WG K7000 series (now Wei-Ya 826HR) - replaced width adjustment cap, issues...

[Pac-Fan]

Nah - I'm breaking out the heavy artillery next time.  I had already bought a super-insulated *BIG* screwdriver, and had copper tied to the ground on my nearest power outlet.  Next time I'm bringing in my jumper cables from the truck, clamping one end to the screwdriver, and the other to my water pipes.

That's why you got shocked. You didn't discharge correctly.  Earth ground/your power outlet/a water pipe has nothing to do with discharging a capacitor/picture tube.

All you need is a basic long insulated screwdriver with medium gauge wire clipped to the screwdriver and to the aquadag strap. No artillery needed.

[grantspain]

connecting this chassis to a pc is a sure fire way to kill it

how have you connected the rgb wires and do you get a white screen if you turn the screen volts up a little

[Kevin Mullins]

And a bad JAMMA input (RGB) should have nothing to do with "neck glow".
Sounds more like it just didn't turn on.

Did you pull the monitor back out of the cabinet to test it with the pc?

[Numbski]

No.  In fact, my Jamma wiring hasn't changed in this cabinet, ever.  It's the same wiring that was there when I bought it.  The neck didn't glow because it had no video signal.  I hooked up a PC with an ArcadeVGA card, and I got a nice, clear picture.  It's just the lack of Jamma that is the problem.

So far as earth not having anything to do with discharge, now you've just got me confused.  If my screwdriver being grounded to my nearest outlet isn't grounding the screwdriver, but clipping the wire to the cabinet which is in turn not connected to earth in any way *is*, that just doesn't make any kind of sense at all.  Sorry. :\

[Kevin Mullins]

The auqadag wire IS earth grounded...... if the machine is plugged in.

Discharging a monitor is the same as discharging a capacitor. (a really big one)
Which needs discharged between it's positive and negative sides.
In this case the tube is the positive side and any ground within the cabinet is negative.

So if your machine is unplugged from the wall and you discharged your monitor between the tube and an outlet "ground"..... then it probably didn't do much for it.

So basically it is simpler and safer just to say:

Unplug your machine.
Attach one end of your discharge tool to the auquadag strap. (since it's right there)
Then slip the other end up underneath the anode cup. (suction cup on the tube)

As far as neck glow...... that is actually heater glow, which typically is on as soon as you turn the monitor on whether you even have a video signal hooked up to it or not.
So it sounds odd when reading your description of events.
"Glow with PC hooked up, but no glow with JAMMA hooked up"
Should glow with nothing hooked up.
Unplug your video input (jamma) and turn the SCREEN voltage on the flyback up a bit.... screen should go white.

Correct me if I am mis-leading anywhere with this stuff guys.

[Numbski]

Please don't mistake my frustration as being an ingrate.  My frustration is running VERY high though.

Give me a few mins, and I'll turn that screen voltage up some.

[Kevin Mullins]

Oh we all understand the frustration I'm sure .... we've all been there at some point for sure.
Just gotta cover your understanding of the basics as much as possible, saves alot of headache sometimes.

[Numbski]

Alright, "in a bit" quickly turned into "in the morning".  Yes, if I turn up the screen pot, the screen turns white.

[grantspain]

white screen=no video input or blanking fault
unlikely blanking fault,either you have a plug off,video connected up wrong or your jamma video output is not working due to board fault or power supply

[Pac-Fan]

The auqadag wire IS earth grounded...... if the machine is plugged in.

Actually that is not correct either a lot of the time. Many times the monitor is completely isolated from any earth ground. (Because the last op converted it by cutting the ground strap to the frame, etc.) You cannot assume it is. Safest to assume not.

--> Your instructions however are spot on -- Anode to Aquadag is the ONLY way you can be sure you discharge completely and correctly. <--

In this case the tube is the positive side and any ground within the cabinet is negative.

Not quite correct. The inside of the tube (connected to the anode wire) is the positive, the outside of the tube, connected to the aquadag strap is the negative.

Assuming anything else beyond that (that the frame touches the aquadag strap, or the frame is grounded to a ground strap, or somehow connected to earth ground) is where people go wrong.


To the original poster: As Kevin said.. it's a capacitor.  Think a battery.  How does a flashlight deplete the charge in the battery? It discharges the battery by connecting a filament between + and - (and the filament happens to also produce light and heat).  You don't connect a flashlight to your water pipe to discharge it or make it glow.

Same principals apply to discharging a capacitor and picture tube.

Hope that helps.

[Numbski]

That helps a ton, actually.  I hadn't even thought about that fact.  The battery example is what lit up the bulb in my head.  d'oh.

You can't take two wires, and a battery, connect both ends to the ground (literally, like go outside and connect them to the ground) and expect the battery to discharge.  Too much impedence (I think???), but it *will* discharge if you directly close the circuit.

This is why I don't work in electronics for a living.

This doesn't, however, solve the issue of what's wrong with my Jamma wiring.  My boards are either all fine or have all gone bad together.  It's not just one.  I tend to believe something is hosed with the wiring.  I've traced out 5v and 12v, and R, G, B, S.  They all seem to be okay so far.

[Numbski]

So.  I got the original K7000 chassis back after being "fixed".  For the second time.

Since I know my Jamma loom has issues, and arcadevga works okay, I swapped chassis, hooked up my arcadevga, and was greeted to the picture below.

I tried adjusting screen pot on the flyback, h-hold and v-hold,along with brightness and contrast.  No picture though.

[Ken Layton]

Appears you're not getting a video signal.

[Numbski]

I'll continuity test my video lines when I get home.  Might as well test the video harness going to the chassis while I'm at it.

You can't see it from that picture, but it's pretty badly pincushioned too.

[Kevin Mullins]

How do you have the video SYNC lines connected?
Are you using a breakout cable from the ArcadeVGA?
Is it wired correctly?

As Ken said, it just doesn't appear to have a video signal at all.
(colors maybe, but no sync)

[Numbski]

I'll check when I get home, but it did work using the Wei-Ya chassis and the same arcadevga card.  If I recall, the connector on the K7000 goes R,G,B,Ground, (emptyx3-4), H-Sync AND V-Sync on one line.  Just from memory though.

That said, I *have* been cleaning up my Jamma harness trying to figure out why I get no video from those boards.  I suppose it's possible that I knocked the sync line loose from my ArcadeVGA breakout board.  I will double check as soon as I get home.  Have no idea what to do if I get video and the pincushioning remains.

[Numbski]

I'm home now.  I just tested continuity on all 5 lines coming off of the ArcadeVGA breakout board.  They're all good, R, G, B, Ground, and Sync.  I checked from the breakout board to the connector, and then all the way to the conductor traces on the chassis.  There's definitely line for signal.     

[Numbski]

Oookay, out of desperation, I hooked my SF2 board back up, and well - take a look:

It's worth noting that after all of this trouble - the picture is *STILL* too freaking narrow.  I don't know what it takes to get the geometry right.

[Numbski]

There's still got to be something up with the sync on this.  I just hooked up my PC, I get video, but I keeps wanting to roll top to bottom, like something is up with the horizontal output stage. (look at me talking like I have half a clue)

[grantspain]

this is one of the most confused posts i have ever seen,i cannot work out if you have a wei ya or wells chassis on your tube anymore

do you still have a resistor across your yoke?

the last pics show incorrect sync signal and too high brightness

rolling from top to bottom indicates missing vert sync

[Numbski]

Sorry for the confusion.

1.  I have 2 tubes now.  The 25" in my cabinet, and now a 27" that I converted.

2.  On the recommendation of Ken, I ordered a Wei-Ya.  It either came bad, or I damaged it, so I sent it back.

3.  While all of this was going on, I took my K7000 chassis back to the guy that "repaired" it the first time.

4. The Wei-Ya chassis comes back, so I install that back into my arcade cabinet.  ArcadeVGA appears to work, but the Jamma harness produces no video.  I begin sorting through my Jamma harness, putting various bits of wire through nylon split-loom ( http://cableorganizer.com/f6-wrap-around/ ), like all of the video lines, all of the player 1 lines, etc.

5.  I get a call from the guy with my K7000 chassis that it's ready to go.

6.  I swapped the chassis' out of my cabinet, putting the original K7000 chassis back in, which also required me to swap the video input connector harness (thus raising questions about my sync and my wiring).

So there you have it.  I have the Wei-Ya chassis sitting here, and the K7000 series monitor is "whole" again.  Sorta.

After reading your post, yeah - I remember from all of the videos I've been watching that it's vertical sync, not horizontal sync that is missing.  The thing that's confusing about that is that I've always used composite sync on this monitor.  At least so far as I'm aware.  The K7000 manual mentions having them split, but even when I bought the monitor, they were both run on the same line, and later on when I visited these boards I was told that was correct, so - WTF.  The Jamma harness has only one sync line, and I have continuity from the board to the chassis - so once again we're back to a damaged chassis?

It's worth noting that the dimmer a screen is, the more stable the picture is, which is why the last picture looks okay.  There's not much brightness to it, or "flash".  The "Street Fighter II' Hyper Fighting" Screen where "Hyper Fighting" flashes jumps around pretty badly, and of course in-game is crazy.  I took all of those pictures in succession in demo mode, no adjustments in-between.

Anyhoo - as far as I'm aware I can put the Wei-Ya back in and be done.  I guess I got greedy and hoped maybe the original K7000 chassis could be salvaged, and I could use the Wei-Ya on the 27" tube seperately.  There's no plausible way I can get that 27" tube into my cabinet without some serious hacking, and I think I'd rather build a new, smaller cabinet (candy-style) or buy a smaller cabinet and install that tube in it rather than try to shoe-horn a 27" in there.  I think this is a Dynamo cab? (the original TMNT 4 Player cabs, non-converted) - so unless there's a guide on doing that, I'm not sure I'll be trying it.

[Kevin Mullins]

this is one of the most confused posts i have ever seen,i cannot work out if you have a wei ya or wells chassis on your tube anymore

  I was just thinking the same thing......

First off, let's stick with ONE chassis, ONE tube and ONE wiring setup.
Stick with the 25" tube and the K7000 chassis and the AracadeVGA for now.

You've mentioned an ArcadeVGA "breakout board".
What is that?
Typically if using an ArcadeVGA your monitor wiring goes straight from the video card directly to the monitor, nothing in between. (plugged in just like a pc monitor)
There should be TWO sync lines coming from the video card, 13 and 14 I believe, that need combined creating the composite sync (single wire) at the other end.
So you should have 7 wires coming from the PC with two of them joined together making 6 wires at the monitor end. (composite sync)

I'm also unclear as to why you keep referring to the JAMMA harness wiring.
But I guess that's dependent on what that "breakout board" is.
Do you have video going from the ArcadeVGA to this breakout board which then plugs into the jamma harness or something? (like an I-Pac or J-Pac or something?)

Now the question goes back to exactly how and WHERE do you have the video wiring connected to the monitor itself? (which pins on the K7000)

Ignore the dimness of the picture until you get a solid and stable picture consistantly.
 

[Numbski]

Let's give you some pictures then.

Picture 1 is a picture of the VGA cable that runs to the ArcadeVGA, and the ArcadeVGA breakout board.

Picture 2 is the barrier strip I use as a "splitter" between the cabinet's monitor and speakers, and my various inputs until I buy a MultiJamma Proper.  If it's not legible, it's labelled "Cabinet Side" on top, and "Game Side" on bottom, the strip inputs are labeled "R,G,B,S,L,R"  The top side R,G,B,S are tied to my video input harness running to the K7000.  L and R currently are not hooked up.  On the bottom, I have my Jamma Harness' R,G,B, and S lines hooked up, and then the ArcadeVGA breakout board is also hooked up on bottom.

Picture 3 is my video signal harness hooked to my chassis.

Picture 4 is a shot of my Jamma harness with everything else.

Clear things up a little?  I just have to be careful not to have a Jamma Board hooked up while a PC is booted up.  I'm VERY careful in this regard, and intend to get a proper MultiJamma "real soon", like after I have known good video.

[grantspain]

interesting to note that video ground is not the same as your psu/jamma ground

[Numbski]

interesting to note that video ground is not the same as your psu/jamma ground

THAT is very interesting to note.  This thread has opened my eyes that ground != ground.  It never even occurred to me!  Crap.  How many "grounds" do I have in a cabinet?  Video ground, audio ground, 5v ground, 12 v ground, switch grounds...?

[Numbski]

I just walked over there and sure enough I've tied all of my grounds together.  I think I've got them split, but it had no impact on the picture.  Here's the grounds as I see them:

1.  AC/Wall outlet ground
2.  Ground coming from the PSU
3.  Video Ground
4.  Audio Ground
5.  Jamma/Switches ground

Which ones go together, if any?  Don't all of them eventually have to tie back to #1?

[grantspain]

how it should work is as follows.
ac EARTH(not ground) should go to metal frame work(such as coin door,cp) and the psu earth terminal only
video ground to video ground monitor input plug pin only
psu ground to jamma 1,2(a,b) and 27,28(ae,af)---switches---coin door
audio ground to speakers only

[Numbski]

Oookay, before you answered I actually got the picture stable.  Here's what I have:

The metal frame for the monitor is "video ground".  Tied to it are the video ground plug for the monitor,  the video ground line for the video signal, and the matching video ground for both my Jamma harness and the ArcadeVGA breakout board.  If I see what you said above properly, I'm mostly right, except that the frame for the monitor should actually be AC's "Earth", not video ground.  Right?

Sound is working properly, but I'll double-check that's correct too.  The only problems left then are that I have a weird top-to-bottom artifacting line on the left-side of the picture (not overlap though), and then of course as always, the picture is *still* too narrow.  I can fix that by changing the width adjustment cap, but it seems like that's not the right way...

[Numbski]

CRAP.  It's exactly the same as before I sent it out.  The geometry is hosed - the sides are narrower than the middle!

[grantspain]

which chassis,the wells?
anyway video ground should not go to the frame unless you want to blow the crap out of your game boards

[Kevin Mullins]

VIDEO GROUND SHOULD ONLY BE COMING FROM THE VGA CARD.... period.
It should not be tied to anything except VIDEO stuff.
There is a specific pin on the JAMMA harness for video ground, a specific pin on the video card for video ground and a specific pin on the monitor for video ground.
No "metal" stuff"... no frames .. no power lines ... etc.

And like grantspain mentioned...... separate those grounds.
Especially the video ground.
On your terminal strip where all your video stuff is connected you should have:
R, G, B, S, G .....with that ground being totally seperate from any other type of ground.

So is your ArcadeVGA "breakout board" actually the video amp from Ultimarc?
http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html
Is it getting the required +5v supply from the video card? (pin 9 on the vga connector)

I've messed with one of those video amps on a project once and it just flat didn't work.
So you could very well have a bum amp.
I suggest trying to wire it up without one to first figure out where your problem is.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83104.0

Which version of the ArcadeVGA do you have?
(you really shouldn't need an amp with it)

[Numbski]

which chassis,the wells?
anyway video ground should not go to the frame unless you want to blow the crap out of your game boards

Yes, the Wells.  I'll make sure the frame is tied to AC earth and seperate the video ground from it.

[Numbski]

VIDEO GROUND SHOULD ONLY BE COMING FROM THE VGA CARD.... period.
It should not be tied to anything except VIDEO stuff.
There is a specific pin on the JAMMA harness for video ground, a specific pin on the video card for video ground and a specific pin on the monitor for video ground.
No "metal" stuff"... no frames .. no power lines ... etc.

And like grantspain mentioned...... separate those grounds.
Especially the video ground.
On your terminal strip where all your video stuff is connected you should have:
R, G, B, S, G .....with that ground being totally seperate from any other type of ground.

Understood, and fixing it as we speak.

So is your ArcadeVGA "breakout board" actually the video amp from Ultimarc?
http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html
Is it getting the required +5v supply from the video card? (pin 9 on the vga connector)

I've messed with one of those video amps on a project once and it just flat didn't work.
So you could very well have a bum amp.
I suggest trying to wire it up without one to first figure out where your problem is.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83104.0

Which version of the ArcadeVGA do you have?
(you really shouldn't need an amp with it)

It's an older revision AGP.  I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but the images I'm posting are actually coming from my SFII Hyper Fighting board, connected to the Jamma Harness.  The video amp was working pre-cap-kit, so I would be surprised if that's the issue, but I can take it out of the mix if it's a concern.

Off to take that monitor frame out of the video-ground mix.

[Numbski]

Are you guys *certain* that the frame holding the monitor shouldn't be part of video ground?

The reason I ask is that there's a metal ribbon strapped all around the back of the tube.  At one point, there is a black ground line that is tied to this ribbon, that is in turn hooked to the neck board of the monitor.  Is this *not* video ground there?  Without even hooking up the ground line on the video harness, I'm showing continuity from that ground line to frame.

[grantspain]

am i certain,well after 22 years of repairing arcade machines i am pretty certain

the monitor frame should be earthed,here is a good example of why it should not go to video ground;
when you discharge the anode to the dag(earth) which is connected to the frame where do you think all that very high voltage will go?

the video ground(jamma pin 14) should ONLY go to the ground of the monitor video input plug

[Numbski]

Not arguing - just having a very difficult time finding how on earth the monitor's frame is getting continuity to that video ground line.  It's nothing I've hooked up, that's for sure. :\

[Numbski]

K.  So I have the monitor's frame separated from the video ground.  I had to sever the ground line between the neck board and the ribbon running around the picture tube (wasn't hard, it was held together using a wire nut).

I'm not about to turn this thing back on without further instruction.  The ground wire coming off the neck board shows continuity to the video ground line, and the ground wire it was hooked to shows continuity to the picture tube frame.  This connection was there when I bought the cabinet.  I get the feeling that these two ends should be hooked to something, someplace, but I'm at a loss as to what.

[Numbski]

Okay, maybe this isn't as bad as I thought.  I pulled off the neckboard, and it looks like the prior owner (or the repair shop???) soldered two ground lines together at the top of the neck board, one going to the metal frame/shield on the chassis itself (video ground I presume???), and the other going to that metal ribbon on the frame, and THAT is what's tying the two together.  I can only presume then that it's safe to entirely remove the black wire running from the ribbon around the picture tube to the neck board, leaving only the ground wire from the neck board to the chassis.

Right?  Right???  Please?

Now here's why that doesn't make a bit of sense:

The Wei-Ya's chassis has a ground wire coming off of it's neck board too.  At the end of that ground wire is - a metal ribbon with springy connectors that look suspiciously like the one that this ground wire is hooked to, as though that one wants to do the exact same thing.

Either way, I'm not proceeding until someone gives me an all clear.  Something tells me that maybe video ground should *not* be attached to the metal sheild on the chassis itself, and this connection point is a coincidence, and not the actual cause, meaning that the two are interconnected on the chassis, not at this joint.

[Ken Layton]

What are trying to do, kill yourself?!

A k7000 neckboard has two heavy black wires soldered to the ground foil on it. One of those black wires goes ends in a "ring" terminal bolted to the metal frame of the monitor main circuit board where the big white resistor is mounted. The other black wire goes to the long braided spring loaded wire going across the back (black colored area) of the picture tube. Both of these areas must remain connected to the neckboard.

[Kevin Mullins]

Thank you Ken ...... I wasn't sure how to put that.

Put all that stuff on the chassis back together and leave it alone.

Your VIDEO GROUND is simply a single wire that goes from your video source, either ArcadeVGA card video ground or the JAMMA harness video ground, and from there it goes straight to the video input connector on the monitor.
You have the video amp in between, but the same principal applies.....the video ground doesn't stray off and connect to all sorts of other stuff.
Straight shot from the video source to the monitor.
Leave it at that. Don't make that part difficult.