Would this work for a hybrid vehicle?

[gourami]

New idea for a gas-electric hybrid.

The gas engine turns an alternator, charges batteries, powers car.

In addition...

On top, and in front of the car are fan blades attached to alternators. As the car moves, the movement of the air over the car turns the fan blades, and thus, turns the alternators, charging the batteries.

Here's the problem...

Does this constitute a perpetual motion device, which, if created, would cause the end of the universe? The way I see it, as long as the car is moving, the batteries would be charging. As long as the batteries are charging, the car will be moving.

My head hurts. 

[NiN^_^NiN]

Nope the wind resistance on the blades would cause you to use more gas/electricity it's been thought of and it wouldn't be an advantage

As for the Gas engine used for electricity has been used they get a small efficent engine that will create power as the engines not trying to move the car just charge up batteries it works well but the weight negates some of the advangates as that uses more electricity

[patrickl]

On Discovery they showed one of heir channel promotion clips with a guy driving around in a "car" that he made from scraps and it had a big windmill on the roof. I thought that was pretty funny. In all fairness the batteries were probable charging mostly while the thing was stationary. Still, it looked ridiculous.

[danny_galaga]

yep, in the realm of newtonian physics, of which all of which describe is a part, you can't get something for  nothing.

the basic idea of the hybrid is this. there are two big problems with internal combustion engines:

1) an internal combustion engine is only efficient at certain speeds. above and below which it sucks. thus you need gears to generally keep the rev range of the engine within an envelope suitable for the speed at which the vehicle is travelling. you also need a clutch since the engine has negligible torque at low revs. most cars (racing cars aside) will stall if you just put it into gear and try to take off from zero revs. because of the narrow operating range of the engine, you waste much energy.

2) to be practical, an internal combustion engine should remain running, even if the car isnt moving. obviously thats a big waste of fuel right there.

a hybrid should get around these problems this way. you have a regular engine to run an alternator. the engine will be running much as a stationary generator does. that is, at a constant RPM. this is most efficient. this combo keeps a battery pack charged that feeds an electric motor. an electric motor has full torque at zero rpm. at zero rpm it also draws the most power. but you only need that full power to take off from standstill or when accelerating hard. therefore its not necessary for the generator to produce as much power as the electric motor needs at full torque. the battery pack covers it for short periods. at speed, the generator is plenty powerful enough to keep the electric motor going.

to throw a few rough figures around. an electric motor that can produce 2 or 3 hundred horsepower can out accelerate a ferrari. this is due mainly to the torque at zero rpm effect i mentioned. at cruise you only need a fraction of that power, say 25 hp. therefore the petrol generator need only be powerful enough to produce that plus some amount to charge the batteries, so say 40 or 50 hp. these are very rough figures mind.  now, since you have a battery pack for taking off, you really don't need the petrol engine running while the car is stationary. it can just automatically start once the car is above a certain speed or if the batteries need a boost. so your 40 or 50 HP engine isnt even running all the time. in gridlock traffic, it wouldnt be on at all!

i mention all this because it turns out that the current generation has pretty much ignored the great ideas of the past when it comes to hybrids. apparently the toyota hybrids for instance only use the electric motor right at the start of takeoff, and at say 5kph its all petrol motor. almost pointless. instead of using a 150 hp motor, maybe they use a 140 hp motor 

the planned gm hybrid is more on the mark though, it will be interesting to see how compromised it becomes. i guess it will depend on how panicked people still are in a couple of years. much talk came out of the oil crisis of the 70's, but then it went away and no one cared anymore...

edit; how retarded are modern manufacturers? from wiki:

"The 1915 Dual Power, made by the Woods Motor Vehicle electric car maker, had a four-cylinder ICE and an electric motor. Below 15 mph (25 km/h) the electric motor alone drove the vehicle, drawing power from a battery pack, and above this speed the "main" engine cut in to take the car up to its 35 mph (55 km/h) top speed. About 600 were made up to 1918"

thats not far from the 'ideal' scenario i described which was all the rage in the 70's...

[mpm32]

I think this is cool for a bridge technology;

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

People aren't going to just chuck their cars and this might help us get by until the next tech is set.

The co. that is doing this is down the street from where I work, I keep trying to sneak a peek but I haven't seen any in person.

Also think about how much fuel would be saved if everyone did this;

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fuelec...0/article.html

I tried some of the stuff in my Durango and I now get a 2 mpg improvement according to the computer in the truck.

[patrickl]

i mention all this because it turns out that the current generation has pretty much ignored the great ideas of the past when it comes to hybrids. apparently the toyota hybrids for instance only use the electric motor right at the start of takeoff, and at say 5kph its all petrol motor. almost pointless. instead of using a 150 hp motor, maybe they use a 140 hp motor 

You're way off on the engine specs in the Prius. The Prius has a 1.5l 70hp engine. The electric motor adds another 30 or 40hp or so.

In your comparison with the 70s also remember that cars have doubled in weight. People expect a different level of comfort and safety from their cars and that makes them a lot heavier.

Also, the Prius gets energy from braking. This means it doesn't have to run the engine to charge the batteries. Charging the batteries by running the engine is actually quite inefficient, which is why Toyota tries to avoid that.

[Ed_McCarron]

yep, in the realm of newtonian physics, of which all of which describe is a part, you can't get something for  nothing.

Careful Danny, you're within spitting distance of PnR there...

Gourami:  simple rule to tell what will work and what won't - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[Hoagie_one]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

[RayB]

BMW M3 vs Toyota Prius:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq9ilgw1plc[/youtube]

[danny_galaga]

i mention all this because it turns out that the current generation has pretty much ignored the great ideas of the past when it comes to hybrids. apparently the toyota hybrids for instance only use the electric motor right at the start of takeoff, and at say 5kph its all petrol motor. almost pointless. instead of using a 150 hp motor, maybe they use a 140 hp motor 

You're way off on the engine specs in the Prius. The Prius has a 1.5l 70hp engine. The electric motor adds another 30 or 40hp or so.

In your comparison with the 70s also remember that cars have doubled in weight. People expect a different level of comfort and safety from their cars and that makes them a lot heavier.

Also, the Prius gets energy from braking. This means it doesn't have to run the engine to charge the batteries. Charging the batteries by running the engine is actually quite inefficient, which is why Toyota tries to avoid that.

i was quoting very rough figures. im going to check it out now, but id be very surprised if the prius is both 1.5L AND 70HP. thats a very inefficient sounding motor.

regenerative braking is great. but pretty useless if you arent moving    if this is what the prius does (no engine generating electricity for the batteries) then its no wonder the electric motor only drives it up to 5km/h or so! i think someone else mentioned in another thread that the prius doesnt get much more milage than their diesel car (although im not for diesel cars).

charging the batteries via a petrol motor is actually quite efficient. this is because, yes there are some losses involved because of the conversion of one type of energy into another, BUT the net effect is a lot less petrol used (and thus much higher MPG) because the engine isnt always running. and when it is, it runs at a constant speed rather than accelerating and decelerating all the time.

just checked the toyota prius wiki. good god! youre right about that motor! i guess its a whole different ball game. those specs are more like light aircraft engines. which now i think about it makes sense since both the electric motors AND the engine in the prius are running when accelerating. the electric helps pull the revs of the petrol engine quickly, actually starting it, it seems to me.   also from the toyota prius wiki:

"Auto Express magazine performed independent fuel efficiency tests, on public roads, on a number of hatchbacks, and in August 2007 published their list of the ten most efficient. The Prius achieved 10th place in the list, returning 41.5 mpg–imp (6.81 L/100 km / 34.6 mpg–U.S.). A Citroën C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi got 1st place with 49.6 mpg–imp (5.7 L/100 km / 41.3 mpg–U.S.).[41]"

and it also mentions the top gear episode that im guessing rayb has youtubed for us (im guessing because i have teh sux innernets and cant wait an hour or so to look at the clip!)

i dont know why you mentioned cars doubling in weight? my 70s model cars were/are about 1000 kg. the equivalent kind of car now is not 2000 kg!

anyway, gourami thanks for the thread. its got me thinking about hybrids a bit more (",)

also from toyota prius wiki:

"The engine is used both to propel the vehicle and to recharge the batteries. Because of the availability of extra power from the electric motors for rapid acceleration the engine is sized smaller than usual for increased fuel efficiency and lowered emissions with acceptable acceleration;"

[patrickl]

i was quoting very rough figures. im going to check it out now, but id be very surprised if the prius is both 1.5L AND 70HP. thats a very inefficient sounding motor.

Well if you think that 140hp is a rough figure for 70hp 

regenerative braking is great. but pretty useless if you arent moving   

The energy loss through braking is what drives up the fuel consumption while driving in cities. The Prius has the same fuel consumption in a city as on the highway. You lose a serious amount of energy while braking. Amazingly it's about the equivalent of pulling the car back up to speed 

if this is what the prius does (no engine generating electricity for the batteries) then its no wonder the electric motor only drives it up to 5km/h or so!

It only charges the batteries from the petrol engine when it absolutely has to (ie battery is low)

i think someone else mentioned in another thread that the prius doesnt get much more milage than their diesel car (although im not for diesel cars).

Yes so? You need less diesel per mile yes. Actually, some hybrids are now coming with diesel engines. Thought it was BMW or Mercedes with their SUV hybrids.

I still think they should ban diesel though. Or make sure they actually clean up the exhausts.

charging the batteries via a petrol motor is actually quite efficient. this is because, yes there are some losses involved because of the conversion of one type of energy into another, BUT the net effect is a lot less petrol used (and thus much higher MPG) because the engine isnt always running. and when it is, it runs at a constant speed rather than accelerating and decelerating all the time.

Really that's just nonsense. You lose energy three times instead of just once. Which is exactly why the Prius uses this as little as possible.

just checked the toyota prius wiki. good god! youre right about that motor! i guess its a whole different ball game. those specs are more like light aircraft engines. which now i think about it makes sense since both the electric motors AND the engine in the prius are running when accelerating. the electric helps pull the revs of the petrol engine quickly, actually starting it, it seems to me.

Yes, it helps in the lower RPM ranges so the petrol engine doesn't have to run at an inefficient speed. I think the electric motor it accelerates further than 5km, but it depends on how much you floor it.

Indeed if you are really in a hurry it will use both motors to the full. Obviously you will not be driving very fuel efficient then.

   also from the toyota prius wiki:

"Auto Express magazine performed independent fuel efficiency tests, on public roads, on a number of hatchbacks, and in August 2007 published their list of the ten most efficient. The Prius achieved 10th place in the list, returning 41.5 mpg–imp (6.81 L/100 km / 34.6 mpg–U.S.). A Citroën C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi got 1st place with 49.6 mpg–imp (5.7 L/100 km / 41.3 mpg–U.S.).[41]"

It's probably the most fuel efficient petrol driven car. I really don't see what the point is in mixing diesel and petrol cars in the same list.

and it also mentions the top gear episode that im guessing rayb has youtubed for us (im guessing because i have teh sux innernets and cant wait an hour or so to look at the clip!)

Lol, yeah that was funny. Of course it's just Top gears way of making something ridiculous. They know damned well that if you drive the Prius like a race car it's not going to save gas. My Audi TT was more fuel efficient when driving over 180km/h than my Honda is now.

One problem with the Prius is that it is not very fuel efficient on the highway. To be honest I think it needs a bigger engine.

i dont know why you mentioned cars doubling in weight? my 70s model cars were/are about 1000 kg. the equivalent kind of car now is not 2000 kg!

you have got to be joking. I had a big old Renault and it weighed about 800kg. It's counterparts today really do weigh 1600kg. My tiny Honda already weighs 1200kg.

anyway, gourami thanks for the thread. its got me thinking about hybrids a bit more (",)

Yeah. My dad has one and he loves it. I'm still not convinced it's actually a good idea. Actually the more I read about it the more I think it's not a good idea. It's currently "state sponsored" though, which is mostly why he drives one. It brings down the price of what is essentially a super luxury car (it really has the coolest features) down to the price of a standard car.

also from toyota prius wiki:

"The engine is used both to propel the vehicle and to recharge the batteries. Because of the availability of extra power from the electric motors for rapid acceleration the engine is sized smaller than usual for increased fuel efficiency and lowered emissions with acceptable acceleration;"

Indeed, but they use it as little as possible.

[danny_galaga]

i was quoting very rough figures. im going to check it out now, but id be very surprised if the prius is both 1.5L AND 70HP. thats a very inefficient sounding motor.

Well if you think that 140hp is a rough figure for 70hp 

well, i admit i was way off there. i knew roughly the capacity of the prius. i had no idea they would have made an engine so 'unpowerful'! my 1971 vw is almost as powerful! but with the engine toyota are using, its apples and oranges i guess...

[danny_galaga]

charging the batteries via a petrol motor is actually quite efficient. this is because, yes there are some losses involved because of the conversion of one type of energy into another, BUT the net effect is a lot less petrol used (and thus much higher MPG) because the engine isnt always running. and when it is, it runs at a constant speed rather than accelerating and decelerating all the time.

Really that's just nonsense. You lose energy three times instead of just once. Which is exactly why the Prius uses this as little as possible.

having a hybrid the way i described does not preclude it from having regenerative braking. it wont be as noticable though if its electric. i think regenerative braking is a brilliant idea. they are also looking at using a mechanical system where the energy is stored in a flywheel. apparently they want to use that in F1! this would also work in the system i was describing...

[danny_galaga]

i dont know why you mentioned cars doubling in weight? my 70s model cars were/are about 1000 kg. the equivalent kind of car now is not 2000 kg!

you have got to be joking. I had a big old Renault and it weighed about 800kg. It's counterparts today really do weigh 1600kg. My tiny Honda already weighs 1200kg.

i guess it depends what you consider 'big'. my type 3 vw is 880kg. heavier than your 'big' renault. but i wouldnt consider a type 3 to be big. if we only talk about small cars then surprisingly, you arent far off the mark. i searched for a vw golf as an example. looks like the first models weighed between 800 and 900 kg. the latest weighs 1447kg. but we tend to still think of larger cars as normal in australia. i looked for ford falcon as an example since they are a popular australian family sedan. the first model, the XP, from the 60's (which looks friggen awesome in the 2 door model  ) weighed 1170kg, while the latest model weighs about 1700kg. which is obviously not double. regardless, i still dont see the significance of that. you design the system around what the car weighs...

[SithMaster]

Does this constitute a perpetual motion device, which, if created, would cause the end of the universe? The way I see it, as long as the car is moving, the batteries would be charging. As long as the batteries are charging, the car will be moving.

My head hurts. 

What about using a solar panel to power a lamp that shines onto said solar panel to in turn power the said lamp?

[Ed_McCarron]

Does this constitute a perpetual motion device, which, if created, would cause the end of the universe? The way I see it, as long as the car is moving, the batteries would be charging. As long as the batteries are charging, the car will be moving.

My head hurts. 

What about using a solar panel to power a lamp that shines onto said solar panel to in turn power the said lamp?

Don't encourage him.  Avert your eyes and back away slowly.

[AtomSmasher]

I remember a number of years back one of my old friends from highschool, who I only met up with once every couple of years, started going off the deep end on bizarre ideas that would never work.  One of his ideas was to have a car with two electric engines, one to power the car and one to turn a whole bunch of alternators.  He seemed to believe that if he strapped enough alternators onto it, then it would generate enough power to keep both engines running.  I knew there was no way it would work, but he thought it was such a brilliant idea that I decided to just back away slowly and say "good luck with that"

A few years later I met up with him again he wanted to build a remote control helecopter that was the size of a normal helicopter.  A computer would be used to control it, and it would use cell phones to communicate with the helicopter.  He wanted me to just take an afternoon to whip up the software to operate the helicopter and to keep the helicopter stable so it would be easy to control.  I told him it was an extremely complicated thing to do beyond what I was capable of and that at the very least I would need to know exactly how to interface with the hardware.  It wasn't just something I could whip up real quick.  That seemed to upset him quite a bit as he thought I was making excuses and just didn't want to do it.  That was the last time I met up him, which was several years ago.  I'd like to meet with him again, but I'm a little scared what crazy idea he has now.

[SithMaster]

I'd like to meet with him again, but I'm a little scared what crazy idea he has now.

Perhaps he wants to build a mame cab?

[patrickl]

i dont know why you mentioned cars doubling in weight? my 70s model cars were/are about 1000 kg. the equivalent kind of car now is not 2000 kg!

you have got to be joking. I had a big old Renault and it weighed about 800kg. It's counterparts today really do weigh 1600kg. My tiny Honda already weighs 1200kg.

i guess it depends what you consider 'big'. my type 3 vw is 880kg. heavier than your 'big' renault. but i wouldnt consider a type 3 to be big. if we only talk about small cars then surprisingly, you arent far off the mark. i searched for a vw golf as an example. looks like the first models weighed between 800 and 900 kg. the latest weighs 1447kg. but we tend to still think of larger cars as normal in australia. i looked for ford falcon as an example since they are a popular australian family sedan. the first model, the XP, from the 60's (which looks friggen awesome in the 2 door model  ) weighed 1170kg, while the latest model weighs about 1700kg. which is obviously not double. regardless, i still dont see the significance of that. you design the system around what the car weighs...

Well that's what I meant. You said they should use a 40hp petrol engine. That's not going to be enough to move a 1200 to 1700kg car.

[NiN^_^NiN]

The prius will run till 60km then switch to the petrol engine

This is what i was told by my cousin who had a prius rental he thought it was great.

And here is what the net is saying:

The Prius will run on its electric motor alone if you keep the speed under 60 km/h

[protokatie]

Is it just me, or does it strike others odd that my 1994 Geo Metro gets the same gas mileage as these new fangled hybrids? Too bad I got rid of the Metro... Miss that car, and its suprisingly powerful 3 cylender engine... They should bring it back!

[Ummon]

Does it strike one as odd that Tucker got 28mpg in 1950 from a full ton car?  When I was in high school, I used to try to think up crazy ways one could...at least sorta....but not really of course....design a veritech fighter. Some things are silly. Some things are happening and you can just sit back. And some things haven't happened because somebody didn't want them to. Where are you in this? This topic now officially belongs in PnR.

[AtomSmasher]

Does it strike one as odd that Tucker got 28mpg in 1950 from a full ton car? 

That did strike me as odd, so I just did a little searching and found your numbers are a bit off.  The Tucker was able to get 24mpg under perfect conditions, but the factory tests showed it only got 20mpg at 50-55mpg.  That still is very impressive milage for the size and age of the car, but not all that unusual.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tucker-cars.htm

Factory tests showed a creditable 20 mpg at a steady 50-55 mph.

[Ed_McCarron]

Has toyota made the prius available as a plug-in yet?  I thought someone had kits to do so...

[danny_galaga]

i dont know why you mentioned cars doubling in weight? my 70s model cars were/are about 1000 kg. the equivalent kind of car now is not 2000 kg!

you have got to be joking. I had a big old Renault and it weighed about 800kg. It's counterparts today really do weigh 1600kg. My tiny Honda already weighs 1200kg.

i guess it depends what you consider 'big'. my type 3 vw is 880kg. heavier than your 'big' renault. but i wouldnt consider a type 3 to be big. if we only talk about small cars then surprisingly, you arent far off the mark. i searched for a vw golf as an example. looks like the first models weighed between 800 and 900 kg. the latest weighs 1447kg. but we tend to still think of larger cars as normal in australia. i looked for ford falcon as an example since they are a popular australian family sedan. the first model, the XP, from the 60's (which looks friggen awesome in the 2 door model  ) weighed 1170kg, while the latest model weighs about 1700kg. which is obviously not double. regardless, i still dont see the significance of that. you design the system around what the car weighs...

Well that's what I meant. You said they should use a 40hp petrol engine. That's not going to be enough to move a 1200 to 1700kg car.

well, it WAS a ballpark estimate. im quite pleased with my guesses so far, although i was surprised by the low power of the prius engine. 40hp WILL move a 1700kg car however, depends on how fast and how quickly you want to go. you'll be able to do over 100km/h in it. i think in the future we'll learn that we don't need to accelerate like a top fuel dragster to get to work or go shopping...

[danny_galaga]

I remember a number of years back one of my old friends from highschool, who I only met up with once every couple of years, started going off the deep end on bizarre ideas that would never work.  One of his ideas was to have a car with two electric engines, one to power the car and one to turn a whole bunch of alternators.  He seemed to believe that if he strapped enough alternators onto it, then it would generate enough power to keep both engines running.  I knew there was no way it would work, but he thought it was such a brilliant idea that I decided to just back away slowly and say "good luck with that"

A few years later I met up with him again he wanted to build a remote control helecopter that was the size of a normal helicopter.  A computer would be used to control it, and it would use cell phones to communicate with the helicopter.  He wanted me to just take an afternoon to whip up the software to operate the helicopter and to keep the helicopter stable so it would be easy to control.  I told him it was an extremely complicated thing to do beyond what I was capable of and that at the very least I would need to know exactly how to interface with the hardware.  It wasn't just something I could whip up real quick.  That seemed to upset him quite a bit as he thought I was making excuses and just didn't want to do it.  That was the last time I met up him, which was several years ago.  I'd like to meet with him again, but I'm a little scared what crazy idea he has now.

hehe. i went back to my hometown last week. i always visit the family of a friend (more than i visit him now). his father is a bit of an inventor. he even made money from a patent he had for a rear window car louvre- you know, those black things that shade the back window? anyway, he's been stuck in the perpetual motion rut lately. i feel awkward about it because like i said earlier, its obvious in the newtional world that you dont get something for nothing. if there were to be perpetual motion, you arent going to get it with flywheels and chains and counterweights. over about ten years he's gone through every conceivable perpetual motion cliche- utterly convinced this time he's on a winner.

my consolation is that like earlier perpertual motion guys, he may yet stumble on some useful mechanical attritbute. apparently this is how a lot of clockwork motions came about for instance.