Awww man, the Foley thread got locked!

[Havok]

Anyways, I don't see what the big deal is. Just be patient: he'll drop off the scene soon enough. To quote a favorite actor of mine: "...but like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target." - How many businesses have you gone through? Can't you just make one work and stick with it?

By the way David, that controller is fugly. You really need to spruce it up a bit...

[Mauzy]

Bet this one ends the same considering it was started with a pretty decent flame...

[Level42]

I don't understand why it's locked. Can the mod who locked it please explain ?

[saint]

I thought it had run its course and was about to turn ugly (uglier?)...

[JeepMonkey]

Edit - Misunderstood.  Feel free to delete.

[Namco]

This was news to me. I wasn't around when this all happened, but I get the gist of it. Many were rightfully upset when Foley trademarked the MAME name, then attempted to enforce or defend the trademark (which is necessary to retain a trademark) and in the process attempted to get money from those using the MAME name in their businesses.  This caused much anger and dismay in our community. Then eventually Foley turned the MAME trademark over to Simola or the MAME Team I take it?

He sounds like a shrewd businessman who burned some bridges in the community, but not public enemy #1. And those bridges were mainly hobbyists, and he hasn't tarnished his name in the business world and has made some successful deals it sounds like.

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

[ark_ader]

This was news to me. I wasn't around when this all happened, but I get the gist of it. Many were rightfully upset when Foley trademarked the MAME name, then attempted to enforce or defend the trademark (which is necessary to retain a trademark) and in the process attempted to get money from those using the MAME name in their businesses.  This caused much anger and dismay in our community. Then eventually Foley turned the MAME trademark over to Simola or the MAME Team I take it?

He sounds like a shrewd businessman who burned some bridges in the community, but not public enemy #1. And those bridges were mainly hobbyists, and he hasn't tarnished his name in the business world and has made some successful deals it sounds like.

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

He could have retained it very easily.  Remember he was marketting multiple arcade machine games with his Ultracade.  I would like to see some of you guys sink in some cash to bring out an arcade product to go into arcades and bars, only to find some guys making it possible to make the same product available free to the masses. 

I would be pi**ed unhappy too.

I would be more interested in his connections with the copyright holders, than flaming him.

Better the devil you know, in this case.   

[RayB]

... yeah and I'd be able to retain my Cafeinated Original Kookoo Elixer drink trademark (COKE for short) ...
 

[ark_ader]

... yeah and I'd be able to retain my Cafeinated Original Kookoo Elixer drink trademark (COKE for short) ...
 

I'm sure glad you explained that to us, I would never have figured out the abbreviation.   

[CheffoJeffo]

He could have retained it very easily.  Remember he was marketting multiple arcade machine games with his Ultracade.  I would like to see some of you guys sink in some cash to bring out an arcade product to go into arcades and bars, only to find some guys making it possible to make the same product available free to the masses. 

I would be pi**ed unhappy too.

Agreed, but don't forget that he already had legal ammunition to get illegal auctions pulled (including xx-in-1 boards).

I would be more interested in his connections with the copyright holders, than flaming him.

I was, but sadly nothing ever became of iROMS (David -- is there still a possibility of something like this ?)

[SavannahLion]

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

Probably not, if the MAMEDev legal team decided to persue the issue. I might be mixing copyright with trademark in my head though.

I'm not aware of any legal precedence where this specific issue was disputed. Anyone know of any?

[CheffoJeffo]

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

Probably not, if the MAMEDev legal team decided to persue the issue. I might be mixing copyright with trademark in my head though.

I'm not aware of any legal precedence where this specific issue was disputed. Anyone know of any?

He would have had to use the term in commerce and would have had an issue *IF* MAMEDev had decided to pursue things.

[ark_ader]

He could have retained it very easily.  Remember he was marketting multiple arcade machine games with his Ultracade.  I would like to see some of you guys sink in some cash to bring out an arcade product to go into arcades and bars, only to find some guys making it possible to make the same product available free to the masses. 

I would be pi**ed unhappy too.

Agreed, but don't forget that he already had legal ammunition to get illegal auctions pulled (including xx-in-1 boards).

I would be more interested in his connections with the copyright holders, than flaming him.

I was, but sadly nothing ever became of iROMS (David -- is there still a possibility of something like this ?)

I wouldn't hold your breath, considering your position and remarks to him from your last encounter on the other thread.   

I'm sure your avatar is on his dart board right now as we type. 

[Namco]

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

Probably not, if the MAMEDev legal team decided to persue the issue. I might be mixing copyright with trademark in my head though.

I'm not aware of any legal precedence where this specific issue was disputed. Anyone know of any?

He would have had to use the term in commerce and would have had an issue *IF* MAMEDev had decided to pursue things.

Come to think of it, if MAMEDev team or Nicola didn't dispute his claim to the trademark, it would've been his hands-down.

[SavannahLion]

I wonder if he hadn't turned over the trademark, could he have retained it legally? Was his one olive branch extended only because he was in an indefensible position?

Probably not, if the MAMEDev legal team decided to persue the issue. I might be mixing copyright with trademark in my head though.

I'm not aware of any legal precedence where this specific issue was disputed. Anyone know of any?

He would have had to use the term in commerce and would have had an issue *IF* MAMEDev had decided to pursue things.

Come to think of it, if MAMEDev team or Nicola didn't dispute his claim to the trademark, it would've been his hands-down.

---daisies---, I've got a misspelling in there that SC didn't catch and now it's quoted four times!! 

In any case, I'm losing track on what happened. Therefor, I'll just step aside.

[RayB]

You have to demonstrate the use of the trademark in commerce (what the USPTO calls a "specimen"), otherwise the registration gets rejected. They do this to prevent people just registering all sorts of marks and names (like how domain squatters register whatever suits them for speculative motives). It would be a tangled mess with people snapping up trademarks and not using them.

Under that rule, I'd bet Foley wouldn't have been granted the TM regardless if the MAMEdevs disputed it or not. (That's assuming he didn't build an actual machine and make the claim it was available to consumers, but I don't want to make baseless accusations, so... )

And of course, IANAL ...


Hmm, who owns this "Multicade" logo? Check this out, same time as the MAME registration but wasn't abandoned until 2007:
# 76629621  http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=2iuvta.3.8

MAME, # 76627578  http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=2iuvta.3.9


"iROMS" is abandoned. Someone should register it just for giggles (# 78607197 ). 

[davidrfoley]

Had I wanted to own the mark, I could have kept quiet until it was issued, and then no one could have fought it.  Instead, as soon as the application was made, I used it to shut down illegal competition.   No one contested the registration, and no legal action was taken because I approached the MAME team and offered to not only abandon the application, but also offered to pay the legal fees to get it done for them.  My goal was not to "steal" the mark, but rather protect my business as many people were offering competing products without properly licensing the software and games.

Global VR didn't bother to pursue the iROMs idea.  I may try and revive it once my current projects finish up.

[Havok]

Global VR didn't bother to pursue the iROMs idea.  I may try and revive it once my current projects fail.

Fixed!

[davidrfoley]

Very informative and useful Havok. 

[Havok]

Condescension is not going to make your latest business venture succeed. Enjoy playing the part whilst you can. Time will tell who was right, eh?

 

[davidrfoley]

Childlike insults won't hamper my success either.   Given my track record, it's likely that I'll repeat my prior success with my current products, and continue that way for many years.  As for time, you are correct, that will tell.  It certainly did for the UltraCade and Arcade Legends projects, just as it did for the Quicksilver and Graphite computer systems, as it did for SpiderMan vs Kingpin, Taz-Mania, and Urban Strike, as it did for HyperDisk.

[Havok]

My my, we do enjoy acting superior, don't we? False bravado is fun isn't it?

[saint]

Can we take it for a given on all sides that there is prior history with some bad blood and move past taking pot shots at each other please? If there's something in the past that's relevant to current ventures then fine, but otherwise please assume it's been said and move on.

Thanks!

[Havok]

Certainly!

Back to on topic discussion: the box you have pictured is about as bland as can be. Any plans to make it look like something someone would actually want to play? And what's up with the multitude of buttons on the top?

[davidrfoley]

There is a plastic console like version designed, but we are waiting on some licensing approvals before building that one, it will come to life in 2009.  The buttons on top are for Coins, Hud, Vol Up, Vol Dn, Test Menu etc, and are all mappable so you can assign them to any function and/or map them to any keyboard key that you like.

[Namco]

Perhaps David should release his Pinball Wizard product and not take any steps to pursue any licensing agreements or establish any trademarks and wring his hands all day in the hopes that the product lies enough in a nebulous gray area so that he doesn't get sued and no competitors emerge. The money he saves will certainly pay for the antacids he'll need, and when he gets put out of business by a knockoff product, he'll be a hobbyist like the rest of us! 

[ark_ader]

Before this thread gets locked, I would like to ask David what his plans are for Virtual Pinball.

Is this venture about to exclude the community who built VP and PinMame and go strictly commercial, or will development and avilable binaries still be open to registered users?

[davidrfoley]

I'm assuming you mean Visual Pinball, not Virtual Pinball. 

With regards to your comment that the community built the software, that is not accurate.  The Visual Pinball was built and owned by Randy Davis with help from others.  Future Pinball was built by Chris Leathley.  They own those products.  The community didn't build them, and has received them completely free of charge.  It is up to Randy and Chris was versions are release in the future and whether or not they are free.  I have no ability to control that.  Neither of these projects are open source.  I can not speak for Randy or Chris, but I don't foresee them not releasing future updates to the community.  I have certainly encouraged it, and taken steps to make sure that work that I was involved with was made available to the community.

Visual Pin Mame is much more of an open source style project, and like MAME, has been built by the community.  Given that, I see no way that I, or anyone else, could possibly somehow remove it from the community.

With regards to tables and the community, my past record shows that I have taken steps to compensate those involved in table creation and/or recreation.  (note:  there appears to be the exception of Shiva whose work was apparently inappropriately used by Global VR, not by me).  The table recreation do represent an interesting issue in that they make use of copyrighted and trademarked material.  In working with the various rights owners, I'm doing everything that I can to ensure that the community will have legal access to these materials in the future.

My intentions are, and always have been commercial.  Not that I don't love what I do, but I do make money at it.  I have never hidden this fact.  I do believe that commercial products and the online communities can not only co-exist, but benefit from each others existence.

[SithMaster]

It always cracked me up that the visual pinball table designers determined that they needed compensation... let's see... an illegal derivative product... and you want to be paid for it?  How about we just not sue you?

I always thought giving them some compensation was an extremely generous move.

Well to be fair they did spend time making the tables so it could be seen as compensation for time and effort for a re-creation.

[Ummon]

It always cracked me up that the visual pinball table designers determined that they needed compensation... let's see... an illegal derivative product... and you want to be paid for it?  How about we just not sue you?

I always thought giving them some compensation was an extremely generous move.

Well to be fair they did spend time making the tables so it could be seen as compensation for time and effort for a re-creation.

Simpler: they made the tables for the community, free of charge. The marketing of those tables in UltraPin didn't infringe on the VP community, but it would generate revenue for someone, and the authors felt entitled to some of that.

[ChadTower]

Under that rule, I'd bet Foley wouldn't have been granted the TM regardless if the MAMEdevs disputed it or not. (That's assuming he didn't build an actual machine and make the claim it was available to consumers, but I don't want to make baseless accusations, so... )

And of course, IANAL ...

IANAL either... but IIRC the mamedevs hadn't used it in commerce either.

[ChadTower]

How about we just not sue you?

How about we let you live?