Tank II

[Fozzy The Bear]

Isn't that what I said to you a couple of pages back???

You spoke of impedance... which seems correct but I didn't understand enough to know what it meant yet.  What you just witnessed was me connecting the dots.

Yeah! I gues I wasn't clear enough about it..... Sorry!! I assumed too much.

I think I also said "The signal out of the game boards will be much higher and will drive it harder on the whites, giving you the image you're after (theoretically)."

But never mind! you got it now.... So at least you can concentrate on the game boards now and assume that the monitor is working. Otherwise, if you have something like a Comodore64, BBC Micro, Dragon32, or other computer from that period, most of them had a monitor output that was TTL you could attach one of those and see what you get. The games consoles you mention were all designed to connect to a TV not a monitor, so they will be unlikely to be putting a TTL signal out.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I figured as much.  I just gave away all of my old computers, too.  A stack of TI99s and several Atari 8 bits.  Dammit.

I just did some digging and through various places found that the TTL video levels would be expected to be between 0v and 5v.   Composite video, on the other hand,   ranges approximately 714 mV and the sync pulse range approximately -286 mV.  So I definitely learned something useful today, even if you told me last week.   

[ChadTower]

I pulled one end of one of the 8000mfd caps and measured it with the DMM.  It actually registers as 0mfd.  This thing must be deader than a can of Spam.  I was going to try to avoid replacing them, since I can't find 8000mfd caps for less than like $15 a pop, but I may have to replace them.

[IG-88]

Just curious Chad, I've been following this since you started, (most has been over my head) but is there going to be a point where you say the heck with it and give up or are you on a "mission" now to get it fully operational again? I hope the latter. I have actually learned a few things and I've kinda grown to like this project so I hope you stick it out. If anything your tenacity has been impressive.   

[ChadTower]

Heh.  Thanks.  If I do "give up" it will be in the form of handing the montor and game boards over to a friend of mine and having him fix them.  This game is going to live again one way or another.  Besides, I'm learning a lot as I go, so it's worth the effort.

[ChadTower]

Ah ha... Mouser has 8200mfd caps in radial for $2.37 each.  I'll have to find some other parts to throw in to make shipping worth it but that should work just fine if I glue it to the board and run wire leads.

[ChadTower]

I pulled one end of one of the 8000mfd caps and measured it with the DMM.  It actually registers as 0mfd.  This thing must be deader than a can of Spam.  I was going to try to avoid replacing them, since I can't find 8000mfd caps for less than like $15 a pop, but I may have to replace them.

Just for giggles I made the same measurement on a brand new cap.  Same result of zero, even following the DMM's manual exactly.  Apparently this is not a useful test.

I'm going to replace all of the other caps, since I have replacements on hand, and see what difference that makes.  If it doesn't solve the issue I'll replace the 8000mfd caps at that point.

[ChadTower]

WTF... put in the order for 3 of hte 8200uF caps. 

I'm doing the rest now... looking at some of the 1uF caps on PCB1... the schematic says 25v, which I ordered, and the caps on board are 50v.   

Luckily, I have some 1uF 50v caps on hand, so I'll just use those to be sure.  This is why I always order a few extra.  They come in handy later.

[Level42]

Chad.......I know it's completely off topic, but the roadtrip last saturday.......


Let's say, I've seen arcade heaven. It's like a small Funspot I tell you !!!!
Name a pinball, and this guy has it !!!!! Lots of vids too, f.i. lot of "modern" sit-down driving incl. a Daytona with moving seats !!!

He's also the one who own's the WOF, you know that cardboard box they "accidently" drop in that Youtube clip....I've seen the box and played the pin, and they are both fine

I already thought that no "average" person would own a SW upright AND a cockpit overhere. He bought the cockpit in the US for around $1500 and had it shipped over !!! Worked for a day and bam...dead ! I can only imagine how he would have felt......
The cockpit has the Amplifone 25" but there's a WG6100 chassis in it (extremely poorly installed). Will need lots of parts for both machines....anyway, back on topic

[ChadTower]

Niiice.  Very pricey, too.

[ChadTower]

PCB1 95% recapped... I just have to wait on the 8200mfd caps to come in from Mouser.

I went here yesterday to try and find some replacement soldapult tips and a compressor for the desoldering station I recently picked up off ebay.  It took a three employee huddle for me to make them understand what a desoldering station with vacuum is - and that what I was looking for was not an integrated station but just an external compressor.  After 15 minutes it was determined that they have neither.  Then it took them 5 minutes to figure out that I was also looking for replacement soldapult tips, and was treated like an idiot, because of course it must be reasonable to buy a new soldapult every time the swappable nylon tip wears out.  Plus they don't carry nylon tips "because they don't fit on a desoldering station".

 

[ChadTower]

JAMMA!  Almost had to grab my pitchfork and light a torch...

[Level42]

JAMMA!  Almost had to grab my pitchfork and light a torch...

He should GIVE you the PCB's to make at least one piece of arcade gaming history completely working....

Yes, as far as I've understood from the schematics it's both these AC voltages. It would be pretty hard to make 12V DC from 6,3 V AC. It's always easier to make a lower than a higher voltage.

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

[ChadTower]

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

But how?  There isn't any voltage coming in to the game PCBs other than those four AC pins - and they all test good.  It doesn't look like that 5v power supply in the monitor is actually being used.  I figure it's a feature the monitor has but Kee didn't make use of it.  The low 5v and -12v just seem like they have to be the result of bad conversion from the AC sources.  We'll know a little more when I finish the cap job.

Hrm.  That just gave me a thought.  Now that I understand the power distribution better, I should revisit the wiring harness.  I was assuming the game was using all of the features of the monitor.  Maybe it isn't.  We have pretty much proven it doesn't use the 5v power supply.  I'm taking a second eye on the audio circuit and the speakers are fed straight from PCB1 - not through the monitor, even though it does have audio capability. 

Here is what I'm seeing in the diagram as going through the monitor:

• video
• 110v (for the monitor)
• the coin counter
• the fluorescent light (which doesn't exist - it's a cabaret)
• ground
• one wire that isn't labeled - green/white.  Goes from monitor connector pin 3 to PCB1 contact 21.  I need to identify this.  Most other greens in this game are some form of ground.

Given this, maybe now with what I understand it will be easier to replace the monitor, if possible, since less things than I thought are being driven through it (particularly the 6.3vAC sources).

[Level42]

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

But how?  There isn't any voltage coming in to the game PCBs other than those four AC pins - and they all test good. 

That's pretty common right ? Galaxian runs on two AC voltages as well. The conversion to +5V DC and +12V DC is done on the game PCB. The schematics show that.

Without having to run through the entire thread again:

What values do measure on:
J3 pin 10 (Should be +5V)
and
J3 pin 8 (Should be +12V)

Measure to a GND on the PCB, not a ground "somewhere in the cab".

This is the PS part of the schematics:

You can see there are lugs for 105, 115 and 125 V. Check which is connected. Measure what your home AC is. Maybe by changing the connection on the transformer you can up the voltages a bit. (Suppose your wall-outlet is 110VAC ant the connected lug is 115, move it to the 105 VAC position.)

[ChadTower]

The inputs were tested on page 4 and check out good... it's definitely in the conversion.

Was just pointed to this from an RGVAC poster... haven't read completely through it yet but it should be insanely helpful.  It says on page 4 that the 5v from the monitor is used only for the coin counter.  It lays out most of the game board circuits in detail...

[Kaytrim]

Chad,

This is quite a detailed restoration project.  Keep at it I'd like to see you when you get it up and running.

[ChadTower]

Heh, I definitely feel like I'm going to know the game and monitor PCBs by heart by the time I'm done.

This Video Game Data Library manual is fantastic.  It appears to be third party - I would love to get more of these for other games.  The author's name is in here.  William Arkush.  Does that name ring a bell for anyone?

This bit of info from the intro is interesting.  How prophetic does this ring 30+ years later?

[ChadTower]

Man, Google turns up the oddest things.  I found a business profile for a William Arkush who used to work in microelectronics in CA in the 70s and early 80s... who then apparently went on to start a company called Glacier Valley Brandy in Montana that didn't last... who then had a run in with a grizzly bear looking for fermented fruit that was taken from his distillery.

 

Boozin’ Bear

KALISPELL, Mont. - A bear apparently bumped over barrels at a busted brewery and filled up on fermented fruit waste.

It seems the bear gorged itself on the remnants of fermented fruit, part of the debris dumped on the country property of Bill Arkush, formerly doing business as Glacier Valley Brandy, officials said Tuesday.

Arkush said he arrived home Monday evening to find a pile of debris, equipment and barrels at the entrance to his driveway.

“Two of the barrels were turned upside down and whatever was inside them was spread all over the place. And it smelled bad, with a capital B,” he said.

He also recognized some air conditioning equipment that came from the building that had housed his bankrupt brewery.

The building's landlord, Russ Olson, said it was Arkush's stuff and “we delivered it to him. The mistake that we made was that when we took them out of the truck we tipped over some of the barrels.”

Arkush called the sheriff's office, which dispatched the county's Office of Emergency Services to manage the stinky contents of the barrels, including possible animal waste and fermented fruit.

County officials decided to wait until Tuesday to remove the barrels. That's when the grizzly bear showed up.

Before finding the fermented waste, officials said the bear tore a door off a neighbor's chicken coop and rabbit hutch and tried to get into a building containing grain.

“The noise of the dogs woke me up,” Arkush said, and one of his neighbors saw the bear.

Tim Manley, a bear expert with the Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, set a baited culvert trap for the bear.

Sheriff Jim Dupont said no charges would be filed against Olson because “there is no criminal intent there as far as we can tell.” But he said the county would be billing someone for cleaning up the mess.

[ChadTower]

The game board power supply circuit analysis - look at those detailed test points.  Fantastic.  Note that the PDF is clearer.  The forum is resizing the pic and losing detail.

[ChadTower]

Both boards totally recapped except the 8000mfd caps I'm hoping will arrive today.  Well, all except one 4.7mfd 50v cap.  I ordered based on the parts list in the manual, which lists 25v caps, and yet the ones on the board are 50v.  I had some 4.7mfd 50v caps on hand so I used those but came up one short.  Probably won't make a damn bit of difference.

Annoyingly, I looked them up at Rat Shack, and these caps are $1.19 each... at Mouser they are seven cents.

I need to start keeping a list of parts I run out of so I can batch up my orders for common stuff.

[ChadTower]

The replacements for the 8000mfd caps are in... and somehow I ordered radial rather than axial.  I can get these in but I'll have to side mount them and run leads, taking much much longer than just swapping the caps. 

 

[ChadTower]

Just backfilled a couple of pics on page 4:  the edge contact repair and the fingerboard mod for keying the connector.

Also, what I had to do in order to get the radial cap into the axial spot.  I did that with a lot of the small caps but it wasn't a problem - with small caps the leads are capable of that.  With a big one, no dice.  I soldered a wire onto the positive lead, soldered the negative lead into the negative hole, hot glued the cap down, ran the positive wire back to the positive pad, hot glued the wire down in two spots, and soldered the positive lead.  The negative lead actually goes through to a trace on the other side - the positive one does not, enabling me to do that surface attachment.  I used a thicker than is probably necessary wire and it wouldn't go through the positive through hole.

I'm almost too embarrassed to post this pic.  Everything had been going perfectly on board work until I did this.  Plus the battery is nearly dead on my camera so the pic is blurry.  It's been that kind of night.

[shardian]

OMG dude, just go to Ratshack and pay the $1.50 to do it right.

When I got my pin, the power board had a radial replaced with an axial in a manner that there were two 4" leads soldered poorly to the remaining legs of the original cap, and the cap just flopped in the breeze off of them. I'm surprised the whole cab didn't catch on fire at some point from that fix. Here is a pic. Just in case you are wondering, that is indeed a bare wire for the "-" lead.

[ChadTower]

Radio Shack does not carry capacitors anywhere near 8000mfd.  No way I'm paying another $15 and waiting another week for a Mouser order - and Roberts' price is more than twice that of Mouser.  Plus I'm not hungry.

It ain't optimal but it is a whole lot more secure than what you found on your power board.  Leads are covered, cap and wire are secure, and there is no new glue on any traces.  The old cap was already glued in the same spot the new one is glued. 

[rodo]

Hi,
I recently posted a question to rec.games.video.arcade.collecting asking about information on converting Tank PCB's (I have two sets) to JAMMA, so that I can connect them to my supergun (I love this hobby, but I just don't have room in my apartment for Cabs). One of the replies in that forum pointed me to this thread which is full of great information, and I've been following chadTower's progress.

I wanted to share information about what I have learnt, and ask questions about what I don't know. I hope no one minds if I tag onto this thread.

Firstly, Tank's two '2 way' controls I believe can be converted to a 4 way joystick like this:
4 way joystick up - connect to right up and left up
4 way joystick down - connects to right down and left down
4 way joystick left - connects to right up and left down
4 way joystick right - connects to right up and left down
fire button connects to fire.
(repeat for player 2)

The problem comes when trying to convert the power.
JAMMA does not include such voltages as 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC which are the two that the tank PCB's need, and which are then converted to TTL voltages (and +12V and -12V for sound) onboard. So I would have to purchase a separate transformer and rig up a power supply for the 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC lines. The original Triad power supply is rated as follows:

Triad   F-83A   Pri:105/115/125V 60Hz
Sec:12.6VCT 5A　12.6VCT 5A

I have not been able to find an exact replacement transformer that has 5Amps, However I did find the following transformers, and I was hoping if someone would be able to tell me which, if any, would be a good substitution for the original?

HAMMOND
185D12 : 43VA, 12.6VCT @ 3.4A / 6.3VCT @ 6.8A
185E12 : 80VA, 12.6VCT @ 6.3A / 6.3VCT @ 12.6A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/HAMMOND_MFG/Hammond-Mfg_Power-Products_8361870.pdf

266N12 : 50.4VA, 12.6VCT @ 4A / 6.3VCT @ 8A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/HAMMOND_MFG/Hammond-Mfg_Power-Products_8362075.pdf

STANCOR
TGC43-12 : 43VA, 12.6VCT @ 3.4A / 6.3VCT @ 6.8A
TGC80-12 : 80VA, 12.6VCT @ 6.3A / 6.3VCT @ 12.6A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/STANCOR/Stancor_Power-Products_Mfr_9282120.pdf

One quick question. Does the power to the monitor come from the Tank PCB, or from the transformer directly? As I will be using an old Apple II monitor (I'm assuming the Tank video out is just a standard black and white composite signal) to display the picture, so hopefully a small decrease in the input amperage won't make much difference.

Just a thought. If I don't need to power anything but the boards (no monitor, coin mechanism, bulbs, or anything else), would it be possible to just plug JAMMA/TTL (+5, +12, -12) voltages directly into the PCB and bypass the onboard power conversion circuity?  I see that the -12V is @ J3/15, +12V @ J3/8, and +5V is @ J3/10. Can I just connect the power lines from the supergun to these corresponding points on the board. (I do see a +18V and a +7V coming out of the power circuit, but I'm not sure what these are used for or where they go. Maybe they drive the monitor???)

Anyway, hope I can get it all working. I love the bronze age classics.

Philip

P.S. Does anyone know what the 'undocumented playfield select bit' is? Maybe something to do with adding more maze patterns? And finally I know the ROM is an oddball (MK28000P) but does a ROM dump for Tank or Tank II exist?

[ChadTower]

Awesome!  The project even brought in a new member.     Welcome.

The problem comes when trying to convert the power.
JAMMA does not include such voltages as 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC which are the two that the tank PCB's need, and which are then converted to TTL voltages (and +12V and -12V for sound) onboard.

They actually come in higher than 12.6 and 6.3.  Mine are coming in as 14.8 and 7.3.

So I would have to purchase a separate transformer and rig up a power supply for the 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC lines. The original Triad power supply is rated as follows:

Triad   F-83A   Pri:105/115/125V 60Hz
Sec:12.6VCT 5A　12.6VCT 5A

I don't think you need a 5A transformer here.  The monitor manual indicates a power consumption of 50 watts when not using the 5v supply or the audio, or 100 watts nominal.  You can cut that out of the requirements.  I would be willing to bet you can use one rated 2A or less.  A whole vid is generally considered to be about 2-2.5A so the game boards aren't using much more than 1A at the most.

One quick question. Does the power to the monitor come from the Tank PCB, or from the transformer directly?  As I will be using an old Apple II monitor (I'm assuming the Tank video out is just a standard black and white composite signal) to display the picture, so hopefully a small decrease in the input amperage won't make much difference.

The monitor does not take power from the game PCBs.  The only things going from the game PCBs to the monitor is the video output - edge contacts 21 and 22 on PCB2.

Just a thought. If I don't need power the boards (no monitor, coin mechanism, bulbs, or anything else), would it be possible to just plug JAMMA/TTL (+5, +12, -12) voltages directly into the PCB and bypass the onboard power conversion circuity?  I see that the -12V is @ J3/15, +12V @ J3/8, and +5V is @ J3/10.

I honestly don't know.  You'd have to look at the schematic to determine that.  Where do you see that +12v is J3/8?  J3/8 is unlabeled in the wiring diagram in the manual.

P.S. Does anyone know what the 'undocumented playfield select bit' is? Maybe something to do with adding more maze patterns? And finally I know the ROM is an oddball (MK28000P) but does a ROM dump for Tank or Tank II exist?

In my RGVAC searches I found references to AlexY and Spaeth talking about making custom adapters so that they could dump the Tank ROMs... but the threads just die and Spaeth never answered my emails asking if he ever pulled it off.

[rodo]

Thanks ChadTower,
I'm looking at the VGDL Vol.III service manual. Figure 3 (power supply schematics) seems to show J3/8, J2/20,21 as having +12V. directly below that there is a line saying '+12V to board'.

Thanks for the info on the power supply. Should I be looking for a power supply that produces voltages in the 14.8 and 7.3 range, or is 12.6 and 6.3 fine?
As for the amps, maybe I can look for one with a lower rating, or do you think the lower rated 43VA transformers I mentioned previously would work fine?

Cheers

[ChadTower]

Thanks ChadTower,
I'm looking at the VGDL Vol.III service manual. Figure 3 (power supply schematics) seems to show J3/8, J2/20,21 as having +12V. directly below that there is a line saying '+12V to board'.

I was looking at that the other day trying to figure out what J2 is... the game manual labels the two PCB edge connectors as J3 and J6.  All I can think of is that J2 and J1 are the interboard connectors - those hard soldered, flimsy paper ribbon cables you really don't want to eff with.  The schematic does seem to bear that out if I understand what I am reading.

I can't read the schematic enough to see if you could put 12v to J3/8, -12v to J3/15, and +5v to J3/10 and have it bypass the power supply circuit.   

Thanks for the info on the power supply. Should I be looking for a power supply that produces voltages in the 14.8 and 7.3 range, or is 12.6 and 6.3 fine?
As for the amps, maybe I can look for one with a lower rating, or do you think the lower rated 43VA transformers I mentioned previously would work fine?

If I were trying to do what you are doing I wouldn't be looking for a single brick transformer.  I would be looking through boxes of wall warts trying to find one in the 15VAC range and one in the 8-9VAC range and then making a custom harness out of an eyelet edge connector (go back a page or two in this thread for a visual example). 

[rodo]

I also have an old Needhams eprom programmer. After I get the boards working, maybe I'll try to rig up an adaptor and see if I can make a copy of the ROM.
I still haven't used the programmer. I bought it off ebay minus power adaptor, and I have been waiting for the new adaptor to arrive.

I found this info for the MK28000, but I'm not sure how accurate it is:

The MK28000 seems to have a "Virtual Ground" (to quote Mark), which means there doesn't seem to be a ground pin.

VCC   1 |--V--| 24  CE or CS (Active High)
A0    2 |     | 23  D0
A1    3 |  M  | 22  D1
A2    4 |  K  | 21  D2
A3    5 |  2  | 20  D3
A4    6 |  8  | 19  D4
A5    7 |  0  | 18  D5
A9    8 |  0  | 17  D6
-12V  9 |  0  | 16  D7
A8   10 |     | 15  A10
A7   11 |     | 14  CE or CS (Active High)
A6   12 |-----| 13  CE or CS (Active Low or High?)

 
Thomson :: General Purpose Mask Programmable ROM
 

Specsheet / Datasheet

 
Number of Words=2k
 
Bits Per Word=8
 
t(a) Max. (s) Access Time=600n
 
Number of Chip Selects=2
 
P(D) Max.(W) Power Dissipation=340m
 
Nom. Supp (V)=5.0
 
Status=Discontinued
 
Package=DIP
 
Pins=24
 
Military=N
 
Technology=PMOS

[ChadTower]

I'm always down for being part of projects that benefit the hobby as a whole, particularly for old stuff no one else will touch, but that is too far beyond my skillset and equipment.   

[rodo]

Well, I've never used an eprom programmer before, but hey...how hard can it be?

I hadn't thought of using two separate wallwarts. I like the idea, it's easier for sure. But I'm not a huge fan wallwarts as a whole, and was hoping for a more elegant 'single device' solution ;-)

I think you could be right about J2 being the connector ribbon cables. I can't see what else it could be.

[Kaytrim]

I hadn't thought of using two separate wallwarts. I like the idea, it's easier for sure. But I'm not a huge fan wallwarts as a whole, and was hoping for a more elegant 'single device' solution ;-)

If you want a 'single device' then make one.   Take an old computer power supply and rip out everything except the plug and fan.  Wire the wall warts to the plug and feed the fan from a third wall wart at 12v.  Then close up the case allowing the wires from the two wall warts for your system connected to a terminal strip.  The fan will keep the wall warts cool and you have a power supply that is a 'single device'. 

[ChadTower]

That's a pretty sweet idea.  You may not even really need the 12v one - two wall warts with low current aren't going to generate too much heat.

[ChadTower]

Finished the recap... now the 5v and -12v measure way off. 

Test point 1 in the third party book, though, measures 15.4vAC - the book says it should be 14vAC.  So maybe I'm on to something.

I discovered one thing, though.  When I flex the main harness connector I get a big pop through the speakers and the hum in the monitor changes a bit.  Maybe I should check the pins in there.

[rodo]

check for dry solder joints.

Do you think that the higher voltages at the test points are because your inputs voltages from the transformer are 14.8 and 7.3, instead of 12.6 and 6.3? Just a thought.

I found two wallwarts on ebay from the same seller.

- AT&T AC Power Supply Adaptor Adapter 9V 9VAC 800MA
and
- AC Power Supply Adaptor Adapter 14V 14VAC 1220MA

Maybe I'll get them. Do you think the Amps are enough?

P

[ChadTower]

Oh yeah, those amps should be fine.  I'm not an expert but I just don't see the boards pulling more than those supplies can give.

I have a whole shelf of wall warts I've collected over the years... from just about everything.  When you don't need a specific tip for the device end they are very useful for oddball voltages.

There shouldn't be any dry solder joints on the repair I made - that's the new eyelet connector.  There could easily be a loose wire in the harness, though, or a bad pin.  I flexed each of the wires individually and got no response but if you wiggle the whole thing you do get one.  One time I got a game sound - a small explosion.  I guess I need to do continuity checks on all of the harnesses.

[whammoed]

If it only happens when you flex the entire connector, I wouldn't rule out a broken trace near it either.  Just a thought.  If you don't initially find any open, you may want to check continuity somewhere where the trace leads to instead of just at the connector pins, and if you find it open, go back from there.

[blinddog]

I decided to drop by and see how the progress is going. I talk to you over at RVAC. Props for not giving up on this. I was thinking the same as whammoed if it’s happening when you move the harness it could also be an issue on the board, broken trace or cold solder joint on a component. The 14v at test point 1 is "about" 14v that’s what the ~ symbol means. I've included the voltages off my board just so you have something to compare to. My 12s are a bit low but everything seems to be working.

TP1 was 15.1VAC
6.3 line was 7.5VAC
TP8 (+5) was 5.1VDC
+12 was 11.5VDC
TP5 (-12) was -11.2

As for the alternate mazes there is a second configuration programmed into the rom. According to my notes all you have to do is ground D9 pin 6 on board 2. I haven’t done it yet (working on my night driver project right now) but I just got a second board so I can plus do a couple other mods too, controllable shells and reset tank location after you blow up. Keep up the good fight.
-Matt

[ChadTower]

Hey thanks, I appreciate the info.  I assumed the ~ meant AC like it does on the meter.