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Author Topic: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?  (Read 3238 times)

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Dizzle

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What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« on: September 23, 2008, 10:27:51 pm »
Hope this is the right place for this...

I'm starting to get to work on the 4 player control panel kit that just arrived from Mameroom.  This will be my 3rd and last project.  I plan on putting the panel on a pedestal and using a widescreen HDTV mounted on the wall for the display.  What's the ideal size for something like this?  I wanted a plasma, but the smallest the make is a 42".  I'm not sure if I want to go that big -- I was originally thinking 32" or 37" -- which means LCD.  Anyone have any input?  What size is everyone else using out there using for a 4 player panel?

Also, what other considerations out there should I be thinking about when using a wide screen with MAME?  Would 720P be a sufficient resolution?

Thanks for your help!

qrz

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 10:40:05 pm »
wouldn't suggest considering a plasma .
they are pwr hogs compared to other systems .
and replacement parts are nearly impossible to obtain.
of course, that can apply to nummerous brands nowadays  :angry:

video systems will continue to increase resolution ( i.e. nhk with UHDTV - 7680 X 4320 pixels   www.nhk.or.jp   )
so it depends on what is currently available and what ur willing to spend......

qrz













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MonMotha

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 11:39:52 pm »
Modern high-end LCDs are fine for gaming.  They have greatly improved black levels and overall contrast in the past couple years, especially with LED backlighting.  Low end TVs are still kinda blah, but the high end Samsung and Sharp stuff is amazing.  I actually mistook a Samsung LCD for a plasma about a year back when walking along the "wall of TVs" at Best Buy, and I have a pretty sharp eye for that sort of thing.  Just remember that you can't cheap out.  If you want a good 32-37", expect to drop at LEAST $1000, and probably more like $1800 or even up to $2200.  While there are sets in this size range for ~$500-600, they simply don't have the performance you need for this application.

You'll probably need to set things "properly" to get a good picture.  The correct setting on LCDs for brightness is generally ~20%, contrast ~90%, and backlight ~80%, though this of course varies with brand, individual TV, and applied signal.  Most TVs will ship with all three controls cranked to or near 100%, which results in a grayish, washed out picture.  CRTs are often like this, too, but the result isn't quite as objectionable to most.  Yes, when you set it right, it won't appear as "bright" as before, but it'll look a lot better.  Also, if there is a sharpness control, usually best to set it to 0.

Just watch out for scaler lag.  Do the "lag check".  This involves bringing in a laptop with TV and RGB (and preferably DVI) out to the store and displaying timecodes.  You then take a picture with short exposure time of both displays and compare the timecodes.  Use an old-fashoned analog TV and CRT PC monitor to get a baseline in case your onboard screen or TV out lags (they generally shouldn't, but who knows).  On interlaced signals (so svideo/composite out, mostly), a half frame (field) is fine and almost unavoidable on progressive displays like LCD and most plasma, but anything more than a full frame makes it pretty much unsuitable for gaming.  Make sure to test all inputs in all resolutions as scaler lag can certainly vary.

As far as using MAME with a widescreen, you'll have to set a "barn door" (black bars on the sides) option to have just about anything display at the correct aspect ratio.  Vertical games will be really bad in this respect and only use maybe 1/3 of the screen.  If you are one of those crazy people who doesn't mind stretched graphics, then you could stretch it to full screen, but you'd never see me do that (or tolerate it).  The graphics won't look "authentic" down to the scanlines you may be used to on older games, but medium res and VGA games should look awesome.

Like qrz said, don't expect to service a LCD or Plasma TV beyond maybe capping the power supplies if they should go bad.  There simply aren't many servicable parts, especially if you can't swap SMT parts.  Should it break out of warranty, you'll be trashing it and buying another.  Given that yours won't see nearly the usage an on-route game would, this isn't likely to be an isue.

Blanka

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 01:09:49 am »
The energy use of Plasma and LCD differ little.
The perception is caused by two facts:
Plasma's are mostly bigger
Plasma's are mostly brighter
If you put an LCD and a Plasma on say 200cd/m2, both use the same power per square meter. On mostly-black Pac-Man screens the Plasma will even win as it has benefit of low bright parts.
And indeed be sure to check lag. TV-s can have big processing delays as this is mostly not visible in TV shows and movies. Last European soccer championship this was really fun. People with cable, HD units and LCD TV's had their goals 3 seconds after the people with Ttube tv's with regular anolog broadcasts! It was real fun, even though it is mostly caused by the MPEG stream coding, buffering and decoding.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 01:14:51 am by Blanka »

northerngames

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 01:51:45 pm »
the 4 foot dynamo showcase pedestal panel use's a 39" screen

Rickn

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 07:45:26 pm »
I am thinking you do have ruled out using shooting games and such... otherwise you might have considered our 3M39 tri-mode. It is a true 39" flat CRT monitor that does 15Khz, 24k and 31 khz.

Yes it is analogue, so as you change resolutions you need to make adjustments.

Rick
Always happy to help.., for the best in displays
Rick Nieman
Rick@Niemandisplays.com
www.niemandisplays.com
1023 Rife Rd Cambridge, Ontario Canada N1R5S3
519-621-1722

Dizzle

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 07:53:58 pm »
Rickn,

I haven't ruled anything out yet.  I'm probably still a couple of months away from making the final decision on a monitor so I'm considering everything.  If you can point me in the right direction for information on that monitor, that would be great.   :cheers:

MonMotha,

Thanks for reminding me about the scaler lag.  I remember now that it became kind of a big deal as high definition gaming hit the forefront with the PS3 and Xbox 360, but before now, I completely forgot about it (most likely because my HDTV is an rear projection).  I originally thought the problem was limited to plasma sets though (not LCDs) so I learned something here.  Do all of these sets have some degree of lag and it's just a question on how much?  Is there any way to get around the problem with resolution settings?

MonMotha

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 08:28:31 pm »
All TV types CAN exhibit scaler lag, even CRT.  Many cheap HD CRTs are fixed mode at 1080i and scale everything up to that mode.  Scaling CAN be done with almost no lag, but it often is not.  Laggy scalers are cheaper and allow the application of some denoise that can help on analog TV signals.  All DLPs seem to lag; this probably has something to do with the scaler chain TI makes you use.  Some Plasmas and LCDs lag, but not all; you just have to do the test.  Many CRTs do not lag, but some do as mentioned before.  The Sony SXRD projection sets seem to be the absolute worst in terms of lag: they seem to lag nearly 1/3 of a second!

Progressive displays such as (almost all) Plasma, LCD, DLP, and LCOS/SXRD have to have interlaced signals deinterlaced before they are displayed.  This can be done with a single line of latency (line doubling), but the results aren't great, so most sets do exhibit a field (half frame time) of latency.  This usually isn't noticible.  Standard NTSC video (480i) is interlaced.  Many HDTV stations are also interlaced (1080i: CBS, NBC, most cable channels, some PBS), but not all are (720p: FOX, ABC, most PBS).  Quite frankly, interlace sucks, but we're stuck with it.

Some arcades output 240 line progressive, but the TV will want to treat this as interlaced in all likelyhood.  Some arcades output 480 line interlace, which the TV shouldn't have a problem with.  Probably best to just scale everything on the PC side if using MAME as most TVs won't accept CGA timings over their RGB inputs anyway.

As for rickn's solution, his monitor would be 4:3 which is great for arcade games as none of the classics and very few modern games are 16:9.  It's also hard to beat a CRT for picture quality (though geometry is not as good as flat panels and modern projection technologies like DLP).  An arcade monitor would also exhibit NO display lag as they don't have scalers.  However, don't expect to hang a 39" CRT on the wall if that's your criteria :)

qrz

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 09:33:51 pm »
The energy use of Plasma and LCD differ little.
The perception is caused by two facts:
Plasma's are mostly bigger
Plasma's are mostly brighter

i don't build 'em , i jus' fix 'em ...... :dunno
 that is , when i can get the ( insert ur favorite expletive here : ________  )  parts  !!

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-2.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-3.html
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-9360EN.pdf
http://www.flatpaneltv.org/article/flat-panel-tv-shopping-and-tips/power-saving-tips-for-flat-panel-tvs.html

and more by search engine ... seek , and ye shall find   ;D

qrz


SgtSlaughter

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Re: What size monitor for a 48" wide 4 player panel?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 09:59:14 pm »
Just wondering how this project went and if you got any pics?  I'm thinking of doing the same thing and I want some ideas =)  I was worried about building a pedistal for it and having it not be sturdy...