Couture vs. Lesnar

[CCM]

very interesting!


http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=7012&zoneid=2

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm definitely getting that one. I already considered any Couture return as a PPV to get, but I want to see him punish Brock so badly.

Couture ain't getting any younger, but come on, he's so much better than Mir or Herring.

Also looking forward to this weekend's Chuck vs Rashad fight.

Thanks for the news! 

[ChadTower]

Wait, what?  Lesnar isn't anywhere near ready for Couture.  And he's not anywhere near deserving of a title shot.  They have now officially gone pro wrestling.  They were always in a steel cage - now they just need to put on a roof and climb to the top.

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, I was against them bringing Brock in in the first place. That's why I SOOOO want to see him get humiliated. Hopefully he won't be around long.

Though he man-handled Herring, his skills are LACKING!

What's next? Guest referee Mick Foley? Tables, ladders, chairs?

[CCM]

He may have man-handled Herring, but it was painfully obvious that he had no idea what to do on the ground.   He had Herring's back a bunch of times and never even tried a submission. 

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, that was my point. He roughed him up, and controlled him, but had no skills to finish him.

[ChadTower]

Are you kidding me?  You know who else went the distance with Herring and couldn't finish him last year?  Antônio Rogério Nogueira, current UFC interim Heavyweight Champion.  That is the second time, BTW, Herring has lost to Nogueria by decision against one time getting tapped by him.  Herring also went ten straight minutes with Emelianenko before finally getting knocked out.  Herring is one of the world's very best at surviving against a dominating opponent and that's why they chose him to face Lesnar to begin with.  Herring's last five fights have all been decisions.

Lesnar didn't go for submissions because that isn't his game.  Why would he go out of his zone of expertise when what he knows was that dominating?  Herring didn't get in a single offensive move.

[Ginsu Victim]

MMA is supposed to have well-rounded fighters these days. Brock needs to branch out from his wrestling background.
I mean, he managed an easy win, but too many fights like that, and it'll get boring.

[ChadTower]

MMA is supposed to have well-rounded fighters these days. Brock needs to branch out from his wrestling background.
I mean, he managed an easy win, but too many fights like that, and it'll get boring.

He did branch out - with striking.  He knocked Herring down several times.  There are a lot of fans who find the wrestling just as interesting as the jiu jitsu.  Most submission work in MMA now is jiu jitsu and Lesnar just isn't built for it.  Jiu jitsu is about leverage against a larger opponent.  Who would Lesnar need that for?  What we're looking at is a guy absolutely perfectly made to be a ground and pound fighter - one like Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz.

[Ginsu Victim]

His striking isn't great, but there's a lot of power behind it! He's still pretty green, but with the right training, he could fine-tuned into a monster. The Couture fight will be nice to see, though he's not deserving of such a bout yet.

[DJ Infinity]

Yeah, I was against them bringing Brock in in the first place. That's why I SOOOO want to see him get humiliated. Hopefully he won't be around long.

Though he man-handled Herring, his skills are LACKING!

What's next? Guest referee Mick Foley? Tables, ladders, chairs?

what do you call the Mir fight? that was humiltion IMHO. His skillz are lacking but damn I wouldn't wanna take a hit from Lesnar

[ChadTower]

The Couture fight will be nice to see, though he's not deserving of such a bout yet.

I agree that he doesn't deserve a shot at Couture yet.  He still hasn't beaten a real top contender.  Herring is a great fighter but he isn't a title contender.  I just don't get how people can say Lesnar is so lacking, though.  He has very strong amateur wrestling credentials.  He won an NCAA Div 1 championship and lost in the finals the year before that (to Stephen Neal of the NE Patriots).

[Ginsu Victim]

Oh, I never said his wrestling skills were lacking. He proved that in college, then cemented the fact by controlling Herring the way he did. I just meant that once he has control, he's kinda lost on where to go. He's obviously too big to be doing any sort of BJJ, but if he improves his ground and pound, he'll win by TKO for sure.

[ChadTower]

Oh, I never said his wrestling skills were lacking. He proved that in college, then cemented the fact by controlling Herring the way he did. I just meant that once he has control, he's kinda lost on where to go. He's obviously too big to be doing any sort of BJJ, but if he improves his ground and pound, he'll win by TKO for sure.

Emelianenko took 10 minutes to TKO Herring.  You have to consider that when assessing Lesnar's skills.  The very best in the world took 10 straight minutes (not two rounds)... so Lesnar shouldn't have been able to pound him out.  You're taking credit away from Lesnar for not being able to do something most cannot do and giving no credit to Herring for being able to do what most cannot do.

[shardian]

Your linky no worky.

Anyways, this does sound pretty interesting. Much more interesting than Kimbo Vs. Shamrock.

[ChadTower]

Your linky no worky.

Anyways, this does sound pretty interesting. Much more interesting than Kimbo Vs. Shamrock.

Shamrock will either tap the guy immediately or go to sleep immediately.  There won't be any waiting around on that one.  Shamrock is a fantastic draw and very promoter savvy... he learned quite a bit from Vince McMahon on how to fill arenas.

[shardian]

Your linky no worky.

Anyways, this does sound pretty interesting. Much more interesting than Kimbo Vs. Shamrock.

Shamrock will either tap the guy immediately or go to sleep immediately.  There won't be any waiting around on that one.  Shamrock is a fantastic draw and very promoter savvy... he learned quite a bit from Vince McMahon on how to fill arenas.

I loved Shamrock back in his heyday. After seeing his head turned into raw hamburger by Tito Ortiz, I just can't watch him fight anymore - it's embarassing. Kimbo will without a doubt knock him out.

[ChadTower]

I loved Shamrock back in his heyday. After seeing his head turned into raw hamburger by Tito Ortiz, I just can't watch him fight anymore - it's embarassing. Kimbo will without a doubt knock him out.

Depends on how fast Shamrock can get him to the ground.  Ortiz is a ground and pound master which pretty much nullifies Shamrock's best skills.  Kimbo has not proven he can do a single thing on the ground - he may have gotten tapped by a total jobber in his last fight - and if Shamrock can get him off his feet Kimbo has no chance.

Of course, Shamrock could be doing what Abbott did - taking a nice fat check to put Kimbo over on national TV.  Kimbo's network appeal is worth more to the sport than the integrity of that particular promotion.

[Ginsu Victim]

Your linky no worky.

Anyways, this does sound pretty interesting. Much more interesting than Kimbo Vs. Shamrock.

Shamrock will either tap the guy immediately or go to sleep immediately.  There won't be any waiting around on that one.  Shamrock is a fantastic draw and very promoter savvy... he learned quite a bit from Vince McMahon on how to fill arenas.

Luckily, he was around Vince when the WWF was at its peak. The late 90s was best time professional wrestling has ever seen, when there was true competition with WCW (I loved ECW, but it was never a threat to either of them...they just had all their talent stolen). You'd hope Shamrock maybe picked up a few tips. Hell, the Ken / Tito feud was as hyped as anything I'd seen in pro wrestling.

Speaking of which, man I miss the real ECW....

[Ginsu Victim]

I loved Shamrock back in his heyday. After seeing his head turned into raw hamburger by Tito Ortiz, I just can't watch him fight anymore - it's embarassing. Kimbo will without a doubt knock him out.

Depends on how fast Shamrock can get him to the ground.  Ortiz is a ground and pound master which pretty much nullifies Shamrock's best skills.  Kimbo has not proven he can do a single thing on the ground - he may have gotten tapped by a total jobber in his last fight - and if Shamrock can get him off his feet Kimbo has no chance.

Of course, Shamrock could be doing what Abbott did - taking a nice fat check to put Kimbo over on national TV.  Kimbo's network appeal is worth more to the sport than the integrity of that particular promotion.

I'm fine with guys losing because they don't have the skills or experience, but I really don't want guys doing jobs in MMA. However, just like boxing, it's never going to stay free of corruption. Taking a dive is pretty much the same as being a jobber.

[ChadTower]

Kimbo will win even if it has to be questionable again.  They had to actually save him in the last fight - that stoppage was terrible.  Kimbo spent the whole fight getting rolled around by a nobody and was going to lose the decision until the ref called that weak TKO.  Shamrock is either going in to job or he's going to rip Kimbo's foot off at the ankle.

[Ginsu Victim]

I've never even seen Kimbo fight. I get so tired of hearing these people online go on about him like he's the best thing ever, but when true MMA fans who know what they're talking about mention him, it's usually as a joke.

Ken Shamrock has a lot of pride, so I hope money isn't enough for him to swallow it.

[ChadTower]

Ken Shamrock has a lot of pride, so I hope money isn't enough for him to swallow it.

I think taking that third Ortiz fight pretty much proved Shamrock is just making a living off of his rep now.  He has lost his last 5 fights, 6 of his last 7, and his one win since 2004 was over Kimo.  Slice is the bottom of the barrell for Shamrock - one last big check before he hits the end of his in ring career.

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, I guess he is just after a paycheck these days. Oh well, he had a good run. The sport has evolved, and a lot of guys from that era just couldn't keep up.
I've never liked Matt Hughes (especially after his TUF run), and seeing him beat Royce Gracie (not easily, though) still hurts to this day, so imagine how it felt seeing Ken continue to lose to Tito over and over.

[shardian]

I've never liked Matt Hughes (especially after his TUF run), and seeing him beat Royce Gracie (not easily, though) still hurts to this day, so imagine how it felt seeing Ken continue to lose to Tito over and over.

That's funny, because I could never stand Royce Gracie.  He tried to break the arm of almost every person he fought, and he used his gui as a choke weapon. I was soooo enjoying his final against Dan Severn up until that surprise ending. He did earn a bit of respect for that one, but I still enjoyed seeing him get worked over.

He was the mold that MMA has evolved from though.

[ChadTower]

Why was using the gi as a weapon a problem?  It was legal and is normal in many forms of grappling.

[ChadTower]

Guess nobody can argue that Lesnar doesn't belong now... Couture couldn't do a damn thing with him.  All he could do was control Lesnar while Lesnar was busy thinking.  As soon as Lesnar wanted out he was out.  Pretty much the only thing Couture did the whole fight was one pretty looking takedown that was more a product of Lesnar being tentative than it was of Couture driving through him.

[abrannan]

Guess nobody can argue that Lesnar doesn't belong now...

You think that will stop them from arguing?  All I hear now is "The UFC fixed the fight for their new golden boy."  I don't think anything short of him beating Fedor in under 30 seconds in a non-UFC held fight will stop those folks from saying he doesn't belong.


Personally, I thought Lesnar looked damn good in the fight, and I'm looking forward to his next match.  I'd prefer Noguiera as his opponent, but if Mir manages to get through, it'll be good to show just how much Lesnar has improved.

[lordtodd75]

bad stoppage 

[ChadTower]

Oooooookay... notice Couture didn't dispute it and it took him like 2 minutes to come back?

[Twinpanther]

To see Couture go down to a glancing blow behind the ear like that was pretty sad but seeing Lesner use Marios "Donkey Kong Hammer" technique to finish him off was priceless.  Honestly, I could almost see Marios Hammer in his hand as he pummeled Couture. 


Bad stoppage?  Naw, it wasn't in the script.  /snicker

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I think this was as much the age limit of Couture as it was Lesnar's ascension.  He just didn't look like the same guy he once was and it looked like he knew it.  I wouldn't be surprised if White gave him Lesnar just to punish him for being so difficult lately.

[lordtodd75]

figures you would have something to say. couture was recovering, lesnar was slowing down. couture wasn't uncoscious. no reason to stop the fight. there was a moment about 5 seconds prior to the stoppage where I thought he was in danger of the stoppage. but he weathered that. It was a bad stoppage, plain and simple.

[ChadTower]

figures you would have something to say. couture was recovering, lesnar was slowing down. couture wasn't uncoscious. no reason to stop the fight. there was a moment about 5 seconds prior to the stoppage where I thought he was in danger of the stoppage. but he weathered that. It was a bad stoppage, plain and simple.

You think that will stop them from arguing?  All I hear now is "The UFC fixed the fight for their new golden boy."  I don't think anything short of him beating Fedor in under 30 seconds in a non-UFC held fight will stop those folks from saying he doesn't belong.

 

[lordtodd75]

Yeah, that is a great quote. But it doesn't change the fact that it was a bad stoppage. I am not going to sit here and argue with you. Watch the fight again. If you cannot see that Mazigotti made a mistake then I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.

[shardian]

That stoppage is in a grey area IMO. It looked like Couture slipped when he went down - it looked like he might have been going for a takedown attempt. He was making an effort to defend himself. How the ---fudgesicle--- do you actively defend 1" rabbit punches from hell? 

Another reason I think the ref might have stopped the fight was because the way Randy was trying to hold Lesnars arm, it made it appear that he might be tapping. In that case, better for the ref to error on the side of caution.

That was hardly a 'screw job'. If anything it still shows Lesnar has absolutley no idea what to do on the ground. He never attempted to gain any sort of positioning. It is subjectable how long a ref should allow a guy to be pummeled before making a judgement on his defensive position.

[ChadTower]

He never attempted to gain any sort of positioning.

Lesnar secure Couture's right arm instantly and had a bulk of his weight controlling the torso from the side.  There was no way Couture was getting out of there.  You have to remember that's not just some guy underneath, that's Randy Couture.  A complete mount isn't going to happen.

If Lesnar weren't being so conservative he would have finished Couture in the first round when he had him nearly out on his feet.  At one point Couture's legs were complete jello after a clean shot to the head.  Dude may not have all the technique of the other guys but in three fights against the best in the world nobody has even come close to hurting Lesnar yet and he has spent almost all of his ring time in total control of his opponent.

[shardian]

I just replayed it - Lesnar never secured Couture's right arm. He got on his knees beside him, draped an arm over his waist, and started face humping him with his fist (I refuse to call them punches no matter how much they might hurt).

[ChadTower]

I just replayed it - Lesnar never secured Couture's right arm. He got on his knees beside him, draped an arm over his waist, and started face humping him with his fist (I refuse to call them punches no matter how much they might hurt).

Can't see it from here but I would swear he was kneeling on the right arm.  He did it to him up against the cage earlier in the round, too, but it was the left arm.  That is one of Matt Hughes' favorite tactics.

[shardian]

Since rabbit punches are illegal, I don't see why Couture didn't roll away from him. Force that big bastard to go for a mount!

Like I said before, I've never had a 280lb animal pounding on my face, so I have no clue how much damage those short punches were doing to Couture. I think it is safe to say that since Couture didn't make a move, they must have hurt alot worse than they looked.