Stern in the NY Times

[CheffoJeffo]

-1 Unignore since he didn't stupid quote

Anyone here work as an OP fixing Pins?

At least one in this thread that I can see so far ...

+1 Reignore

[Mauzy]

I just job shadowed the local service tech (if your curious, he works at Melody Music out of Champaign Illinois) who has been working in the industry for 19 years, and we talked for a solid two hours about pin upkeep. Back in the early nineties, which seemed to be the pin hey-day here,  they wouldn't have NEARLY that many mechanical or technical break downs over the course of months. They *somehow* kept their 200  plus machines one step ahead of such break downs. He also said that although they cleaned and waxed twice a month on their most played, they never got "black" or even close. You must have had some crazy traffic to get them that dirty and to have them break down that often.

Remember he ran SERVICE on over 200 pins and a rediculous amount of vids...

edited for factual error; helps to keep notes for school projects...

[SirPeale]

 Anyone here work as an OP fixing Pins?

Yes.  Had on-route about 40 pins at any given time.  Pretty reliable.  Of course they had their faults occasionally, but given the number of *mechanical* parts inside, and the use they get, this is understandable.

The parts in my kit were pretty simple.  Enough parts to be able to fix flippers on all the big names.  Some spare rubbers, lots of bulbs, and of course rubber and playfield cleaner.  Any major repairs the pin would be put down out of order and the part brought back to the shop to be repaired.  Since there were frequent trips all over for various needs, things would rarely be down more than a week, and a week is on the long side.

I miss working on pins.  They're fun to work on.

[Xiaou2]

 Location makes a big difference.

The store was in a Mall,  so traffic was very high.   Everyone from mall employees, to
customers were in there at most times.   Heaviest on nights and especially weekends.

 The Pins were used and abused.   Some were hacked by previous ops who
wanted a quick up...   which made things worse.   

 Screws and bolts came loose all the time.   Usually, a hidden one (on an assembly under 2 ramps), causing  damages when worked itself out.

 Taking 45 screws out to even get to some assemblies made things even worse.

They *somehow* kept their 200  plus machines one step ahead of such break downs.

 Either that is a Lie, or a mis-interpretation... or something else...

 Id be willing to bet that not  ALL features were working 100%  on all of those
pins that were supposedly fixed.

 Anything from a bum switch, to poorly powered flippers.   Not all ops care
to the degree of getting things 100%.   They only care about up-time.  As long
as its 'playable' (by their standards)... they will leave it as is.  And , Or, they simply
dont have time to go thru and test every switch and every other thing out.

 Also, were those EM machines?     EMs are almost bulletproof compared to
modern pins.

 
 I like to work on pins too... however, as a manager, it was no picnic.  Your
under a serious time crunch as dollars are being lost every second... and your upper management is on your butt to have all games up, at all times... making
Good money.   All that on top of all the other responsibilities that place needed..

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Either that is a Lie, or a mis-interpretation... or something else...

Careful ... last time you accused someone of lying, you couldn't be bothered to figure who said what and ended up accusing the wrong person ...

[Mauzy]

They *somehow* kept their 200  plus machines one step ahead of such break downs.

 Either that is a Lie, or a mis-interpretation... or something else...

 Id be willing to bet that not  ALL features were working 100%  on all of those
pins that were supposedly fixed.

 Anything from a bum switch, to poorly powered flippers.   Not all ops care
to the degree of getting things 100%.   They only care about up-time.  As long
as its 'playable' (by their standards)... they will leave it as is.  And , Or, they simply
dont have time to go thru and test every switch and every other thing out.

 Also, were those EM machines?     EMs are almost bulletproof compared to
modern pins.

 
 I like to work on pins too... however, as a manager, it was no picnic.  Your
under a serious time crunch as dollars are being lost every second... and your upper management is on your butt to have all games up, at all times... making
Good money.   All that on top of all the other responsibilities that place needed..

 

First of all, did I say perfect? no. The word perfect was ever used nor implied. I am sure not everything was 100%, but they did their best to keep everything that way. I was speaking of electrical or major mechanical issues. Never was there a flipper totally dead or stuck. Through routine maintenance they were able to see most problems before they got bad. Sure, some games would spontaneously break down, but these games would be fixed within two days, the vast majority of which were repaired within hours of the call.

They sold off their EMs in the 80s for the SS craze.

If you don't believe me, fine. 

[CheffoJeffo]

First of all, did I say perfect? no. The word perfect was ever used nor implied. I am sure not everything was 100%, but they did their best to keep everything that way. I was speaking of electrical or major mechanical issues. Never was there a flipper totally dead or stuck. Through routine maintenance they were able to see most problems before they got bad. Sure, some games would spontaneously break down, but these games would be fixed within two days, the vast majority of which were repaired within hours of the call.

They sold off their EMs in the 80s for the SS craze.

If you don't believe me, fine. 

Will you just keep it down ??

I mean, the last things that this discussion needs are FACTS -- those just tend to confuse Xiaou2 to the point where he will ignore you and whatever statements you happen to make along the way!

The guy is a total flake and, unless you are pyschic, telekinetic, or spying on him through his television, your confronting him with facts will only cause him to shut up.





















 
 

[Xiaou2]

 The FACTS have to do with MY ARGUMENTS!

  The Argument I made,  is that Pinballs will not make very good money when they
are not perfectly working.

 People dont like flippers that are not strong enough to climb the ramps.   They dont
like not being about to register a score that completes a 'challenge'.   They dont like
when balls get stuck on parts of the field, and have to rock them out and get the
dreaded Tilt.    These to most Ops, are untouched..   YET,  they are the sole reason
why Pinball FAILS!

 If you went to play Street Fighter,  and the joystick would not move Left at all...
how would that effect your desire to plump in more money?

 If you went back in 2 weeks,  put a coin in to try again... and this time the High kick
was out...  ?

 Then lets say that 85% of the time,  any video you ever played was like this.   Always
having some issue that RUINED the experience?   

 Would you keep risking your cash into a video Hoping that you might get lucky enough to
get a pleasurable experience for Once?!

 That is why Pinball fails.   That is why I said:  "Ops dont have enough time to put so much 
maintenance into pins,  and  NEED a more RELIABLE SOLUTION"

 
 Being that you want to focus on your own version of the facts means NOTHING.   The
real truth is that people dont like to play pinball when something does not work on it.
END OF STORY.

[Xiaou2]

 Chef Brownpie,

  I have more credibility than you ever will.

   Your an anonymous nobody.
   

[Mauzy]

No, I'M the nobody. He's got a good 2000 posts on you there bud. I think a few more people know who he is.

 The FACTS have to do with MY ARGUMENTS!

  The Argument I made,  is that Pinballs will not make very good money when they
are not perfectly working.

 People dont like flippers that are not strong enough to climb the ramps.   They dont
like not being about to register a score that completes a 'challenge'.   They dont like
when balls get stuck on parts of the field, and have to rock them out and get the
dreaded Tilt.    These to most Ops, are untouched..   YET,  they are the sole reason
why Pinball FAILS!

 If you went to play Street Fighter,  and the joystick would not move Left at all...
how would that effect your desire to plump in more money?

 If you went back in 2 weeks,  put a coin in to try again... and this time the High kick
was out...  ?

 Then lets say that 85% of the time,  any video you ever played was like this.   Always
having some issue that RUINED the experience?   

 Would you keep risking your cash into a video Hoping that you might get lucky enough to
get a pleasurable experience for Once?!

Anyway, I have to say, I actually agree with this statement.

[CheffoJeffo]

Being that you want to focus on your own version of the facts means NOTHING.   The
real truth is that people dont like to play pinball when something does not work on it.
END OF STORY.

But, Xiaou2, NOBODY disagreed with that statement. NOBODY.

What people did do is post their own experiences, including two folks presenting actual op experience, and you called them liars. You chose to ignore the facts that they were presenting so that you could puff your chest out and tell us how smart you are.

The argument that I had with you concerned your design for an uber-redundant-self-correcting-needs-no-maintenance pinball machine would be prohibitively expensive and would not fly in the current business environment. No op is going to pay $10K for a pinball machine. Ever.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Chef Brownpie,

  I have more credibility than you ever will.

   Your an anonymous nobody.

But I can spell ... my quote-fu is strong ...













I'll admit the flake bit was out of line ... kinda like telling people they have bad taste and are liars ...

 

[paigeoliver]

I find it hilarious that 90 percent of this whole argument has been ignoring the fact that arcades, arcade games, game operators and routes are breathing their last dying breaths. Operators have been going out of business left and right for years, machines generally can't make a profit on location anymore, and almost no new arcade games or pinball machines come out anymore.

Most of the arcade manufacturers have dropped traditional arcade games altogether. Dynamo doesn't even make cabinets anymore. Go check your distributor's website and see what new games you can actually buy now, and you will find a pitifully small selection of games, some of which are as much as 7 years old.

People just don't play games on location anymore, not anywhere besides game focused locations, which are themselves eventually doomed simply because of the lack of new games coming out and their relative cost compared to time to recoup investment.

Just sunday I was in a large PACKED pizza place for almost 2 hours, adults and kids, they have a gameroom, and in that entire 2 hours nothing saw any action other than a kiddy ride.

Go to a bar on friday night, sit there and watch that $3000 Golden Tee machine sit their unused all night, watch how many people don't play the pin in the corner.

5 years ago I went roller skating with my buddy and his wife during the big friday night roller skating session (of course we were the oldest ones there by several years), and NO one touched any of their half-dozen games all night.

The coolest pins in the world don't matter when they can't make any money.

[CheffoJeffo]

People just don't play games on location anymore, not anywhere besides game focused locations, which are themselves eventually doomed simply because of the lack of new games coming out and their relative cost compared to time to recoup investment.

Sad, but true ...

There is a reason why my local op (Canada's largest op and largest distributor) recently adjusted their business to target home/corporate gamerooms. They moved out of the more op-ish offices (you know what I mean -- offices that look like my workbench) down the road to a flashy retail showroom.

At the last "arcade" (2 pins, 7-8 vids, and 40+ redemption machines) I visited, I talked to the manager for a bit about the pins (Xiaou2 will love this ... both pins were RBION and one had a dead flipper!). He told me that the pins were basically there to keep parents like me (i.e. who will play pinball) diverted so the kids get to play longer -- they even have the replay score set low so that average players can play longer.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

The Argument I made,  is that Pinballs will not make very good money when they
are not perfectly working.

These to most Ops, are untouched..   YET,  they are the sole reason
why Pinball FAILS!

Seems to me like you are making two arguments ... and within the same post ...

[Hoopz]

Can't believe I haven't read this thread until now.  We need a new forum icon for threads where Xiaou2 posts.  Classics!

That "chef brownpie" was actually the funniest thing he has ever posted.  No offense Cheffo!   

[CheffoJeffo]

That "chef brownpie" was actually the funniest thing he has ever posted.  No offense Cheffo!   

No worries -- it was definitely more creative than me just calling him a flake ! 

[HaRuMaN]

We need a new forum icon for threads where Xiaou2 posts.  Classics!

I nominate this:   

[CheffoJeffo]

Chef Brownpie the anonymous nobody.  Got a nice ring to it. 

Now, let's not get too far out of hand ... 

[RayB]

For the record, Cheffo looks nothing like his avatar.
 

[CheffoJeffo]

Shhhh ... I'm trying to be anonymous ...

[Xiaou2]

He's got a good 2000 posts on you there bud. I think a few more people know who he is.


 The number of post does not mean squat.  It does not tell where you are, what you do, nor
display any form of integrity.

 Im known in many circles,  and if I really wanted to,  I could search out people Ive met PHYSICALLY
to back me up.

 In the arcade industry, when I managed an arcade for 3 yrs.
 Im known in martial arts circles,  for sparring in many schools & local events, as well as teaching.
 Im known for my New Age abilities,  mostly by distant family, 2nd cousins, great aunts, and their
friends and families... as well as some locals in Ft. Myers beach florida.
 Im known for attempting a Marble madness remake called "Marble Insanity" (as well as some other
games)
 
 Im known for scanning and hand editing then submitting the backdrop artwork for Discs of Tron  in mame.
And have sent via 'Postal mail',  a member of the mame team physical copies of the DOT manual.

 Im known in the Video and Pinball collector circles.   Like the people behind the Rochester Gameroom Show.
Im friends with them,  Ive been to their homes,  &  I was helping at the show.

 Im known for posting helpful information here, as well as  Artwork designs, and construction designs.


  I Have a solid verifiable reputation in Real life.   Also, one does not stay a manager for 6 years
between 2 different establishments without High Integrity and Responsibility.
 


 Now, lets see...

 Take a gander of the prices of  New video games:
 

Aliens Extermination $8,893.33

http://www.monkeysarcades.com/category_s/34.htm
(many more here)

 
 New game run anywhere from $4000 to WELL above $10,000.   Thats the way it always has been
for the Arcade industry.   You would be even more shocked to find out how much a new dual sitdown race
game costs.   Yet, people buy them.
 
 A pinball is no different.  I doubt a pin with enhanced durability would cost a full 10 grand.  Yet, ops
may in fact be willing to pay it, so long as it works as advertised.   Especially because since the game is
so well made,  they could sell it off to a home collector in 1 to 6+ years and still get nearly half the money
back in addition to the profits it made.   Also, a GOOD game will sell very well, and is desired by collectors.
If Stern were to fold up right now... their games with very few exceptions would never gain any value.
Thats how crappy they are.  Make a great game, and its eternally great.   Look at MM... its value has
climbed to like $6000 and climbing..  (for ancient highly used machines)

 
game operators and routes are breathing their last dying breaths.
and NO one touched any of their half-dozen games all night.

  As I said, the Coin op industry is nearly dead because the lack of quality and innovative games.
If someone made a game that was actually worth playing... there would be a chance for revival.
Yet, they choose to be both greedy and cheap, and make poorly designed Crap.   Games went
from being a great challenge... to a baby novelty.  So very sad.

don't play the pin in the corner.
 Was is working well?  See my arguments about pins...

Golden tee...  has tried to do the Street Fighter thing.  Making the same game over and over again.
How many years do you think a Golf games is going to keep drawing cash from people?!   No innovation =
no play = no cash.

2 pins, 7-8 vids, and 40+ redemption machines
Umm, thats Not an arcade.  Thats a kiddie fun center.   An arcade would typically have a balance more like:  30+ arcade machines, 10 redemptions, and 3 pins.   

 Btw - You may find this interesting...  but a  Super Mario themed pin at the Rochester show was nonstop
played by small kids and even teens.    It had shorter legs,  so the little ones could see the field, and
access the game easier.

 As for Videos...  A boy about 9?  Was playing a Sega Sitdown Turbo,  and was Lovin it!  He climbed
out with a huge grin on his face, and I overhear him say to his friend  "I love how when you hit the
gas,  you Fly past the other cars!  That game is Awesome!  Im gona save up my money for it now!"

 It warmed my heart    But it also shows how Boring and uninnovative games are today.   The
kid wasnt interested in the FPS competition there.  He liked the 20+ yr old Turbo.


 Location gameing will die if there are no games that are fun, challenging and interesting.  That is
exactly why its just about dead.   If one does not take the risk to make a good quality machine... then
it WILL DIE!   

 An Op knows this.  You should too.  Using simple logic,  one can easily deduce that putting
more cheap crap out there will not revive anything.  But a good piece may draw crowds...

 The last decent new game that made me drop some money into it was that new Aliens game.  Which
was pretty good.  However,  what else is there that is innovative and fun?   Nothing.

 Even that game Should have pushed the limits further.   Use a 3d LCD shutterglass system mounted
onto the guns?  Use bass shakers under a floorboard section that you stand on.   Add quadraphonic
sound by adding hanging speakers.  Etc.   

[HaRuMaN]

 

[CheffoJeffo]

You forgot how you are well-known here for not being able to use the most basic of posting mechanisms -- the QUOTE button.

[CheffoJeffo]

Im known for posting helpful information here, as well as  Artwork designs, and construction designs.

http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/6.html

There are good ideas, there are bad ideas, and there is ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like this that you have to take tainted meth to come up with.

 

[SirPeale]

Just sunday I was in a large PACKED pizza place for almost 2 hours, adults and kids, they have a gameroom, and in that entire 2 hours nothing saw any action other than a kiddy ride.

Go to a bar on friday night, sit there and watch that $3000 Golden Tee machine sit their unused all night, watch how many people don't play the pin in the corner.

5 years ago I went roller skating with my buddy and his wife during the big friday night roller skating session (of course we were the oldest ones there by several years), and NO one touched any of their half-dozen games all night.

I guess around here must be the exception to the rule.  The machines around here do a decent amount of business.  Except the roller rink.  I don't see people use the machines there.  But people are there to skate, not play games, so this isn't much of a surprise.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm well known for being a semi-sincere borderline troll.  What do I get?

A swift kick in the nuts!

[CheffoJeffo]

Before we get too far into a pissing contest about credibility, let's take a look back to the first shots fired in this thread ...

Tim Arnold says that the problem is that there is no place to play pinball. Tim Arnold was an operator in three decades (IIRC, he had owned 7 arcades) and currently runs the Pinball Hall Of Fame in Las Vegas, featuring 140 pins and 50 vids.

Xiaou2 of Rochester says that Tim is wrong (while calling him Gary Stern) and later calls him a liar. Xiaou2 is a well-known arcade-managing-martial-arts-teaching-new-age-practising-no-quote-button-using Robin Hood who can't keep his pins clean. He claims that it is impossible to maintain a large of fleet of pins and that people who say otherwise are lying.

 

[FrizzleFried]

X better watch out... him being so "well known" all over the place may cause the government to come get him and put him in one of the many death trains they have been building since 911....

 

[SavannahLion]

He's got a good 2000 posts on you there bud. I think a few more people know who he is.


 The number of post does not mean squat.  It does not tell where you are, what you do, nor
display any form of integrity.

 Im known in many circles,  and if I really wanted to,  I could search out people Ive met PHYSICALLY
to back me up.

 In the arcade industry, when I managed an arcade for 3 yrs.
 Im known in martial arts circles,  for sparring in many schools & local events, as well as teaching.
 Im known for my New Age abilities,  mostly by distant family, 2nd cousins, great aunts, and their
friends and families... as well as some locals in Ft. Myers beach florida.
 Im known for attempting a Marble madness remake called "Marble Insanity" (as well as some other
games)
 
 Im known for scanning and hand editing then submitting the backdrop artwork for Discs of Tron  in mame.
And have sent via 'Postal mail',  a member of the mame team physical copies of the DOT manual.

 Im known in the Video and Pinball collector circles.   Like the people behind the Rochester Gameroom Show.
Im friends with them,  Ive been to their homes,  &  I was helping at the show.

 Im known for posting helpful information here, as well as  Artwork designs, and construction designs.


  I Have a solid verifiable reputation in Real life.   Also, one does not stay a manager for 6 years
between 2 different establishments without High Integrity and Responsibility.

Do everyone a favor and read "Welcome to the Internet" by redpaw.

[patrickl]

I could search out people Ive met PHYSICALLY

I hope one of these people is your shrink

[HaRuMaN]

 

[Mauzy]

He had me at new age abilities.


Sure glad I got on the right side in this one. You guys can be rather ruthless sometimes.
 

[Hoopz]

Sure glad I got on the right side in this one. You guys can be rather ruthless sometimes.
 

There's a schedule.  You turn is coming up soon.   

[FrizzleFried]

Damn straight.  If you want to move right to the front of the line,  all you have to do is watch "X"...

...or suits...

...or Tranq...

...or any of the others who've crashed and burned in the last couple years.

[saint]

Don't make me come down there... 

[HaRuMaN]

Don't make me come down there... 

Shhhhhhhhhhh!

[Mauzy]

Sure glad I got on the right side in this one. You guys can be rather ruthless sometimes.
 

There's a schedule.  You turn is coming up soon.   

Is that a warning then? Sweet

[RayB]

Im known to many squares,  and if I really wanted to,  I could search out people Ive met METAPHYSICALLY
to back me up.

[Xiaou2]

Don't make me come down there...

 Is that a threat?  You think Im scared?

 I dont  'play fight'.   Someone attacks me for real, and they will be put in the hospital
or the morgue.