Stern layoffs

[RayB]

http://www.retroblast.com/20081031716/Latest/The-End-Of-Pinball.php

[RayB]

There's a lot of debate over whether this is a move to "weather the storm" or really represents the end [of pinball]. Only time will tell.

[Mauzy]

History people. Good Bye Pinball. Not that they were doing anything spectacular, but the glimmer of hope for the return of pinball is GONE...

[Xiaou2]

 Pinball will never be completely gone.

 If it does not stay commercial...  it will more than likely re-emerge
in the home markets with build-your-own kits.  Or sales from such builds.
 (not to mention all the machines that already exist and are being enjoyed
by collectors)

 Stern is like the Kmart of Pinball.   They try to sell the cheapest, unreliable
crap... at prices that were on par with good quality merchandise. 

 Williams could have stuck around actually...   If only they hadnt made the mistake
of Pinball2000.   By using up valuable playfeild space... they essentially ruined
the thing that people loved most about pinball... "Good Gamplay".


 The Only thing that could save Stern is a change of thinking.    They would have to
go all out and spend the money needed to make a GREAT machine instead of a
lackluster turd.  (This includes hiring REAL Artist!!!  As well as redesigning mechanical
structures to be more durable and maintenance free)

 All I can say... is that if a pinball company was to re-release a game like
Medieval Madness... It would sell like Hotcakes.   From both collectors,
mom&pop stores, Ops...etc.     We are talking good gameplay, Amazing artwork,
hilarious commentary,  and great theme.    Im sure other Williams remakes would
sell very well too.      As well as any machines made which actually lived up to,
or surpassed  Willaims standards.
 

 As bad as the Economies get... people will always find the money to blow on
expensive things.   They wont however be willing to blow money on Utter Crap.
(Which is what Stern has been proudly producing)

[Xiaou2]

 

 I just popped over to Pinball news and read that Sterns next pin will be  CSI   !!! 

 

 With lame themes like these..  (in addition to all else mentioned) 
Its no wonder why they are tanking.

 

[Cakemeister]

I think new machines will no longer be produced.

The new Big Bang Bar machines cost something like $6500 each to make. These were not the cheap Stern machines.

There's just too much labor involved in designing the playfields, software, and the actual assembly of the machines to make much money off of it.

As far as new MM machines go, the rights to that machine, and the other Williams machines such as Cactus Canyon, were sold to a guy to has proven himself completely incapable of producing new machines.

I don't see Stern sticking around as a manufacturer of parts, either. They probably will end up closing up shop and selling their warehouse full of parts to someone like Pinball Resource or someone similar.

Creating your own playfield, software, and artwork is a daunting undertaking, even if you had templates you could build cabinets from. I don't think that will happen, either.

RIP pinball   

[RayB]

All I can say... is that if a pinball company was to re-release a game like
Medieval Madness... It would sell like Hotcakes.   From both collectors,
mom&pop stores, Ops...etc.     We are talking good gameplay, Amazing artwork,
hilarious commentary,  and great theme.    Im sure other Williams remakes would
sell very well too.      As well as any machines made which actually lived up to,
or surpassed  Willaims standards.

Yeah OK.

[FrizzleFried]

X evidently has "zero" understanding of the market required for pinball to succeed.  Unfortunately the market isn't there...hasn't been there for quite a few years now,  and the chances of Stern staying in business selling "kits" to home users is about as realistic as death trains rolling to domestic human holding facilities....

[Mauzy]

X evidently has "zero" understanding of the market required for pinball to succeed.  Unfortunately the market isn't there...hasn't been there for quite a few years now,  and the chances of Stern staying in business selling "kits" to home users is about as realistic as death trains rolling to domestic human holding facilities....

BA ZOW!

[Xiaou2]

 Why dont you go look on ebay and witness sales of Pinball machines EVERY FREEKING
DAY!    Most of these are sold for well over $1000... and most are $2500 to $3500.
And some restored machines are selling for $4000 -  +$7000

 Medieval Madness cant be found for less than $5000 unless the seller is a fool.
Indiana Jones (Williams) continues to grow in its value..  and now for a good
condition machine is around $3000 for a 15yr old machine.

 Many of the buyers of these machines are home owners.   Yet, there are markets
for businesses and ops.   

 None of which are going to feed into lame themes like CSI, or Wheel of Fortune!
Even the people who play out arnt going to feed those machines quarters.


 As for Bing Bang Bar... the cost was very high because of a very limited number run,
as well as the guy getting crap quality work which had to be re-done several times.
(at his own cost)

 If he had a factory set up like Stern... where everything is done In-House... then
he wouldnt have had the Vendor issues to deal with and would have stayed on
budget.   And that was on an extremely small run.   

 Pinball isnt dead, and will not die.   Visit a pinball show,  and meet up with
collectors,  and you will see that these machines will be around forever...
and in time...  SOMEONE will make replacement parts and kits.   I never said
Stern would.   (Just as SOME have started to make ARCADE parts for us BYOAC people)


 While making pins is not an easy task... its far from impossible.   

 When someone brought up the idea of making a video arcade machine that
plays old arcade games...  were they shunned off as crazy?   Well look at what
we have here...  Thousands of arcade projects.   Many not even listed on this
site.   Not just simple boxes either... But cabinets with incredible complexity,
detailed artwork, and great woodworking.

 A BYO pinball machine is not very much more than what it takes to BYOAC.

[RayB]

Collector market != Mass market

[Mauzy]

Im gonna have to say I agree with 99% of what Xiaou just said. Pins do sell pretty well on ebay, and if I had the money, I would most definitely build my own pin...

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a BYOPBM forum within a few years.

[Xiaou2]

 Thanks Mauzy.

 As for money...  Well,  just think about whatever else you have not had the money
for... and eventually,  you got it.     A lot of people didnt have money to BYOAC,
but sooner or later.. that passion led to them getting what they desired.   Its really
no different with Pinball.

 In fact, the draw of a good playing pinball can actually surpass the value of video games... In that most video games are almost always the same each time you play them.  However,  a Pinball machine has a Random element to it... so that every game will be completely different.  There is both skill and luck in there.

 Also, there is a completely different type of draw to pinball.   Its much more
of physical game of skill... and its "feel" just can not be duplicated in video form.


 I have to say... that Originally I wasnt a big fan of Pinball... Until I found the right
machine.   That happened to be Black Knight 2000.   Then later, I was exposed
to No Fear... which also grew on me.   Once I went to pin shows and got to play
at collectors basements... the Love grew on me to the point where I got the fever,
and HAD to have a machine.   (Which then multiplied to two.. )

 
 As for Collector Market = Mass market comment....


 First off...  At one point in time,  The general mass Public didnt even realize it was
possible to purchase arcade machines.     Used machines for sale  were also a rarity
because Ops tended to just use the cabs for conversion kits.   Pins were generally
just repaired over and over... and moved to other locations.    Certainly some were
sold... but it wasnt a huge known thing.    Most sales back then were from entire fallen
arcades machines going to a physical auction... which were not always well known.

 Later... as the industry was starting to fall apart..  Used games started to be sold
outright on a one-by-one basis.   Things really started to cook with the internet sales.


Now,

   Why do you think the big companies started to release games from the
arcades to Home Console systems so quickly?    Because there is a greater number
of customers out there!   They can actually make more money selling home ports than
made in selling full coinop equipment.


  I used the term collector... however.. I could have really used  Enthusiast.   
Such as a "Video game Enthusiast".

 And trust me... even if You dont have a pin... there are a LOT of people out there who
do.   And many of them have several, if not entire basements filled with them.

 Being that the Population is growing every day... and that there are people out there
who were kids when Pinball was more public,  and Now they actually have money...
there are a lot of potential customers out there.

 I can tell you that Ive met the Local pinball collector/enthusiast here in my small
city... and its a lot bigger than you would think.   I personally know enough collectors here to fill a room... and thats just the people Ive managed to meet.   Theres a lot more
that I have not met.    A lot of these guys and gals have a minimum of two machines,
and many have entire basements worth.   Mixes of Videos and Pins.

 
 Also, go to the latest Pinball show, and you will see something like 300 pins easily.
Most of which are owned by citizens, and not businesses.    Then, look at the shear
Number of pins that Willams made for ONE popular machine... and realize that most
all of them are still in operation,  and many are in someones house.   And that is only
ONE of the THOUSANDS of machines made of that SINGLE PINBALL TITLE.

[shardian]

The coin-op pin market has been dead for over a decade. The home market was the only thing keeping Stern above water. Your ebay example is not evidence for your case Xiaou, it is the exact reason why commercial production of pins is in death throes. Why buy a POS from Stern for $4k, when you can get any(with a handful of exceptions) mint condition excellent game for $3k or less? Sure, collectors are still spending, but the economic downturn has pushed most collectors back to the cheaper used market.


And Xiaou, when was the last time you saw a pin on a route? Okay, now tell me when was the last time you saw a pin on route that even covered its electrical expenses?

[FrizzleFried]

Case in point:  Whirlwind at The Pizza Factory around the corner from my house.  Talking with the owner of the pizza joint and they want it gone.  Why?  NO ONE ever plays it.  They say they collect 10x as much each of the different video games there... even R-Type pulls more dough.

"I think they pulled MAYBE $10.00 out of that machine last month"...that's what she said about whirlwind (and probably $3.00 of that $10.00 was mine!)

[RayB]

Xiau, you seem to be arguing there's a market for new machines, and yet at the same time, supporting the reasons why there isn't enough of a market...

There are pinball machines floating out there from rmore than 6 decades worth of manufacturing. They are all for the most part second hand machines. A crap load of those sales have very little overhead cost. Someone finds bargains on craigslist, or in a warehouse, cleans them up, then sells them for a profit. Those guys don't have the overhead of having to order X # of minimum parts to keep costs down, then assemble it all, and then try to make a profit on top of their base costs, manufacturing labour, factory lease, insurance, marketing, distribution, (ad nauseum).

So go for it dude. Try selling brand new machines that are somehow better than Stern's yet cost less, and make a profit on top. Stern already acknowledged that half their sales go to the home market (and yet we're talking less than 10,000 machines per year).

The only way it could work IMO would be to shift all the manufacturing to China and really cut down on features. No coin door. Fewer or no mechanical toys. Generic parts. You'd end up with something half way between a Stern and a "Zizzle" toy. Who'd want that? Not the guys you pointed out buying $2000 machines off Ebay.

PS: Another caveat is the machines on ebay that sell for big coin retain their value. Purchase something new though, and you sure as hell are not going to get that much when you decide to sell it. So you can't compare collectibles to new items equally.

[ChadTower]

The only way it could work IMO would be to shift all the manufacturing to China and really cut down on features. No coin door. Fewer or no mechanical toys. Generic parts. You'd end up with something half way between a Stern and a "Zizzle" toy. Who'd want that?

You'd end up with almost any pin made in the 80s.  Seems to me a lot of those games are pretty good.  Hard to say if they would be competitive on location now, though.  It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick.

[shardian]

You'd end up with almost any pin made in the 80s.  Seems to me a lot of those games are pretty good.  Hard to say if they would be competitive on location now, though.  It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick.

I still don't understand why Stern never added a ticket dispenser option to their pins. I have heard it from so many people it is ridiculous - "That game doesn't give out tickets. Why would I play that?"

Sad but true, that is why the pins never get played by the young-uns at the gambling training centers...I mean Chuck-E-Cheese.

If there were a ticket dispensing option, there would be a person at the game non-stop.

[ChadTower]

Idiots that spend $15 playing crappy games to get $1.25 worth of useless crap.  It's like the lottery - a voluntary tax on people who are bad at math.

[Xiaou2]

collectors are still spending, but the economic downturn has pushed most collectors back to the cheaper used market.

 WHAT?!   Are you NUTS?!

   Collectors seek out GOOD GAMES.  Its matters not if they are new or old.  In fact,
they will pay MORE for a USED OLD game that is BETTER than a POS STERN.

 Why buy a brand new machine that is inferior in Art quality, sound Quality,
Gamplay Quality...etc?!

 Thats the damn point.   Make a Pin that is WORTH BUYING AND PEOPLE WILL BUY IT!

 Lets look at some numbers:


Pinball Machine                           Machines Sold
------------------------------------------------------------
Adams Family                               20,270
Indiana Jones (Williams)              12,716
Creature from the Black Lagoon   7841
Theatre of Magic                           6600

Bad Cats:                                    2,500
Congo                                           2129

 Hmm, can you tell me which games had  Horrific Theme choices from the
sales figures?   Or could you simply tell by looking at the names?   
It dont take a Rocket Scientist to make the connection here.   You pick a crappy
theme... add poor gameplay... and you get **** for sales.


 Lets look at a Stern:

Monopoly              3640
Lord of the Rings  5100

( Id put up other Stern Figures..  But I assume they must be very low cause they
simply are not posted anywhere)
 

 Hmmm,   Monopoly?!   What the hell kind of Pinball theme is that?!   You really
think it was bad economy that lead to such low sales?!   Nope.  It was HORRIBLE
THEME CHOICE.

 LOTR did better clearly...  however,  if anyone has played LOTR for a bit... well,
its really not that good.  Still... at least it 'Looks' decent... and is one of the few Sterns
that has an 'ok' gameplay to it.    Still.. .most people when given the choice of buying
a LOTR and a Theatre of Magic... will always choose the TOM.   Its simply a better
game all around.

 But what we really dont see... which would be the real kicker... is "on location"
earnings.    Place a Monopoly, Ripleys, Wheel of Fortune, Nascar..etc.. next to any
of those Williams machines and you will quickly see the difference at the end of week.


 You really think Ripleys,  World Poker Tour,  or  CSI   will sell well in even a Good
economy???!!!    Get real man.   Its utter garbage that only the truly tasteless
would desire.    If Ive offended you... Tough cookies.   Lack or interest & Sales prove it.
The masses dont agree with your assessments/opinions.

"It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick."

 One of the main reasons... is that the ball eaters usually actually Work 100% most
of the time when you go to play them.    Unlike Pinball,  which is usually riddled with
mechanical problems, many that could be avoided with better designs and materials.
 
 Pinball basically died, because the fans who love the game simply got tired of dropping coins in broken machines that are no fun to play.

A crap load of those sales have very little overhead cost.

 I was making the point that People have money to spend on Pinball Machines.... and
do so EVERY DAY.   If you believe that the economy is bad... fine...  but then, why
are people Still buying Pins EVERY DAY on EBAY???    Thousands of machines are sold
each day.    Thats a LOT of money, and a HUGE customer base.

 If someone has the choice between buying a $3500  Williams Indiana Jones...
and the latest greatest New machine that stomps it in looks, sound, rules/depth,
and gameplay...  for only $1500 more...   its going to be a case of pinball fever ripping
the credit card right out of the wallet for the new machine.  Afford it or not.. people
buy what they desire.   SOme who cant afford it now, may buy 2 used machines.. and
later sell them off to buy a brand new pin.    Or will go so far as to sell off other
things from other hobbies to make the money needed.

 But, as stated over and over... its got to be Worth it.   Its got to be a real
masterpiece.   Its got to be a great theme,  great art, great play,  modern technology.

 Only a select few Mindless Ops would bust out the wallet for Wheel Of Fortune. lol
My Grama sure aint buying one,  and shes watched the show forever!   lol

"Try selling brand new machines that are somehow better than Stern's yet cost less"

 Who said anything about costing less?

 Fist off... Wasnt Williams machines selling for about the same as what Stern sells their
TURDS for now?   

 As for my opinion... I believe pins could be made sold at higher prices and still sell
better than sterns in the crappiest economy.    An object of great desire will Always
hold value,  and always will be bought.

 

"Re: Wirlwind:   NO ONE ever plays it."

 Wirlwind isnt the best title.  In fact, I think it plays like crap.  But beyond that,  Just
how well does it even work?   Id be willing to bet its beat to hell with sensors that
dont register,  sticking flippers, slow play cause its so filthy..etc.   

 Put in a decent title like  MM or Indy... and have it working 100% and it would get
played.   

 When I was like 15,  I walked into my local arcade.. and there was a new pin.

 Black Knight 2000.    Id played a few other pins there like Funhouse, and some
others... but they were not that fun,  so didnt really put much into them.   But I figure
id give this one a try...

 The Sound Track was Rockin.  The ball was lightning fast... and the lightshow was
spectacular.  I was hooked.    I must have dropped $15  into that machine that night
playing nearly nonstop and Loving it.    The most I had ever put into a pin in a night
may have been a single dollar at most.

 I came back next weekend to play... however, this time... the Flipper that makes
the shot up to the main ramp wasnt working well.   It became underpowered... and so
no matter what, you couldnt get the upper playfeild... and it Ruined the game.   I left
after the 1st game in frustration.    They never fixed it properly, and eventually, the
game was gone, never to be seen again.


 Making  Pins more reliable would have kept that machine earning very well... and
Ops would have made their money back and a ton of profit on top.   Yet, with
crapily designed machines that take way too much maintenance... and the Ops arnt
going to be able to keep it up enough to actually make good money on it.

 Customers will always think the thing is bused, even when its been fixed... because
of bad past experiences.    And soon, the pin is being sold away or sitting in the corner
collecting dust,  not paying for itself, and not making any profit...  and the Ops not
going to buy another one...

[Xiaou2]

Sorry... but I cant help myself...

 CSI   !!!

 

[shardian]

Technically, Addams was a horrible theme. The gameplay is great though. Pinball died, just as arcades have died. Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene. Accept it, and get over it. No amount of 'awesomeness' in any game Stern made or makes will revive the scene to what it was before.

P.S. I like Addams now, but the staircase is still by far the ugliest toy ever put on a pinball machine. That game simply defied all logic by selling as many units as it did.

[Mauzy]

Technically, Addams was a horrible theme. The gameplay is great though. Pinball died, just as arcades have died. Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene. Accept it, and get over it. No amount of 'awesomeness' in any game Stern made or makes will revive the scene to what it was before.

P.S. I like Addams now, but the staircase is still by far the ugliest toy ever put on a pinball machine. That game simply defied all logic by selling as many units as it did.

Just curious, what was wrong with the Addams Family theme? At least there was a reason for it to exist (recent movie release) unlike Monopoly and the like...

[shardian]

Hello! Cheesy 'flavor of the month' movie license! That is what Stern is being criticized for anymore.

[Mauzy]

But atleast it was a quality PLAYING game. I can take a hit in the theme if it plays pretty solid, but then again I actually enjoyed the movie as a kid too.  What Stern was doing was making games with crappy theme AND crappy play. Not many people can accept both.

[shardian]

I tend to look at it as Stern was taking Excellent themes, implementing them poorly and making them crappy, then pairing it with crappy play to complete the whole crappy package. Perfect examples: POTC and Batman. Williams would have LOVED to get themes like that back in the day, and would have made games for them that outshined TAF and TZ.

[ChadTower]

Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene.

That's not accurate... pin production numbers were decent in the 70s and did decline once vids hit the scene.  Then they shot way back up in 1986 when High Speed came out.  They were pretty high for quite a while there with multiple companies making multiple high production titles.  High Speed was over 17,000 which is very high for pinball.  Skipping a couple years you go forward to Addams Family in '92 at over 20k and Twilight Zone in '93 over 15k.  It fell of really fast not long after that, though.

I think there could be one more big run for pinball.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there willing to take the financial risk since the odds are really low but there is a concept out there that could spark another 4-5 year strong run.  We thought vids were dead too until the music games hit North America.

[koolmoecraig]

Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene.

That's not accurate... pin production numbers were decent in the 70s and did decline once vids hit the scene.  Then they shot way back up in 1986 when High Speed came out.  They were pretty high for quite a while there with multiple companies making multiple high production titles.  High Speed was over 17,000 which is very high for pinball.  Skipping a couple years you go forward to Addams Family in '92 at over 20k and Twilight Zone in '93 over 15k.  It fell of really fast not long after that, though.

I think there could be one more big run for pinball.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there willing to take the financial risk since the odds are really low but there is a concept out there that could spark another 4-5 year strong run.  We thought vids were dead too until the music games hit North America.

Yeah wasn't '92-'94 the biggest sales #'s ever?

The DMD display really kicked sales into high gear.

[WareWolF]

I played WOF the other day and it actually IS a fun game. 
It is probably one of the best playing sterns ever. 
If you do not play it because you do not like the 'theme' you are being foolish.

[Xiaou2]

You say WOF is fun?  You ever play ANY williams machines?   Which ones?  Cause its
highly doubtful any Stern can compare in fun to a good Willams machine.

Not only that... but its  WOF !!!    Not only would I look pathetic playing such a
theme... but the theme does nothing to inspire me at All.  In fact, I dont even like
to watch the show.

 Nope.  I wont be playing WOF.

 I made the mistake of trying their new Indiana pin... and it was so bad
that it was the Last time Id play a Stern.   And ya know what... Ive played
many of their games (for free)... cause some of the collectors I know have a thing
for Sterns. (Very bad tastes)

 LOTR is the only one Id even consider putting money into if I was out.  Buy it? Nah.
(well, not unless it was under $600 and in good condition!  heh)
 
Play is limited, and game is very cheap on the edge drains on the easiest post
setting (poor design).  Sound is muffled and drab. Looks decent.. but printed artwork
is pathetic (lowres, drab colors, crap).  The path of dead is stupid n useless.


POTC is soso.  Not really good enough for me to drop coin. Not worthy of purchase.
Sounds are very bad on this.  Annoying quotes.  Parts where voices overlap. Poor audio quality as always.


 Spiderman is a snorefest.   Its literally no fun at all.

 Simpsons Pinball Party plays awkward and isnt very fun cause of that.
Usually way too easy (play forever).  The upper level thing is cool.. and heck, good theme... but... poor play IMOP   just ruins it.  Also not many good shots.

 Family Guy is a train wreck.  Im not a big fan of the show... but the play/flow is worse
than Simpsons.  It looks bad too.   Has nothing inspiring at all.   Then again,  the show
isnt very inspiring either.  A really crappy theme choice.

 T3 - Too many ramps leading to other ramps?!  Why?!  Stale crusty gameplay.
Pingpong idea stupid... and worse... it doesnt work well.  (bad accuracy, and
assembly is prone to problems)

[shardian]

You forgot to critique Elvis - which is by far my favorite Stern Pin.

Unfortunately, the route one I play just keeps getting worse and worse. Hardly anything works on it anymore. The only bad thing I can say about Elvis is the cheesy hotel design. Slap an aftermarket molded hotel on there and you have an excellent all around game.

[Cyberflexx]

You forgot to critique Elvis - which is by far my favorite Stern Pin.

Unfortunately, the route one I play just keeps getting worse and worse. Hardly anything works on it anymore. The only bad thing I can say about Elvis is the cheesy hotel design. Slap an aftermarket molded hotel on there and you have an excellent all around game.

Elvis friggin rocks..If I had my choice right now, I would pick that or Austin Powers..

[ChadTower]

IMO Elvis is a decent game but really suffers from not enough quality music clips.  Movie themes can get away with that but when your whole theme revolves around sound and the sound is poor...

[RayB]

Lets see, pin #s declined due to vids (and let's face it, lack of innovation in pins). Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation. It was an exciting and different pin to play (I remember when I played it for the first time, it really wowed me) and they (Williams, Bally, etc) had the benefit of arcades still being popular.

So then arcades decline... so does pin interest... then BAM 92/93 it reignites? Let's see what coincides with this time period? Oh yes, Street Fighter II. The game that brought people BACK to arcades and coin-op entertainment back to mom & pop stores, etc.

And then it declines again. And through the 90's the pin companies bail out one by one as the market shrank (in step with arcade popularity!). Gottlieb, Bally, Sega, Capcom, then finally Williams. One by one.

My point: Pinball survived and had its ups and downs THANKS to video arcades. People went to play SF2, and put a few quarters in the pins while they were at it, not the other way around. I think Stern using mass market licenses has had a big role in helping keep them alive for as long as they have. A movie or television tie-in is going to fit into a general public setting like a bar much more than some geeky theme like dungeons and dragons. Hardcore pin fans might not like it, but hey, do you build a business catering to a market of 1,000 hardcore or do you try to cater to the millions of casual players? Even the video game industry right now is facing tough choices. They can spend $10 million on a AAA hardcore game that might not even break even, or spend $400,000 on a more casual mass market type of game that sells to everyone and their grandma.

It's over. The best pinball game design won't bring anyone back to playing pins enough to thrive. Maybe a niche collector market could work if costs are kept really low, but there won't be any profit. It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Factory has done and is trying to do.

[ChadTower]

It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Company has done.

And Classic Playfield Reproductions.  What those guys have done is amazing.  Not a ton of profit in their setup - and it's actually pretty small when you consider how much product they put out.

[RayB]

*Edit* Fixed the name there of Pinball Factory, but there's also "Pinball Manufacturing" who did a run of Big Bang Bar. I remember reading that someone at one of those companies guy dumped $1 million into a project and didn't make his money back

[Mauzy]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was so innovative in High Speed? Ive never played it, but Ive played The Getaway quite a bit.

[RayB]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was so innovative in High Speed? Ive never played it, but Ive played The Getaway quite a bit.

It's hard to describe... relying on memory and scanning through ipdb.org by year is helping me remember... Williams was already doing "ok" with pins like Comet and Space Shuttle, and Bally had a few good ones too, but in general leading up to the release of High Speed, pin play was usually on a flat playfield, and you'd hit the ball here and there and there were sounds... Yay. What High Speed really nailed as I remember, was a "feeling" like you get playing a really well tweaked classic video game (like comparing Centipede to boring space shooters that preceded its release). In HS they really managed to convey a feeling that your game had a "progression" to it -- taking off in a car and then you're chased by cops, and there's a full music sound track keeping the adrenaline going, plus extra "toys" like a real rotating emergency light on the top.

In other words they really nailed creating excitement, and conveying the theme (whereas most pinballs before, you had a theme, yes, but it was just art to look at, sound effects to hear, and some things to bat the ball at). You can see how they were ramping up this kind of attention to detail in their design of Comet for example, and also creating more "height" within the playfield to make more room for ramps and extra stuff, so it's not all flat. The production numbers speak for themselves (over 17,000 units of HS when 2000-3000 units was usually the norm).

Pin Bot was then released same year and it too had some real cool features, sold a lot.

Do an advanced search at www.ipdb.org and enter just a year. It's interesting to see the unit numbers and how Williams took a clear lead. Compare playfield designs and you can see how much more went into Williams pins. (For example compare "Bad Girls" to "Cyclone").

[pinballwizard79]

Mustard 

[ChadTower]

High Speed didn't save pinball on its own.  It was the game that finally was the right balance between speed, progression, and fun.  It was just a great game.  The game that turned everything on its ear and started the industry turnaround was Black Knight.  First multilevel playfield, first magna save, first timed bonus balls, insane speed and looping, far deeper difficulty than usual.  It was a major advance in pinball concepts.  It was such a jump in difficulty, though, that I think it lost a lot of the more casual players, which is where High Speed came back in.  High Speed combined enough of those advancements in a game that was very intuitive to understand and accessible to novices but was hard enough to master that it kept the hardcore players happy.  That's when the sales numbers shot way up.

[Mauzy]

Neat. Thanks for the info guys.

[Xiaou2]

Lets see, pin #s declined due to vids (and let's face it, lack of innovation in pins). Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.

 - Vids are hard to compete with.. but, most times pinball lost revenues simply due to
the fact that the pins were broken in some way,  and broken way too often.

 As seen with High Speed... Innovation and good play can create a highly desired
experience that people are willing to pay for.. and can get Hooked on. Sadly, that idea
of innovation has been drying up every since the 90s... and almost ALL innovation has been stripped away from every creative industry.  Its incredibly sad... and such a waste.  Mostly due to the money men... who have NO CLUE what creativity and Fun really mean.  Such people should not have so much power as they are Ruining the world.

So then arcades decline... so does pin interest... then BAM 92/93 it reignites? Let's see what coincides with this time period? Oh yes, Street Fighter II. The game that brought people BACK to arcades and coin-op entertainment back to mom & pop stores, etc.

 The initial shock of innovation of Video games created an inflated demand on the
experience and production.  The industry should have foreseen that such demand
would eventually level off to 'normal' levels instead of Obsessive levels.

 In fact, many Ops where I live never did poorly.  We had more than 3 huge arcades
which did very well all during the so called industry crash... and did well up into the
early 90s... when it seemed that creativity and innovation was starting to die.

 Street Fighter II was one of those games which had everything that people
wanted.  Its enhanced gameplay over typical fighters really created that magic
innovation that drove people to the Obsessive levels again.  Which is why even
corner stores could buy them and make money.  2player dual also is a good
way to get people hooked... as many single player games just do not have that
same pull.  Its the competition of real human intelligence that adds to the experience
and draw.  Single player games dont quite have that same power / draw.

 However, even new SF games wont make very good money now. They stopped innovation on the series, and people want something more. Its simply the same old hat
with new graphic dressing.  New graphics/sounds  alone just dont cut it.
 
 (Its actually quite embarrassing that Capcom used such a dated engine compared to
the superior engine of say... Tekken III.   It wasnt the 3d that made Tekken 3 good,
it was the gameplay engine innovation.)

And then it declines again. And through the 90's the pin companies bail out one by one as the market shrank (in step with arcade popularity!). Gottlieb, Bally, Sega, Capcom, then finally Williams. One by one.

 What sad.. is that the decline could had been prevented if companies didnt get
cheap and lazy.  They based their entire model on high traffic areas instead
of typical establishments.  IE: Tourist area will Always made good money because
its high traffic location.  Asian locations have High population densities... so even poor
traffic is good traffic.  Not understanding this caused them to be lazy and cheap.. as
well as innovation dying out as clone wars spun out of control.


 Pinball had too much trouble in the 90s because many pins in the past failed to get
impressive returns... so even of a Pin was good... Ops didnt trust trying to invest in
them.  As well as taking up too much time in maintenance as stated over and
over again.

My point: Pinball survived and had its ups and downs THANKS to video arcades. People went to play SF2, and put a few quarters in the pins while they were at it, not the other way around.

 Pinball is a niche market.  But there is always room for it.  As well as die hards who
can get hooked on it.  It really depends on how good the machine is.

 Machines that once didnt sell well could be remade today and sell a lot of them.  Part
of this has to do with the change of times.  The internet allows widespread coverage
and reviews to carry over to the needed levels to generate massive level of interest.
Remember that we are talking worldwide sales potential.

 Not only that... but now home owners have made the realization that they can
buy machines... and again, with internet vids/reviews... it can draw a lot of
interest.  Possibly Huge number of sales if the machine was very Hot.


 

I think Stern using mass market licenses has had a big role in helping keep them alive for as long as they have. A movie or television tie-in is going to fit into a general public setting like a bar much more than some geeky theme like dungeons and dragons.

 Sorry, but your Wrong.  Wheel of Fortune is a show that old ladies watch. Its not
a theme that kids with quarters are going to drop in.  CSI?  Ive seen the show... It
has its moments... but has No bearing on Pinball.  The characters dont
draw me in. The only reason the show in interesting is because its not predictable.

 People dont fantasize about CSI or Wheel of Fortune!  However, they might
think about being an Elf with pinpoint arrow accuracy and magical powers.  A warrior wielding a sword collecting treasures.. battling mystical creatures..etc.

 They might thing about flying an F16 in a dogfight.  Or battling the evils of the
dreaded Black Knight.  Or even to be stuck in the Erie Haunted house.  Or how about
attacking and seizing the Castle?

  CSI?  Only if nothing else is interesting on TV at the time.

 House?  Love the show...  Great characters...  but a possible Pinball theme?
Nope.  Id never play it... especially not Own it!


 No... these Themes only serve to DESTROY Pinball forever.  Putting the Worst
possible spin on the game in all of History.

 
 As for the good themes like Batman, and even Spiderman....  They were carried
out so poorly... that they again damaged Pinballs reputation.   A huge step
backwards from machines made 15 yrs before them.

 If they were done right... they could have sold a Lot more machines, and started
a resurgence of interest.   Instead... they cut every corner possible, and made
the cheapest POS possible... thinking that the name alone would sell the things.

 In fact... its funny cause Stern still thinks that the Ops are buying them.. and that like
in the past... the Ops will buy Popular titles like Batman on name alone!   Nope.  Many
of their buyers are home owners... who use the net to see what the game is all
about.. as well as read up on of the tons of personal reviews. (as well as word of
mouth experience from known good sources)   Even Ops are using the net to
make sure too.  Times have changed.. but Stern has not.

Hardcore pin fans might not like it, but hey, do you build a business catering to a market of 1,000 hardcore or do you try to cater to the millions of casual players?

 Define casual player?  You really think the casual player is a guy who gets a
woody seeing  World Poker  /  CSI  /  Wheel of Fortune?    Wrong.

 Just cause I like Snickers bars dont mean I get excited to play a Snickers
themed machine!  Same thing for TV Shows.  Fn Idiots!


 Art appeals to all people.  A good themed game will outsell any of those crappy
themes mentioned. 

 Proof?   Put a restored 100% working Medieval Madness next to All of the Themes
Ive mentioned here and watch where the money goes.   And tell me which one
you think people would rather Own? 

 And again... for the Good themes they get... make them crappy to play and
not very innovative... and people wont play them past the 1st quarter.  Just like
Street Fighter wont sell for crap today... with that same 'old hat'  engine.


 

Even the video game industry right now is facing tough choices. They can spend $10 million on a AAA hardcore game that might not even break even, or spend $400,000 on a more casual mass market type of game that sells to everyone and their grandma.

 Are you NUTS!   The game companies are Losing people because they chose to make
games so crappy/generic.  Its Innovation that sells games by the Truckloads.  Why do you think PC games are just about dead?  Cause they are All making the same exact
game type over and over again.

 SFII was innovative.  Yup, took a lot more time and energy to produce than the
original fighters of the time.  Yet look at the results.  HUGE returns.   And what
about DRAGONS LAIR?!   Dragons Lair was a Huge innovation, and made Ooodles
of money.  Its STILL Making money Today!

 The clones?  Lackluster craptastic sales... as expected.

 What games made a huge impact more recently?  Rhythm games like Guitar Hero.
Innovation.    (However, if they dont innovate that again soon,  its going to die
soon too.  Its already old to the people who first got into it)

It's over. The best pinball game design won't bring anyone back to playing pins enough to thrive. Maybe a niche collector market could work if costs are kept really low, but there won't be any profit. It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Factory has done and is trying to do.

 There is still money to be made.  However,  profits will never be what they used
to be in the 80s when the arcade experience was the new thing.   They especially
wont get far without innovations as Ive said before...  and certainly are on the way
to self destruction by being cheap and using horrific themes.

 Just like the Video game industry is gone to hell.   Just think,  the population has
risen by a massive percent since the 80s.   Sales of games should be astronomical.
Yet, they arnt cause most gamers are sick of buying absolute Garbage.   The money
men THINK that sales are improving because of population boosts.. yet,  in reality..
they couldnt be doing worse to ruin things.

Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.

 So lets see,  you say that INNOVATION, good THEME, and QUALITY brought Pinball back from the Dead RIGHT?  (and then contradict yourself later...)

[RayB]

Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation.

So lets see,  you say that INNOVATION, good THEME, and QUALITY brought Pinball back from the Dead RIGHT?  (and then contradict yourself later...)

Well, my point totally flew over your head. VIDEO arcades were hot. VIDEO arcades happened to still have pinballs, but they were pretty much boring. Highspeed was innovative, and it did well thanks to the VIDEO ARCADE audience that was already frequenting arcades and happened to play pinball too. Again in 92/93 SFII brought an audience back into arcades, where they happened to play pinball too. It can't happen again because arcades are pretty much dead. You could design a new pin as great as Medieval Madness and no one will know about it, because the audience has dissipated.  You could advertise the game on TV and people will be "ok, where do I play it?" and there will be nowhere for them to go! Arcades are gone!

If a "Medieval Madness" equivalent would be the saviour of pinball now, why did they sell only 4,016 units (a rather low number compared to the 5 digit sales of other popular titles) ?

[Xiaou2]

 My points flew over your head.

 Todays pinball buyers are mostly going to be Home owners.  (or ops who plan
to resell the pin to homeowners after a short run on location)

 But, that does not mean that some bar or restaurant wouldnt pick one up as well.

 Pinball was actually BIGGER when there were no video games.  It can work
on its own... as Pinball has its own special draw to it.   Videos have to be replaced
every 2yrs or people wont play them.  Yet a good pinball will never have to be replaced,
as every game is a new game.  Its always going to be different every time you play it.

 

Medieval Madness and no one will know about it,

 Wrong again.  People interested in pinball can easily find out what is new by the
Internet.  Pinballnews.com,   newsgroups,  Youtube videos,  collectors word or mouth,
and more.   In fact, today,  its EASIER to let people know about new products than
it ever was when Williams was around.

 Back then, OPs had to guess if a machine was going to be good or not.  There
was 'some' videos passed around to Some ops... but most were buying without
ever seeing a machine... only maybe seeing a picture at most.

why did they sell only 4,016 units

 One factor was exactly what I stated above, and in my other posts.  That Ops
were buying blind.   And when they had enough problems with a few bad earners,
as well as the constant mechanical problems,  and a decline in traffic...  all added up
to the death in pinball sales.    Also, as said... that pins which may have done
well and were maintained didnt have to be replaced.   And finally... who knows what
poor advertising methods were used.  They may have cut back on cold-calls, flyers,
video tapes sent... and more.

Today, they can record actual game footage of real people enjoying a machine...
pop in on youtube,  and send a link to known vendors and ops.   Links to reviews
can be made as well.   


 I will say, that a lot of the fun on MM is the great funny quotes that come up.  Sadly,
Id bet that many of those were not always heard will in a busy arcade enviornment.
And, Im not merely saying that MM is the best.  Its just one of the top.  There
are others that would re-sell well again too.   Yet, I think at this stage, pinball need
that new innovation to go the real distance.

[ChadTower]

So maybe they need to tie pinball to redemption now... 

[Xiaou2]

 Pinball has always been an 'older kid' & or adult game.  Its beyond the skill of most young kids.  Make it too easy for them... and the adults will not have any fun.

 Originally,  Pinball was made as Gambling machines.  Later, they faced termination
because of that... so they changed the game.

 The EM machines are a lot slower playing, and may be easier for all ages to
maintain longer play. 

 Modern machines are a lot faster...  And it would seem that many people
dont realize that they are made to be shook around in order to play fair.  This
can turn people off towards pins... cause if they dont realize this, the pin will
seem to be unfair.

 
 As for redemption... There isnt much use in making pins like that.  Again they would have
to be easier,  as well as more childish themed / brightly colored.   The height would have
to be lowered so kids even could see the field to be interested. 

 But more problematic,  would be that redemption is just about vanished with the
vanishing arcades.

 
 However, I did have the idea that a pin could have a Printer onboard,  that a business
such as a pizza place could use.  For example... if customers played the machine and did well while waiting... they may have a chance to win a coupon off their meal... a free meal,
or something else.    Not quite gambling,  because you get play time out of it..
and only win limited service.


 There is always the faint hope that arcades could made a comeback...  but its very
doubtful that will every happen because of the stranglehold of idiocracy and power
of the money men... who have sucked dry all the creativity, and ruined every bit of fun
and art in this modern world.

[RayB]

There is always the faint hope that arcades could made a comeback...  but its very
doubtful that will every happen because of the stranglehold of idiocracy and power
of the money men... who have sucked dry all the creativity, and ruined every bit of fun
and art in this modern world.

Yeah OK.  People want to game at home now. End of story.

But your optimism is admirable I guess.

[Cakemeister]

I think Xiaou meant speed of ball, not length of game.

[CheffoJeffo]

Sorry... but I cant help myself...

 CSI   !!!

 

What is really worthy of laughs is that the guy who is proclaiming to be oh-so-wise about the current (and future) state of pinball didn't already know that Stern had a license for CSI ... I can't wait until he hears about 24 ....

 

[Xiaou2]

What is really worthy of laughs is that the guy who is proclaiming to be oh-so-wise about the current (and future) state of pinball didn't already know that Stern had a license for CSI ... I can't wait until he hears about 24 ....

 I have Many hobbies (and other things I do)  ...Not just this one Bud.

 Its not like Im actively searching out what Stern is up to all the time... cause really,
its been all crap for YEARS...  so why the hell would I even care?!   There was always the hope that they would Wise UP, and make something worthwhile... but its pretty much clear that its Never going to happen with them.


 I decided to have a laugh and see what was coming down the pike... and to be
honest, I was shocked at the stupidity.  A new alltime low!  Its one thing to make a bad game... as getting everything right is no easy task..   However, its quite another, to choose such a Lame excuse for a theme.  Its really inexcusable.   A real slap in the face to the Art of Pinball, and to Pinball fans everywhere worldwide.


 Picking such a theme is either extreme stupidity on Sterns part... or the Only way they
can get  STUPID  bankers to give them any money at all.  Such Idiocy cant last much
longer... or at least... it shouldnt.

[CheffoJeffo]

Picking such a theme is either extreme stupidity on Sterns part... or the Only way they
can get  STUPID  bankers to give them any money at all.  Such Idiocy cant last much
longer... or at least... it shouldnt.

You know, I can't find anything to argue with in that statement ... which is sad on a number of different levels ...

 

[Karetaker]

I'm surprised it didn't end when Williams/Bally quit production. Pinball's days have been numbered. It's just a matter of time. Any pinball manufacture needs operators to buy pins. Collectors can't save them. Operators don't want to buy them anymore because they don't make money. Sure, you find the occasional spot that does well. But, those locations are few and far between these days. People like the idea of pinball machines but don't play them on location much anymore. The drunks will scream for them. The bar owner who of course knows everything starts barking at the operator. You take one in to appease the location and it makes $20 in two weeks. You hand the location their share and you are just losing money on it. It's heading nowhere but south after that. There are many pieces out there that can sit in the same space and make more money. Pins just aren't profitable for operators. They get sold into the home market. That makes it worse because who wants to go out and play pinball when the have one of their own. New pinball machines will become a thing of the past. The only question is when.

[Namco]

Screw GM. They should bailout the Pinball industry.

[CheffoJeffo]

Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en

[ChadTower]

I played CSI on saturday... game had like 40 plays on it and the upper flipper fried itself.   

It does seem like it might be a decent game but sure doesn't look well built.

[ChadTower]

I got a laugh over 700 sales of Family Guy!  After 'Rare Hero' has been whoring his involvement in that game for 2 years on a daily basis on RGP.  Must have been a much needed slap in the face for him, though I'm sure it's now a "Cactus Canyon" level collectible in his mind.

I hate the FG license.  I completely ignored that game until it came out as Shrek.  Too bad nobody locally bought one.  I can't afford a new game and even if I could I'd probably buy 5 decent shopped older ones instead.

[shardian]

I think Gary was dealing with economic realities that the designers/coders/general public weren't privy to.

EXACTLY!

Steve Ritchie only showed up for a few months to design here and there by his own admission in his GRM interview. I guess he has forgot about that glowing pile of butt kiss that was that article back then huh?

[RayB]

Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en

Anyone wanting to know what he's responding to, it's Mark's post on this page: LINK

I must say "Mark" is spot on with his suggestions (but I think its all too late). Redemption showed obvious signs of taking over as far back as 10 years ago. Why was pinball not offered with ticket-dispensers? Why has pinball not been "redesigned" to keep up with the times? Even aesthetically, as Mark pointed out, the cabinet design is very old fashioned. It may be a "classic" look, but that means identifiying with an ever-aging customer base.

Why haven't LCD screens been integrated into pinball machines? Just look at how Pachinko has evolved in Japan (10" or larger HD lcd screens with full motion animations and interactive games mixed in--though admittedly, Pachinko is also on its way down in Japan).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijnAVA5ee8Y[/youtube]


I guess you can re-package the same game only so many times before people really tire of it. (I'm sick of platformers and formulaic hack n slash video games for example, so it's not a problem unique to just pinball).

Ritchie touched on a couple correct points though. Stern seems to be operating his business on a "this is the way it is" philosophy with zero room for R&D. Take Atari in its heyday for example, they would have dozens of games in development at the same time, lots of testing on location and then only the cream of the crop made it into full production. That's necessary, otherwise you end up producing even your mediocre games and that's just bad for everyone. But that takes a lot of cash to burn. In a shrinking market, that's probably just not possible?

[ChadTower]

Why has pinball not been "redesigned" to keep up with the times?

Why haven't LCD screens been integrated into pinball machines?

Williams had the right idea and just didn't give it enough time to grab market share. 

[ChadTower]

Maybe, maybe not.  SWEP1 and RFM were far worse than people generally remember, though.

I really like RFM.  SWEP1 relied to much on the license but Tilt gave some very plausible reasons why that game design fell so flat.  I'll always be convinced that the concept had serious potential that just didn't get a chance because of the corporate rug yank.

[ChadTower]

For as well as SWEP1 and RFM did, don't forget they were outsold by South Park.

Meh... Ops afraid of the new concept.  Tons of potential for new directions that South Park could never have had.  I'm hoping the NuCore guys will open things up a bit so homebrew minigames become possible.

[Mauzy]

Steve Ritchie's take on it ... when I was reading it, I thought he was channeling Xiaou2 ...

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/557be0c8fd315b20?hl=en

Thanks for posting that! Hearing it from someone on the inside adds a lot of credibility to the Stern bashing. Its kind of funny to me though that I almost found myself star struck reading something written by THE steve ritchie himself (Ive only known who he was for 6 months but the fact Ive played and enjoyed his games blows me away) until I realized he's not freakin eddie van halen... Hes a guy who does a job that happened to reach a relatively modest audience. I still enjoy reading something "from the inside".

[RayB]

Chad, that's one example. Too bad LCDs screens weren't cheap enough back then. They could have avoided the heat problem, weight and bulky "head" profile.

With today's cheap LCDs they could integrate small screens in all sorts of spots, even directly in the playfield and play full color video sequences off a hard drive (traditional or flash). Add to that some really cool lighting with LED sequencing. The more I think about it, the more I realize how stuck in the "traditional" past they've kept it all... hmmm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPo3aE412F8[/youtube]

[ChadTower]

Chad, that's one example.

Sure, it is only one, but one example of did is worth a billion could haves.

[Cakemeister]

Chad, that's one example. Too bad LCDs screens weren't cheap enough back then. They could have avoided the heat problem, weight and bulky "head" profile.

With today's cheap LCDs they could integrate small screens in all sorts of spots, even directly in the playfield and play full color video sequences off a hard drive (traditional or flash). Add to that some really cool lighting with LED sequencing. The more I think about it, the more I realize how stuck in the "traditional" past they've kept it all... hmmm

It would have been easy. Just put in a LCD where the DMD currently goes, run the machine on an Atom processor or similar, store programming code in flash, design something simple to control the lights, solenoids, and flippers, and you're done. Software updates would be easy, too. With current LED lighting you could even have color-changing flashers, something not currently available.

The LCD alone would have kept things interesting.

Back in 1999 maybe LCDs and multicolor LEDs were too expensive, but that's isn't an excuse now. Stern should have been innovating. They didn't, and now they're dead. Sucks for us pinball fans.

[ChadTower]

You won't see ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of NuCore.  Maybe a rule tweak or two, but nothing new.  The Bally-35 and old Stern code has been busted wide open for years and nobody has done ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- with that.

Those older platforms are embedded systems with limited resources.  That's a whole lot different than an emulator running on a PC.  I don't know the CPU for the Pin2k boardsets but so long as there are compilers out there this is a whole lot wider than the old games.  You're probably right to a certain extent that not many people are going to do much with it but NuCore already has functionality that Pin2k does not.  Plus the NuCore guys are talking about an API - that would be half the battle right there for homebrew - enough I'll at least poke through it myself eventually.

[shardian]

I agree that there is no excuse for Stern not switching from DMD to LCD.

[RayB]

LCDs would have been great, but Gary hired on all the old guard and told them to make Addam's Family #2 and none of them were interested in doing anything new.

I wouldn't blame the designers. A company has to have a budget for experimenting on stuff that might not have a return on that investment. If Stern allocated Zero to that  (either by choice or by economic forces), then those guys won't be able to experiment (unless they do it on their own time and dollars). The same thing happens in the video game industry. All the creative people keep whining about wanting to make new types of games, but upper management wants what's is already proven to sell.

[Xiaou2]

There's going to be a lot of finger pointing over the next few months.  I think Gary was dealing with economic realities that the designers/coders/general public weren't privy to.

Steve didn't help matters any with World Poker Tour, either.  Worst game that company ever produced, bar none.

I got a laugh over 700 sales of Family Guy!  After 'Rare Hero' has been whoring his involvement in that game for 2 years on a daily basis on RGP.  Must have been a much needed slap in the face for him, though I'm sure it's now a "Cactus Canyon" level collectible in his mind.

 ---smurf-poo---.   Stern was a Moron who thought he knew better than the experts.
He's totally in Love with himself, and his Ego is the size of his factory.

 Its also clear that he does not care about the people who love and play pinball.
He only cares about dollars and ego.


 As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 


 Most people know that they are only good at some things... and smartly stay
within that realm.   For example... I am a decent artist... but,  I couldnt play
anything worthwhile on a musical instrument... so wouldnt dare to tell
a Top musician how to compose a song!

   Stern thought he could tell the Musicians what to play... and then tell them to take criticisms from every other self appointed expert out on the factory floor.   

 Imagine telling Eddy Van Halan that he has to make an Album for World Poker...
and then,  Imagine the look on his face when you tell him that every employee
is going to come and tell him how to make those tracks better!

 Then, Give Eddy a Shoddy guitar, and poor quality recording equipment, 
an insanely low budget for equipment and studio time... and almost no time to
get the stuff made at all...

 And then when Eddys fans pipe up... and say how crappy things are... 
The boss tells Eddy to shut his piehole and "F" the fans.   They are selling
records to the music shops...  NOT the fans!

 
 You really think Eddy will be Psyched to make a WPT themed record?!  You
think that enthusiasm will be enough to get him to make the best WPT
music ever?!   Get real.   People with true talent arnt going to waste it on
WPT crap!  If they stick around.. its only cause they are working for an easy paycheck..
much like older actors who do TV ads & infomercials.   I dont blame them one
bit.   

 If they were given a good budget, a great choice of theme..  and ability to
produce a machine that was of quality...  and THEN made a flop... THEN I would
blame them.   Until that time... (which will Never come),  the blame is All on
Stern himself.


   

[shardian]

 As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 

Do you even realize how many poker based pins have been made? It is a proven winner theme in pinball. It just didn't translate well to the DMD era.

[FrizzleFried]

As for WPT,  WHat the Hell do you expect?   The very concept of a game centered
around Poker doesnt stand much chance at being anything but Crap. 

Uh,   you've got to be kidding,  right?  Do you really know anything about pinball history?

[FrizzleFried]

The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...

[shardian]

The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...

And apparently you have Gary Stern to thank for that if you read Steve Ritchie's rant.

[koolmoecraig]

The reason Family Guy blows:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103666

[koolmoecraig]

You mean the manatees.

[RayB]

[studmuff]

The problem with Family Guy from my opinion is that the damn thing pretty much played itself.  What i mean is that it is SUPER EASY.  I've played a grand total of 1 game on a Family Guy...at the airport...I put my quarters in and played for 15 minutes...my flight was called so I walked away from the game...

I agree with you that Family Guy is Easy, but Stern has to put some easy games out there or no one will touch them after one play. 

I have never played it but the Stern Indiana Jones looks terrible.  The ark 8-ball multiball sounds cool but there aren't a lot of shots to shoot for in the game.  Seems like it would get old pretty quick.

[Xiaou2]

Stern has to put some easy games out there or no one will touch them

  That simply is not true.

 Something difficult challenges people, and they wish to put money in further
to try to get somewhere with it.

 One big reasons that Arcades Died,  was because they Dumbed down
games to the point of Idiocy level.   Cars couldnt crash...etc.    People play once,
get board as hell... and never play again... as there is No satisfaction gained at all.

 
 The people who give up so easily on a challenge.. are the ones who arnt going
to spend much playing games in the first place.

 
 As a young kid in the 80s arcades... I was surrounded by challenging games.  I got
Crushed by most games in seconds.  Yet, I still enjoyed them.   Over many plays, I got
a little better.  As I got years older... I got even better and lasted much much longer.
Still challenged by the games,  and still enjoying the challenge.

 Once games became easy mindless  'Movies',  I stopped playing... and so did most
others.


 If Stern was aiming at getting children into pinball... they would have to make the
pins shorter and change the way the game plays.  A slower moving game like the
old EM pins.. with either a set gameplay time and or a change in flipper distances.
However.. if they did this.. it would alienate teen and adult players.

 
 Also,  Family Guy is NOT a Kid theme.  Making that game easy - centered on
capturing childrens interest is in very poor taste.

 The only reason I watched that show at all.. was if NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING,
was on TV that night.  And even then... I would often turn it off.  The show isnt very
good. Its like a combination of cynical negativity and kiddie self help. Its pathetic,
and unethical in that it tries to play to younger kids.

 
 Pinball was fine the way it was.  The failure was an issue of Durability.  Too
much maintenance needed: Broken assemblies = non functional gameplay =
no more repeat business. 

[koolmoecraig]

Well putting easy games out there is EXACTLY what Stern was aiming for.   He hit the target for sure.

Go read Steve Ritchies rant on the newgroups.

[RayB]

I tend to believe the complaints leveled here... (Too easy, All the features getting shown off too soon, mish mash of sound bites in FG...).

A game in any form is best balanced to be easy to pick up, but challenging to get further in. And you need rewards for players to continue working towards. I know if I feel I've "seen everything" in just a couple plays, well the incentive to keep playing is much lower. ALL that's left is striving for higher score.

[ChadTower]

...which pretty much describes a classic vid.  Simple to learn, progressively gets harder, a ---smurfette--- to master.

[ChadTower]

...which pretty much describes a classic vid.  Simple to learn, progressively gets harder, a ---smurf--- to master.

This describes about 10 classic vids.  For every Pac-Man, there's 100 pieces of Zarzon shovelware crap.

Those aren't classics.  Those are just old.   

[Karetaker]

For as well as SWEP1 and RFM did, don't forget they were outsold by South Park.

Meh... Ops afraid of the new concept.  Tons of potential for new directions that South Park could never have had.  I'm hoping the NuCore guys will open things up a bit so homebrew minigames become possible.

Ops are NEVER afraid of a new concept. It really comes down to if the earnings potential justifies the cost of a machine. RFM sold quite well and Williams finally saw a profit in the pinball division that had not been seen in years. Those sales were ALL driven by Operators. That hardly sounds like a group "afraid of the new concept". Ops love kits! So, the idea of a pinball kit was very welcomed. One thing that was hard for Operators to get past was the whole "What in the Hell do I do with the playfield"? SWE1 just seemed doomed from the start. Poor timing, poor planning, the movie underpreforming, whatever the cause it just didn't earn. Next thing you know Williams pulled the plug. A bit premature IMO.

[Xiaou2]

 The problem with Episode1 was the fact that the video took up valuable playfield
space for 'interesting' and fun shots.   Everything became too simplified and boring.

 Putting video in the backbox would have been the best option... as then it wouldnt
have affected the gameplay... only adding to it.

 The idea probably was to try to make the game easier for ops to maintain...
yet, play counts were low... cause pinball fans really didnt like the
generic, easy, boring,  shots. 

 The lame movie didnt help any... but that really wasnt the big issue.

 The added time and cost to try to produce quality video animations, only made things worse.

[ChadTower]

Ops are NEVER afraid of a new concept. It really comes down to if the earnings potential justifies the cost of a machine. RFM sold quite well and Williams finally saw a profit in the pinball division that had not been seen in years. Those sales were ALL driven by Operators. That hardly sounds like a group "afraid of the new concept". Ops love kits! So, the idea of a pinball kit was very welcomed. One thing that was hard for Operators to get past was the whole "What in the Hell do I do with the playfield"? SWE1 just seemed doomed from the start. Poor timing, poor planning, the movie underpreforming, whatever the cause it just didn't earn. Next thing you know Williams pulled the plug. A bit premature IMO.

You can say that but all of the ops I've asked gave me the same story.  "pinball wasn't earning anymore and I wasn't dropping $4500 on a new concept until I see it making some cash.  I replaced them with touchscreens and got into wall jukes instead."

[Mauzy]

Ops are NEVER afraid of a new concept. It really comes down to if the earnings potential justifies the cost of a machine. RFM sold quite well and Williams finally saw a profit in the pinball division that had not been seen in years. Those sales were ALL driven by Operators. That hardly sounds like a group "afraid of the new concept". Ops love kits! So, the idea of a pinball kit was very welcomed. One thing that was hard for Operators to get past was the whole "What in the Hell do I do with the playfield"? SWE1 just seemed doomed from the start. Poor timing, poor planning, the movie underpreforming, whatever the cause it just didn't earn. Next thing you know Williams pulled the plug. A bit premature IMO.

You can say that but all of the ops I've asked gave me the same story.  "pinball wasn't earning anymore and I wasn't dropping $4500 on a new concept until I see it making some cash.  I replaced them with touchscreens and got into wall jukes instead."

Thats exactly what the Op here said. They bought one SWE1 machine, "just to see", it crashed after a month and barely making enough to pay for the electricity. They sold it, got their money back, and never bought another. They now buy one crappy Stern machine a year and primarily run jukes and ATM machines with the occasional 8 liner or Golden Tee.   

Ops will try a new concept, but they won't purposely screw themselves over by doing it again.

[Karetaker]

Ops are NEVER afraid of a new concept. It really comes down to if the earnings potential justifies the cost of a machine. RFM sold quite well and Williams finally saw a profit in the pinball division that had not been seen in years. Those sales were ALL driven by Operators. That hardly sounds like a group "afraid of the new concept". Ops love kits! So, the idea of a pinball kit was very welcomed. One thing that was hard for Operators to get past was the whole "What in the Hell do I do with the playfield"? SWE1 just seemed doomed from the start. Poor timing, poor planning, the movie underpreforming, whatever the cause it just didn't earn. Next thing you know Williams pulled the plug. A bit premature IMO.

You can say that but all of the ops I've asked gave me the same story.  "pinball wasn't earning anymore and I wasn't dropping $4500 on a new concept until I see it making some cash.  I replaced them with touchscreens and got into wall jukes instead."

Yeah what I said on page 2 of this post was "Operators don't want to buy them anymore because they don't make money".  But, the production of RFM ran a bit over 7,000. In 1999 that was a huge number for pinball production. So, operators were buying them. If the operators you talked to were waiting until 1999 to get into touchscreens they were WELL behind the curve! There were touchscreens out before Merit made the first Megatouch. Anyone who had one on the street already knew these things made money.

$4,500 is a lot of money for a pinball machine. But, it's not really a lot for a machine per say in this business. What the SWE1 kits ended up costing I couldn't say. When I talked to a distributor about them when RFM came out I was told the kit would be around $1,800. So, I figure they would end up costing between $2,000-$2,500 for a kit. Now that's pretty cheap to get you into a new pinball machine. But, again it's only cheap if you can get your money out of it. I truly loved the idea and the concept behind the whole thing. A big pat on the back to the Williams pinball division for the effort. I will never understand why they simply didn't sell the pinball division off to the highest bidder instead of closing the doors. Although I love the idea it still has to make a business money at the end of the day. In today's environment an operator doesn't see his money out of a pinball machine until he sells it into the home market. That's the reality. Shame it has come to that. But, RFM did sell, and it sold quite well for 1999.