACTLY!

Steve Ritchie only showed up for a few months to design here and there by his own admission in his GRM interview. I guess he has forgot about that glowing pile of butt kiss that was that article back then huh?

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2008, 12:25:46 pm »
Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en
Anyone wanting to know what he's responding to, it's Mark's post on this page: LINK

I must say "Mark" is spot on with his suggestions (but I think its all too late). Redemption showed obvious signs of taking over as far back as 10 years ago. Why was pinball not offered with ticket-dispensers? Why has pinball not been "redesigned" to keep up with the times? Even aesthetically, as Mark pointed out, the cabinet design is very old fashioned. It may be a "classic" look, but that means identifiying with an ever-aging customer base.

Why haven't LCD screens been integrated into pinball machines? Just look at how Pachinko has evolved in Japan (10" or larger HD lcd screens with full motion animations and interactive games mixed in--though admittedly, Pachinko is also on its way down in Japan).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijnAVA5ee8Y[/youtube]


I guess you can re-package the same game only so many times before people really tire of it. (I'm sick of platformers and formulaic hack n slash video games for example, so it's not a problem unique to just pinball).

Ritchie touched on a couple correct points though. Stern seems to be operating his business on a "this is the way it is" philosophy with zero room for R&D. Take Atari in its heyday for example, they would have dozens of games in development at the same time, lots of testing on location and then only the cream of the crop made it into full production. That's necessary, otherwise you end up producing even your mediocre games and that's just bad for everyone. But that takes a lot of cash to burn. In a shrinking market, that's probably just not possible?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:22:09 pm by RayB »
NO MORE!!

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2008, 01:10:04 pm »
Why has pinball not been "redesigned" to keep up with the times?

Why haven't LCD screens been integrated into pinball machines?



Williams had the right idea and just didn't give it enough time to grab market share. 


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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2008, 02:29:18 pm »
Maybe, maybe not.  SWEP1 and RFM were far worse than people generally remember, though.

I really like RFM.  SWEP1 relied to much on the license but Tilt gave some very plausible reasons why that game design fell so flat.  I'll always be convinced that the concept had serious potential that just didn't get a chance because of the corporate rug yank.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2008, 03:43:43 pm »
For as well as SWEP1 and RFM did, don't forget they were outsold by South Park.

Meh... Ops afraid of the new concept.  Tons of potential for new directions that South Park could never have had.  I'm hoping the NuCore guys will open things up a bit so homebrew minigames become possible.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2008, 07:37:14 pm »
Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en

Thanks for posting that! Hearing it from someone on the inside adds a lot of credibility to the Stern bashing. Its kind of funny to me though that I almost found myself star struck reading something written by THE steve ritchie himself (Ive only known who he was for 6 months but the fact Ive played and enjoyed his games blows me away) until I realized he's not freakin eddie van halen... Hes a guy who does a job that happened to reach a relatively modest audience. I still enjoy reading something "from the inside".
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2008, 09:41:13 pm »
Chad, that's one example. Too bad LCDs screens weren't cheap enough back then. They could have avoided the heat problem, weight and bulky "head" profile.

With today's cheap LCDs they could integrate small screens in all sorts of spots, even directly in the playfield and play full color video sequences off a hard drive (traditional or flash). Add to that some really cool lighting with LED sequencing. The more I think about it, the more I realize how stuck in the "traditional" past they've kept it all... hmmm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPo3aE412F8[/youtube]
NO MORE!!

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2008, 09:02:51 am »
Chad, that's one example.


Sure, it is only one, but one example of did is worth a billion could haves.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2008, 12:57:04 pm »
Chad, that's one example. Too bad LCDs screens weren't cheap enough back then. They could have avoided the heat problem, weight and bulky "head" profile.

With today's cheap LCDs they could integrate small screens in all sorts of spots, even directly in the playfield and play full color video sequences off a hard drive (traditional or flash). Add to that some really cool lighting with LED sequencing. The more I think about it, the more I realize how stuck in the "traditional" past they've kept it all... hmmm


It would have been easy. Just put in a LCD where the DMD currently goes, run the machine on an Atom processor or similar, store programming code in flash, design something simple to control the lights, solenoids, and flippers, and you're done. Software updates would be easy, too. With current LED lighting you could even have color-changing flashers, something not currently available.

The LCD alone would have kept things interesting.

Back in 1999 maybe LCDs and multicolor LEDs were too expensive, but that's isn't an excuse now. Stern should have been innovating. They didn't, and now they're dead. Sucks for us pinball fans.
Old, but not obsolete.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2008, 01:04:53 pm »
You won't see ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of NuCore.  Maybe a rule tweak or two, but nothing new.  The Bally-35 and old Stern code has been busted wide open for years and nobody has done ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- with that.

Those older platforms are embedded systems with limited resources.  That's a whole lot different than an emulator running on a PC.  I don't know the CPU for the Pin2k boardsets but so long as there are compilers out there this is a whole lot wider than the old games.  You're probably right to a certain extent that not many people are going to do much with it but NuCore already has functionality that Pin2k does not.  Plus the NuCore guys are talking about an API - that would be half the battle right there for homebrew - enough I'll at least poke through it myself eventually.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2008, 01:44:37 pm »
I agree that there is no excuse for Stern not switching from DMD to LCD.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2008, 02:30:29 pm »
LCDs would have been great, but Gary hired on all the old guard and told them to make Addam's Family #2 and none of them were interested in doing anything new.
I wouldn't blame the designers. A company has to have a budget for experimenting on stuff that might not have a return on that investment. If Stern allocated Zero to that  (either by choice or by economic forces), then those guys won't be able to experiment (unless they do it on their own time and dollars). The same thing happens in the video game industry. All the creative people keep whining about wanting to make new types of games, but upper management wants what's is already proven to sell.
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2008, 08:28:49 am »
There's going to be a lot of finger pointing over the next few months.  I think Gary was dealing with economic realities that the designers/coders/general public weren't privy to.

Steve didn't help matters any with World Poker Tour, either.  Worst game that company ever produced, bar none.

I got a laugh over 700 sales of Family Guy!  After 'Rare Hero' has been whoring his involvement in that game for 2 years on a daily basis on RGP.  Must have been a much needed slap in the face for him, though I'm sure it's now a "Cactus Canyon" level collectible in his mind.


 ---smurf-poo---.   Stern was a Moron who thought he knew better than the experts.
He's totally in Love with himself, and his Ego is the size of his factory.

 Its also clear that he does not care about the people who love and play pinball.
He only cares about dollars and ego.


 As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 


 Most people know that they are only good at some things... and smartly stay
within that realm.   For example... I am a decent artist... but,  I couldnt play
anything worthwhile on a musical instrument... so wouldnt dare to tell
a Top musician how to compose a song!

   Stern thought he could tell the Musicians what to play... and then tell them to take criticisms from every other self appointed expert out on the factory floor.   

 Imagine telling Eddy Van Halan that he has to make an Album for World Poker...
and then,  Imagine the look on his face when you tell him that every employee
is going to come and tell him how to make those tracks better!

 Then, Give Eddy a Shoddy guitar, and poor quality recording equipment, 
an insanely low budget for equipment and studio time... and almost no time to
get the stuff made at all...

 And then when Eddys fans pipe up... and say how crappy things are... 
The boss tells Eddy to shut his piehole and "F" the fans.   They are selling
records to the music shops...  NOT the fans!

 
 You really think Eddy will be Psyched to make a WPT themed record?!  You
think that enthusiasm will be enough to get him to make the best WPT
music ever?!   Get real.   People with true talent arnt going to waste it on
WPT crap!  If they stick around.. its only cause they are working for an easy paycheck..
much like older actors who do TV ads & infomercials.   I dont blame them one
bit.   

 If they were given a good budget, a great choice of theme..  and ability to
produce a machine that was of quality...  and THEN made a flop... THEN I would
blame them.   Until that time... (which will Never come),  the blame is All on
Stern himself.


   

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2008, 08:33:57 am »


 As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 


Do you even realize how many poker based pins have been made? It is a proven winner theme in pinball. It just didn't translate well to the DMD era.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2008, 04:31:34 pm »
Quote
As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 

Uh,   you've got to be kidding,  right?  Do you really know anything about pinball history?
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2008, 04:33:53 pm »
The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...
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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2008, 04:40:40 pm »
The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...


And apparently you have Gary Stern to thank for that if you read Steve Ritchie's rant.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2008, 02:11:37 am »

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2008, 03:22:18 pm »
You mean the manatees.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2008, 07:50:29 pm »
NO MORE!!

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2008, 09:14:07 pm »
The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...


I agree with you that Family Guy is Easy, but Stern has to put some easy games out there or no one will touch them after one play. 

I have never played it but the Stern Indiana Jones looks terrible.  The ark 8-ball multiball sounds cool but there aren't a lot of shots to shoot for in the game.  Seems like it would get old pretty quick.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2008, 11:53:57 pm »
Quote
Stern has to put some easy games out there or no one will touch them

  That simply is not true.

 Something difficult challenges people, and they wish to put money in further
to try to get somewhere with it.

 One big reasons that Arcades Died,  was because they Dumbed down
games to the point of Idiocy level.   Cars couldnt crash...etc.    People play once,
get board as hell... and never play again... as there is No satisfaction gained at all.

 
 The people who give up so easily on a challenge.. are the ones who arnt going
to spend much playing games in the first place.

 
 As a young kid in the 80s arcades... I was surrounded by challenging games.  I got
Crushed by most games in seconds.  Yet, I still enjoyed them.   Over many plays, I got
a little better.  As I got years older... I got even better and lasted much much longer.
Still challenged by the games,  and still enjoying the challenge.

 Once games became easy mindless  'Movies',  I stopped playing... and so did most
others.


 If Stern was aiming at getting children into pinball... they would have to make the
pins shorter and change the way the game plays.  A slower moving game like the
old EM pins.. with either a set gameplay time and or a change in flipper distances.
However.. if they did this.. it would alienate teen and adult players.

 
 Also,  Family Guy is NOT a Kid theme.  Making that game easy - centered on
capturing childrens interest is in very poor taste.

 The only reason I watched that show at all.. was if NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING,
was on TV that night.  And even then... I would often turn it off.  The show isnt very
good. Its like a combination of cynical negativity and kiddie self help. Its pathetic,
and unethical in that it tries to play to younger kids.

 
 Pinball was fine the way it was.  The failure was an issue of Durability.  Too
much maintenance needed: Broken assemblies = non functional gameplay =
no more repeat business. 

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2008, 07:29:08 pm »
Well putting easy games out there is EXACTLY what Stern was aiming for.   He hit the target for sure.

Go read Steve Ritchies rant on the newgroups.

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Re: Stern layoffs
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2008, 01:05:41 pm »
I tend to believe the complaints leveled here... (Too easy, All the features getting shown off too soon, mish mash of sound bites in FG...).

A game in any form is best balanced to be easy to pick up, but challenging to get further in. And you need rewards for players to continue working towards. I know if I feel I've "seen everything" in just a couple plays, well the incentive to keep playing is much lower. ALL that's left is striving for higher score.

NO MORE!!