Who's a leaf button expert ? Wico / Vs. Knockoff one seems to sit lower ? PICS

[mrclean]

Both Bob Roberts and Lizardlick sent me wrong blue knock off's? or inferior buttons that don't match my red / white ones on my panel. Lizard lick sent me one correct blue one which the blue seems slightly lighter in color and sits the same height as my red / white ones. Lizard lick claims to be selling WICO buttons, they sent me two different ones which is the knock off ? I'd imagine the one that sits lower (on the left in the pics) is the knock off because it also to me feels like crap.

The one on the left sits to low when on the panel and doesnt have the same feel as the other buttons on my panel.. the one on the right seems to be the same height and slightly lighter in color.
[
Another view :

The one on the left that doesn't match the rest of my panel also seems to have a stubby extra piece of plastic on the bottom.

it's deceiving because that nub gives it false height but when installed it sits way lower.

[Level42]

I hate getting all those pop-ups from Imageshack, while you can just as easily upload the pics directly on the forum !


Anyway, damn........The Chinese are doing it again !

[mrclean]

I hate getting all those pop-ups from Imageshack, while you can just as easily upload the pics directly on the forum !

.. fixed.

the one's on the left suck so badly.. I wonder if lizard lick  / and bob roberts even realize they are dishing these out. The ones on the height are about the same size that pop up as happ microswitches, which i happen to like on my MAME cab, but for the dedicated / originals the ones on the right are where it's at.

[RayB]

What's the problem exactly? If you're going to go for new buttons, replace them all, and then none will "feel different". Wico went out of business a good 5 years ago and stopped manufacturing parts a good 15 to 18 years ago. You're not going to get "new" Wico buttons unless you hunt for NOS.

[mrclean]

What's the problem exactly? If you're going to go for new buttons, replace them all, and then none will "feel different". Wico went out of business a good 5 years ago and stopped manufacturing parts a good 15 to 18 years ago. You're not going to get "new" Wico buttons unless you hunt for NOS.

The problem is I did replace them all, but both bob and lizard lick sent me buttons that didn't match... lizardlick is supposidly going to hunt down the correct button that they originally sent me so cosmetically and game play it will be equal

[Xiaou2]

 Personally, I would think that the new version is superior.

 The old leaf buttons had a throw that was way too long.

 By adjusting your leafs so that they sit right on the bottom
of the plunger... and making both leafs a hair apart... I would think the
performance would be a great improvement.


 The only other difference to effect feel would be the internal spring.
You could change the resistance by cutting part of it off.. or stretching it
out a bit more... depending on preference.     Or replace with a thinner
or thicker gage spring.

[mrclean]

also the one on the left seems to get caught / or sticks every so often when it internally hits a plastic piece in a certain way. So if they didn't do that I can see how sitting lower would make it more of a performance thing , however the feel of the other ones to me are alot more solid and those are what i remember being in the arcade.

[Level42]

Personally, I would think that the new version is superior.

 The old leaf buttons had a throw that was way too long.

 By adjusting your leafs so that they sit right on the bottom
of the plunger... and making both leafs a hair apart... I would think the
performance would be a great improvement.


 The only other difference to effect feel would be the internal spring.
You could change the resistance by cutting part of it off.. or stretching it
out a bit more... depending on preference.     Or replace with a thinner
or thicker gage spring.

Xiauo, does your computer add that irritating space before each line automatically or is it a natural habit of you ?

Anyway, I agree about the longer throw. I also always wondered about some leaf-buttons sticking out higher than others, but when I worked on my Galaxian I discovered the trick:
there were 2 e-clips that kept the button "pushed down" a bit. This makes the throw a lot shorter and much more pleasant to play (i.e. quicker firing). I've since copied this technique on a number of buttons and I really like it.

[Xiaou2]

 Accidental spacing maybe.   Tho sometimes Ive been known to add a space for better
visibility.   Depending on your font size, and resolution, I guess I can see it being
a little annoying...  but I think its more or less an OCD  type moment   

 As for Leaf height Mr. Clean... the shorter the travel,  the faster you can fire.
A leaf can be made to be on a hair trigger.  A very light touch could trigger it... however,
if you press past the activation because the button throw is too long... then you are
wasting time.   The button could have been on its way back up instead.

 If your button is sticking... you may want to check the internal piece.  Its probably
the seam from the injection molding.   Simply sand it down smooth, and it should be
good to go.

 Id like to try one of these buttons.  Maybe I can find one of my used leafs
and trade you for it

[Level42]

IMHO it's not OK that you need to sand anything on a new part you just bought. If there's seams from the molding it's lousy production quality.

[mrclean]

thank you level42 couldn't agree with you more !

[Xiaou2]

 
Did I say it was Ok?    I gave a SOLUTION.
 
 And BTW,  you can find defects like this in many products,  INCLUDING from
top name brand equipment.

 All I  can say is that you may be lucky to have someone producing leaf
buttons at all.   Who would invest in an old technology that
is for an obscure hobby?

 The Arcade days are just about dead.  Manufacturers of arcade equipment
probably wont be around much longer.
 
 Its far better to have to lightly sand your button... than not being able to get
a new arcade button at all.

[Level42]

The Arcade days are just about dead.  Manufacturers of arcade equipment
probably wont be around much longer.
 
Its far better to have to lightly sand your button... than not being able to get
a new arcade button at all.

Mmmm, weird, when I say the same thing about pinball machines you seem to have a lot different look at things.....

[Xiaou2]

 Fixing a $2 button is nothing compared to a $4000 pile of crap.

[Ummon]

Buttons or joysticks, it's not an easy thing to get a sharp coincidence between actuation and restriction. It's just not in any design I've seen, for either.

[mrclean]

Well Lizard lick 3rd times a charm sent me the correct button that I wanted and the panel looks great! with parts mixed with Ginsu Victim's stash(wico parts, bob roberts (nos leafs / buttons), mame marquees(cpo), lizard lick (hacked up chinese wico knock off to use parts for my real wico, blue buttons), ebay(nos sticker set), ace hardware (plexi) It came out nicely!

[Kevin Mullins]

Looks good !!   

Did you get your adapter back yet?

[mrclean]

Indeed I did get the adaptor back from Tim over at jammaboards and he was very nice enough to take the time to properly sodder the correct jumper wires and it did indeed fix the problem, so in the future should anyone else decide to have a Gun.Smoke PCB and they are going to use a JAMMA adaptor for it just make sure you "jump" the proper wires see attached photo's :

[Kevin Mullins]

Cool ... so you should be up and running now then.   

[mrclean]

Yep I'm up and running  and just need to replace my light bulbs that i foolishly blew  not thinking about the voltage and just need to wire up my power from my monitor to the inside of the cab.. other wise it's playable! Those other issues are just minor temporary annoyances that obviously don't effect game play but i'd like to fix them asap. I also bought and already got in the mail a Mr. Do to PCB adaptor, so i have both PCB's inside the cab so if i want to swap between the two its very easy. I actually didn't even know if that mr. do pcb was going to work but sure enough after getting that other adaptor for that universal game it fired right up. And good chance that on the other side of the cab i'll probably end up putting in a 60 in 1 board and buy a JAMMA Harness extender and then i'm going to be done for a while.  I need to attempt & then break the world record which was the whole reason I got this project in the first place.

[Kevin Mullins]

You oughta throw a pic up of the complete cabinet.

[mrclean]

You oughta throw a pic up of the complete cabinet.

Once the lights are fixed ;-)


*Oh yeah as a side note with Mr. Do (i may start a new thread) but the screen seems a tad stretched / pulled vertically. I don't want to mess with the happ monitor settings beacause it's perfect for Gun.Smoke, so if any one is familiar with Mr. Do is there a way to do this from the settings / test screen? or is this something that strictly needs to be done on my monitor? It's not imperitive and minor colors seem slightly darker i'm not sure if this is normal they just aren't as bright as Gun.Smoke colors.. I know one's from 1982 and one's from 1985 two totally different games but just seems dark on the Mr. Do maybe this is normal ? Post pics in 8-10 hrs or potentially start a new thread, i'm way off topic from these leaf's.

[mrclean]

alright you pulled my arm... here are some shots that you might dig: the coolest "accidental photo" that I took was you can see my flash in the monitor and it just so happens to look like sherif's badge from the flash weird right? also in that same photo is a cubee to the right on my shelf i modified it to look like a mini gun.smoke machine 

[Kevin Mullins]

*Oh yeah as a side note with Mr. Do (i may start a new thread) but the screen seems a tad stretched / pulled vertically. I don't want to mess with the happ monitor settings beacause it's perfect for Gun.Smoke, so if any one is familiar with Mr. Do is there a way to do this from the settings / test screen? or is this something that strictly needs to be done on my monitor?

It's VERY common to have to physically adjust the monitor itself when changing game boards. If it's only minor.... I'd leave it alone to suit Gunsmoke since that is the main game to go along with the cabinet.

Good looking machine btw. 

It's nice to see a well done and clean conversion like that.

[boardjunkie]

Sorry to necro this post, but just for reference....the "short travel" button is *not* supposed to have the e-clip on it. Those are the snap together buttons which do have a shorter travel, but I find them perfect. The old Wico style buttons had too much travel for me.

So if anyone gets these buttons with the clip installed, just pull it off...then it will function as intended. And...I don't think they are of Chinese origin, but the clip is puzzling...so maybe. I bought a couple hundred from an ebay seller in the Chicago area a while back, and they are the exact ones as used by Midway after they quit using the "space invaders" types with the washers to limit travel. No e-clip either.

Just FYI.

[Xiaou2]

This post was made before I knew the real genius of Leaf buttons / Switches.

 Turns out that the longer travel is a good thing.  The switch makes contact long before the button bottoms out.  This allows you to rapidly press the button lightly, without it ever clashing to a hard stop. 

 This light 'feathery' style of button pressing, allows you less fatigue, and faster repeat shots.

 However, if you dont realize this, and press the button to its full depth... it will be slow, cumbersome, and much more fatiguing.

[Gray_Area]

This post was made before I knew the real genius of Leaf buttons / Switches.

 Turns out that the longer travel is a good thing.  The switch makes contact long before the button bottoms out.  This allows you to rapidly press the button lightly, without it ever clashing to a hard stop. 

 This light 'feathery' style of button pressing, allows you less fatigue, and faster repeat shots.

 However, if you dont realize this, and press the button to its full depth... it will be slow, cumbersome, and much more fatiguing.

There just needs to be a second spring, that is engaged at about 2/3 travel, that restricts the button from hard-stopping.

[Xiaou2]

There just needs to be a second spring, that is engaged at about 2/3 travel, that restricts the button from hard-stopping.

 That IS exactly what a Leaf Switch IS.

 The first leaf bends, and makes contact with the 2nd leaf... which activates the switch... and then the 2nd leaf starts to bend.  Each leaf IS a spring.

 The thing is, if springs are too loose, and or there isnt enough travel.. you can force a button bottom-out easily.   And of the springs are too stiff... you would have a hard time pressing the buttons... and Fatigue too quickly.   If you make one soft, and one harder.. then you got a better shot at it.. but even so.. the point here is that you Dont have to tap the full stroke.  You do a light partial tap, which is equivalent to bouncing on a diving springboard.. or...  a trampoline.

 On a Trampoline, you dont want to bottom out.  That would kill your ankles / feet.  Especially if you only needed to bounce a small amount to get the desired effect.

 With a Micro, not-bottoming out is impossible... because the switch is activated at a certain point, and bottoms the switch out immediately and with little travel at all.  The only thing that Might be possible, would be mounting the micros on a spring base.  But even then, it still wouldnt be as good as a standard leaf.

[boardjunkie]

I don't like them set like that. I don't want the added tension of stiffer leaf switches....which is why I use pinball slingshot kicker switches for my buttons. They are light and consistant. So even with the shorter travel buttons I prefer, I don't find myself bottoming out the buttons very often. Not that its hard to do that, but the "feathering" technique still applies.....just requires a lighter touch. I also mount the switch back a little so the leaves don't have to flex as far to get contact closure.

I never did like the feel of longer buttons that seemed to get stiff halfway thru the travel....wasn't my thing even as far back as 79 when Asteroids hit the streets. Always felt strange to me. Space Invaders (Midway version) had nice buttons, just a touch too stiff (for me).