Neighborhood problem turns violent

[MikeQ]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.


http://www.local6.com/news/15014272/detail.html

[tommy]

That means nothing to me, mike. I can find stories where a kid got ran over by a car and post it here. I can find a story of where a kid got shot because his drug dealing father was into stuff that was not safe for his family.

What is your point in making a special trip here to post a pt bull story over any other?


Things happen in life that we cannot help, it's sad but true.

[MikeQ]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Not owning a pit bull can solve the problem.  This isn't a problem that can't be helped.

[tommy]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

[billf]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

MikeQ posts a link to a story about the very topic this thread is covering and he's the "farking idiot"?   

[MikeQ]

You might want to check your home owners liability policy too.  In Florida most policies don't cover the pit bull breed specifically.  If your dog attacks someone your liability insurance will not cover the attack.  Any medical or legal case will come directly out of your pocket.

Just some helpful advice.

[tommy]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

MikeQ posts a link to a story about the very topic this thread is covering and he's the "farking idiot"?   

Yes he is an idiot. He did not read and comprehend the type of person who owns dogs who hurt others and did not bother to make a distinction between a person who is in control of their dog and a person who can care less about his dog hurting someone. He was attempting to just be an ass and pile on another story contributing to the bad-rep.

You might want to check your home owners liability policy too.  In Florida most policies don't cover the pit bull breed specifically.  If your dog attacks someone your liability insurance will not cover the attack.  Any medical or legal case will come directly out of your pocket.

Just some helpful advice.

You are nothing but a fool to think my dog would be anymore inclined to hurt me as your "any dog breed here" would hurt you or your family.

[CCM]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/09/2135180.htm

http://wjz.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626475.html

http://cbs13.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626100.html

http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_009084425.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=5878108

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1199768741309150.xml&coll=5

[tommy]

You're a bastard CCM. I can say one thing, if there is one person who deserves to be eaten alive by a pit bull it is you.

[CCM]

    

[tommy]

 

[billf]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/09/2135180.htm

http://wjz.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626475.html

http://cbs13.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626100.html

http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_009084425.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=5878108

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1199768741309150.xml&coll=5

Holy crap, all of those stories are dated within the last couple of days.

[MikeQ]

I'm sure tommy is familiar with the Clifton dog bite report.  It actually proves that statistically Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have a much higher propensity to attack and a far higher likelyhood to kill their victim.

It also covers that owner/training issue.  Most attacks were not in character with animal normal behavior and are almost always on a family member.   The attacks are often by dogs who have never shown aggression and lived with a caring family for many years.

I read up on this matter when my municipality was challenging a state statute the prohibits banning of certain breeds.  It is how I learned about the current legislation that is being drafted to reverse Statute 767.14 and allowing the banning of certain breeds.


Anyway, I didn't mean for my post to derail this thread into a "Pitbulls are a spawn of the devil".  I was simply posting to show Sharidan that while this incident was unfortunate, it could have ended in an even more unfortunate situation.  No dogs life is worth more than a child's.

[tommy]

It actually proves that statistically Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have a much higher propensity to attack and a far higher likelyhood to kill their victim.

Yes, I agree. In the wrong hands a gun can be very dangerous.

[MikeQ]

Well, the report disputes that.  It shows that even responsibly owned pit bulls just "snap".   One of the real issues here is that the breed is a well designed killing machine.  They can kill very effectively.  When a Labrador has a bad day and bites you, you get a puncture wound in your hand.  When a pit bull has a bad day, they instinctively go for the face or throat.  If your lucky you live.

Sometimes they do worse:

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49447

[tommy]

Can you please explain why my pit has not shown ANY aggression for almost 8 years now and has never bitten anyone or even slightly acted like he wanted to bite anyone?

I even recently got another pit going on two years and the same holds true.

Don't give me that garbage that it will still happen or some garbage like that. It's just not true. We are talking about a dog here, not some computer program that can crash at random with no reason and is not explainable.

What you hear abut these dogs is just not true. If I didn't tell you my dog was a pit you would not be able to tell the difference in the dog at all.

[MikeQ]

I'm not saying your dog will for sure.  However, it is the case in almost all attacks on family members that the dog had never been aggressive before. 

Anyway, we've derailed this thread enough.

[tommy]

I'm not saying your dog will for sure.  However, it is the case in almost all attacks on family members that the dog had never been aggressive before. 

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

How can a good person NOT have an good effect on a dog, it is not possible. Take the time and make it happen.

[MikeQ]

Look at your own argument though.  You've had him for 8 years and not attack.  There are many stories just like yours where people have raised a Pit Bull from a puppy and then it kills a child in the home.  Again, the first sign of aggression ever was the killing of the child.  The dog had lived in the home for many many years with no aggression until he killed the child.  This Titusville attack, the child had lived with the dog for 4 years.

If the dog wasn't raised right, he wouldn't have waited 8 years to attack.  He would have attacked much earlier. 

I have a 13 year old dog and a 16 year old dog who recently died.  Both have nipped me for no apparent reason.  They are small dogs so a nip just draws some blood on a finger.  These dogs have been with my wife and I since we were first married.  They were are first children.  They have been family members for longer than my children have been.  They have always been well trained and treated, yet they nip.  They nipped me doing things with them that I had done 1000's of times (playing, taking things away).  Yet on  2 occasions for whatever reason they decided to bite.  With a less aggressive breed this isn't a problem.  With a pit bull it's like spinning the chamber on a gun and putting to your head.  Like I said, (and look at the incident reports) they go for the throat and face, instinctively.  Most predatory animals do.

The problem is that you don't even know what it is that is going to set them off.  No amount of training or uber owner skills are going to help you.  It might not even be something you did.  It might be that there is a dog in heat 5 houses down the street and you aren't even aware.

[tommy]

I don't know what to tell you, if your dogs are "nipping"you you need to curb that behaviour a long time ago and the way you sound as if you accept it and it is natural for the dogs to be doing this. This not a dog owner doing the right thing and is surly not supporting your stance.

[tommy]

Whatever you have to say next, mike. It has been good talking to you and for once on this board it was enjoyable talking to a person who is rational and is calm when debating a topic, and I applaud you.

[ChadTower]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.

That means nothing to me, mike.

 

[tommy]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.

That means nothing to me, mike.

 

Come on now. Is that what I really meant? Don't try that here.

[AtomSmasher]

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

It seems that you agree (without actually admitting that you agree) that they are naturally more aggressive and dangerous then other breeds of dogs since they require a very specific type of training for them to be properly domesticated.  Judging by the number of pitbull attacks, it seems its a type of training that few pitbull owner know how to do properly (or at all, in many cases).  You keep talking about how cars kill people, but you have to pass a test to prove you are able to drive before you can legally drive a car.  Don't you think it makes sense that a person should have to take a test (or pass a class or something) to make sure they know the proper way to raise a pitbull before they are allowed to own one?

[tommy]

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

It seems that you agree (without actually admitting that you agree) that they are naturally more aggressive and dangerous then other breeds of dogs since they require a very specific type of training for them to be properly domesticated.  Judging by the number of pitbull attacks, it seems its a type of training that few pitbull owner know how to do properly (or at all, in many cases).  You keep talking about how cars kill people, but you have to pass a test to prove you are able to drive before you can legally drive a car.  Don't you think it makes sense that a person should have to take a test (or pass a class or something) to make sure they know the proper way to raise a pitbull before they are allowed to own one?

Yes!!

[MikeQ]

I don't know what to tell you, if your dogs are "nipping"you you need to curb that behaviour a long time ago and the way you sound as if you accept it and it is natural for the dogs to be doing this. This not a dog owner doing the right thing and is surly not supporting your stance.

Once in 16 years for the oldest dog and once in 13 years for the younger dog.  This isn't a regular occurrence.  We surmised later with the 16 year old it was because she was getting old and was having pain from arthritis.  Simply picking her up caused her to nip me.  She was having an instinctive reaction to pain that she perceived me as causing.  I could not have know this or done anything different.  Once the arthritis worsened it became obvious because she was visibly stiff.  Our vet put her on NSAIDS and she did well until she died from heart failure a year later.  

My younger dog nipped me when he and I were playing around.  He either got excited, scared, or maybe twisted in a way that caused him pain.  I don't know.  I'd played with him like this 1000's of times and never had an incident.  

The point is that no owner can know what a dog is thinking and how he is going to react to every situation.  You said it yourself, they aren't a computer program.  All dogs can be loving and playful but they are also unpredictable .  Anyone who thinks they can know what the dog is thinking and predict there behavior is just in denial.  I just hope for you sake that if your dog ever does have a bad moment, he doesn't kill or seriously injure anyone.  Good Luck.

[tommy]

If a dog is old or in pain I have no problem agreeing the dog will bite you. This is not the case in these dog bites we are talking about.

[AtomSmasher]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

[MikeQ]

How do we know that wasn't a factor in some of these attacks?  Also, me playing with my other dog was not a case of him being old.  He's 13 now but he nipped me years ago.   He wasn't a puppy but he wasn't old either.

[tommy]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

Thank you. That is good enough for me to concede in this crowed at this point. At least it's a start.

[MikeQ]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

One thing to consider is that a lot of people own dogs and are irresponsible with them.  If Pit Bull attacks were truly solely because of irresponsible owners the number of attacks by Pit Bulls vs other big breeds would be about the same.  The "bad element" of people generally don't go out and buy pure bread dogs either.  If it all came down to irresponsible owners, then the average mutt would be the "most hated dog" and not the Pit Bull.
Also, the whole reason the "bad element" of people own Pit Bulls is because of the vicious nature.  The dog doesn't have a vicious nature because he is owned by the "bad element".  The bad element encourages the vicious behavior but it is already there.  It is not much different than tigers who have been trained their whole life and one day attack the trainer.  They are inherently dangerous and have the potential to kill.  No amount of training is going to change that, only better the odds that it won't happen.

[tommy]

I also wanted to say sorry for calling you an idiot, mike. I lumped you in with others on this board and clearly you should not be.

[MikeQ]

No problem.  Thanks for the conversation.

[AtomSmasher]

They are inherently dangerous and have the potential to kill.  No amount of training is going to change that, only better the odds that it won't happen.

Exactly. 

[tommy]

Aren't you gonna say sorry for saying my dog is gonna kill me one day? 

[CheffoJeffo]

I lumped you in with others on this board and clearly you should not be.

That happens ... and you still shouldn't lump me in with the troublemakers ... 

[saint]

You're a bastard CCM.

That would be the proverbial straw.

[shardian]

You shouldn't tick off Saint Tommy. I happened upon this footage of what he did to the last guy who ticked him off...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8[/youtube]

[mpm32]

Don't give me that garbage that it will still happen or some garbage like that. It's just not true. We are talking about a dog here, not some computer program that can crash at random with no reason and is not explainable.

Tommy, did you read my story?  We had my Akita for 5 years before he showed any signs of aggression.

It can happen and it has happened.

BTW I have also known many pits that were very sweet.  Although when playing with them I wouldn't put my face near theirs.  Just like a tiger trainer has a very healthy respect for the tigers in his care, even if they've never bitten him before or have shown no signs previously.  The trainer should never forget that they are dealing with a tiger.


Ha, I sounded like Confucius.

[ChadTower]

And all of that brings us back to the question I keep asking over and over and over again:

How do you preemptively ban the bad owners without banning the dogs entirely?

Or do people find allowing such attacks acceptable with "proper punishment for the owner" after the fact?