Replace a 2-prong wall outlet with a 3-prong wall outlet?

[MaximRecoil]

Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.

The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.

What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?

[saint]

Does the circuit daisy-chain to any other circuits upstream or downstream? Is it back-fed anywhere? Are you using the right gauge wire for the amperage? Are you going to follow the proper pathway for the wiring as required by code? Did the previous installer? Has the code changed since it was installed so that you can't follow the existing pathway? Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?

Are you ever going to sell the house? If you've done something against code even if you've wired it "correctly", after the sale you can be liable for the cost of bringing it up to code -- much less your liability after the sale if you did it incorrectly. God forbid you sell the house, something happens with the electrical system even if you did it "correctly" and they bring civil suit against you since it wasn't installed by a certified electrician.

It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.

If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.

Anything else is just damned foolish.

--- saint

[saint]

Will your insurance company honor your insurance in case of electrical fire, even if it wasn't your fault, if it's discovered the wiring was done by you instead of a professional?

[shardian]

Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.

The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.

What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?

A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.

[Ed_McCarron]

A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.

Thats the theory, as long as its a hard short.  A heater element shorting against a metal heater case?  Blown breaker.  You wouldn't pull 20A if you grabbed hot and, oh, say, a grounded water pipe.  Thats where the GFCI kicks in - it monitors the imbalance between hot and neutral - even if it is only microamps.

Grab hot and ground with your hands and you become a 200A biological fuse - you won't burn open, and you won't pull enough current to trip the breaker.  Your loved ones will find you before the breaker kicks.

I've been hit with 480, phase to phase - luckily it was the back of my hand that brushed the buss bars.  My arm muscles spasmed, pulling my hand away and knocking me off the ladder.  Had I grabbed that bar, I wouldn't be here typing.

Go ahead and wire it how you want, Maxim.  Do us a favor tho, and bookmark this for future use:  http://www.darwinawards.com/

[ChadTower]

I love that site.

In order to qualify for a Darwin Award, a person must remove himself from the gene pool via an "astounding misapplication of judgment." Three litres of sherry up the butt can only be described as astounding. Unsurprisingly, his neighbors said they were surprised to learn of the incident.

[MaximRecoil]

Go ahead and wire it how you want, Maxim.  Do us a favor tho, and bookmark this for future use:  http://www.darwinawards.com/

Have you actually read anything I've typed? Do I need to draw a picture? And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:

I've been hit with 480, phase to phase - luckily it was the back of my hand that brushed the buss bars.  My arm muscles spasmed, pulling my hand away and knocking me off the ladder.  Had I grabbed that bar, I wouldn't be here typing.

[ChadTower]

I have been calling around to electricians all damn week trying to get one out to run a new circuit in my basement.  Not one has freakin' called back.  That is always my major frustration with small jobs like this - it's not a $1000 job so the electricians aren't interested in it.

Geesh, after all week of calling around, finally got a decent rep electrician to agree to come out on monday to do this job.  Dude wants to do it at 7am on new year's eve, though.     Hopefully this isn't going to cost me hundreds... one line, through one open framed wall, with 3-4 quad boxes (depending on what the code is regarding proximity of them).  As close to the breaker box as could be.

[MaximRecoil]

Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.

The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.

What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?

A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.

No, I don't keep missing that. You think I am missing that because you are either not reading what I've typed or you are failing to comprehend what I've typed. How many times do I have to say that I'm already planning to do it the correct way before it sinks in? Read reply #19 again.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm having trouble deciding who the bigger moran is ... PBJ for spouting off with 0% understanding of how electricity works or Maxim for spouting off about how easy it is when he is the one who asked the question in the first place and has pretty much ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points raised and thinks that we are all missing his comptence.

When I was a kid, my family moved to a new city and rented a house for a year. The owner had done his own wiring. At the end of the year, we moved to a new house. 3 weeks later the house burned to the ground due to .... bad wiring.

In properties that I have owned myself, I have run all my own power and I have had a licensed electrician come in and inspect/double-check for me.  For stuff where I am not 100% comfortable, I have a pro come in.

My family is worth it.

Rule 1: Know the code. If you don't know the code, look it up.
Rule 2: Know your homeowner's policy.
Rule 3: If you have to ask on a forum like this, chances are that you haven't satisfied 1 or 2.

[ChadTower]

I just pay someone that knows.  I'll eff around with a lot of things... house wiring is not one of them.  Plus I like my homeowner's insurance.

[MaximRecoil]

Does the circuit daisy-chain to any other circuits upstream or downstream?

Yes.

Is it back-fed anywhere?

No.

Are you using the right gauge wire for the amperage?

Yes (12 AWG).

Are you going to follow the proper pathway for the wiring as required by code? Did the previous installer? Has the code changed since it was installed so that you can't follow the existing pathway?

I'm going to follow the pathway of the existing wiring. Given that, these questions are irrelevant, because with regard to the code-correctness of the pathway, that status doesn't change whether I replace the wiring or do nothing.

Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?

Again, nothing is changing here except for the fact that there will now be a ground wire running from the ground screw on the new outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box.  

Are you ever going to sell the house?

No.

It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.

If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.

Anything else is just damned foolish.

--- saint

You could issue a similar warning to someone planning to change their own fuse.

And BTW, adding a ground wire is very minor as far as "modifications" go.

[MaximRecoil]

I'm having trouble deciding who the bigger moran is ... PBJ for spouting off with 0% understanding of how electricity works or Maxim for spouting off about how easy it is when he is the one who asked the question in the first place and has pretty much ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points raised and thinks that we are all missing his comptence.

Or CheffoJeffo, who has just established himself as a "moron".

Now, regarding the question I asked in the OP:

rather than replacing the entire run of wire with 3-conductor wire or adding an additional full-length ground wire back to the breaker box?

Note that I am already well aware of the "correct" way of doing it, you know, since I described it right there in the OP.

Now, from my infamous "reply #19" which no one seems to be able to read:

In any event, I'm going to wire the new outlets correctly, with new 3-conductor wire from the hardware store, made for the task (hot to circuit breaker, neutral and ground to the common bus bar).

Here I establish that I plan go with the option I described in the OP. Here is the quote again:

rather than replacing the entire run of wire with 3-conductor wire or adding an additional full-length ground wire back to the breaker box?

So what I have been saying is easy, is not what I originally asked about. Follow that do you?

Oh, and about the "ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points" claim that only exists in your fantasy world, here are some more quotes for you:

Read the first part of your first post. And even after I agreed on the correct way to do it

Now, some people have pointed out reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea, due to the physical differences between the two wiring methods, and that's fine—I agree, and plan to do it the standard, approved, correct, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, way. I said as much in reply #19.

People have been preaching to the choir since "reply #19". The only thing I disagree with is that an electrician is necessary to add a ground wire from the outlet to the bus bar.

[CheffoJeffo]

People have been preaching to the choir since "reply #19". The only thing I disagree with is that an electrician is necessary to add a ground wire from the outlet to the bus bar.

What does your local code say ? Your homeowners policy ?

If your plans are cool with both of those, then my objections are removed (hey, I run my own wiring!). You haven't indicated, however, that this is the case.

This is just another case of someone looking for advice over the Innernets, then ignoring the advice that they don't like.

Maxim is the new USSE.

[saint]

I'm going to follow the pathway of the existing wiring. Given that, these questions are irrelevant, because with regard to the code-correctness of the pathway, that status doesn't change whether I replace the wiring or do nothing.

Heh. I work for the school system locally. We have schools that are reasonably old that we can occupy with students. However, if we shut them down, we cannot reopen them later without renovation because the code has changed. Codes and standards change. Just because it was acceptable when your house was built doesn't mean it is now. For instance, is it even allowed to install 2-prong outlets anymore in new construction? The status can very well change when you replace the wiring if code has changed. Have you checked?

Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?

Again, nothing is changing here except for the fact that there will now be a ground wire running from the ground screw on the new outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box. 

You're pulling out old wiring and installing new wiring, or at the least you're adding an additional wire pull to the existing wiring. That's a change to the infrastructure. I'd be interested to see what your local applicable government agency thinks as to whether or not you're making a change requiring a permit.

Are you ever going to sell the house?

No.

Heh. OK.

It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.

If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.

Anything else is just damned foolish.

--- saint

You could issue a similar warning to someone planning to change their own fuse.

No. Perhaps if we were discussing replacing an outlet with an identical outlet. You're running new wire inside the walls of your house. I deal with low voltage wiring all the time in my job. I have to satisfy the fire marshall and ensure my vendors follow local and state regulations. I cannot believe that low voltage cabling has a higher requirement for oversight than high voltage.

Here - simple question. Yes or no. *Have* you checked with your local government office to see if there are any requirements you have to follow before you add a simple ground wire?

I notice you didn't answer the question about whether or not your insurance will honor your coverage if you do your own wiring and don't have it professionally inspected. Have you checked with your homeowner's insurance company?

  -- if you haven't called your local government agency and your insurance company maybe you should consider it. You don't have to tell us you did it. Good luck!

[MaximRecoil]

Heh. I work for the school system locally. We have schools that are reasonably old that we can occupy with students. However, if we shut them down, we cannot reopen them later without renovation because the code has changed. Codes and standards change. Just because it was acceptable when your house was built doesn't mean it is now. For instance, is it even allowed to install 2-prong outlets anymore in new construction? The status can very well change when you replace the wiring if code has changed. Have you checked?

I understand that. But what I was saying is, that if the code has changed since my existing wiring was installed, then the pathway is against the code now even if I do nothing. Replacing the wire or adding a ground wire along the same pathway doesn't change anything with respect to the code-correctness of the pathway. If it is wrong now, it will be wrong to the same degree after replacing the wire. If it is right now, it will also be right when the wire is replaced.

Besides, it is very unlikely that there is anything wrong with the pathway. We are talking about 3 outlets daisy-chained in parallel on the first floor whose wiring only goes a few inches in the wall before it goes through the floor/basement ceiling, and runs along a clear path along the basement ceiling to the breaker box, which is about 20 feet from the furthest of the 3 outlets.   

And I must say, I'm surprised at the number of bureaucrats on this thread.

[Ed_McCarron]

And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:

Nah, I lose on rule #2.

Reproduction
   Out of the gene pool: dead or sterile.

Excellence
   Astounding misapplication of judgment.

Self-Selection
   Cause one's own demise.

Maturity
   Capable of sound judgment.

Veracity
   The event must be true.

I didn't make a bad judgement call - it was an accident (and a preventable one, at that).

Think you'd be running on all cylinders, tho.

[bishmasterb]

I just installed a new AC outlet junction box myself tonight for a new game cabinet I'm putting in the gameroom. And yes, it met code...because there is no code where I live.   

[MaximRecoil]

And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:

Nah, I lose on rule #2.

Reproduction
   Out of the gene pool: dead or sterile.

Excellence
   Astounding misapplication of judgment.

Self-Selection
   Cause one's own demise.

Maturity
   Capable of sound judgment.

Veracity
   The event must be true.

I didn't make a bad judgement call - it was an accident (and a preventable one, at that).

So working on a ladder with your hand close to live current is what? A case of good judgment?   

Think you'd be running on all cylinders, tho.

Yes, because running a ground wire from the ground screw on the outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box, is clearly a case of "astounding misapplication of judgment" (lol). Also, with the main breaker off, it is highly likely to make me "dead or sterile" (lol). That's because electricity is magical and mystical, with no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever. I don't need a REAL Electrician™, I need a wizard.

[Ed_McCarron]

So working on a ladder with your hand close to live current is what? A case of good judgment?

Its a case of doing something you've been trained to do.

A firefighter is trained to go into a burning house to pull people out.  Good or bad judgement on his part?

[ChadTower]

Guys, this little one is not worth the effort. Come, let me get you something.

[saint]

I understand that. But what I was saying is, that if the code has changed since my existing wiring was installed, then the pathway is against the code now even if I do nothing. Replacing the wire or adding a ground wire along the same pathway doesn't change anything with respect to the code-correctness of the pathway. If it is wrong now, it will be wrong to the same degree after replacing the wire. If it is right now, it will also be right when the wire is replaced.

No, at least not as far as legal liability and such go. Leaving it as is with the older code standards is fine. Upgrading it without upgrading to the newer code standards is not. That's why we can continue to occupy older schools, but once we shut them down we can't reopen them without renovations.

And I must say, I'm surprised at the number of bureaucrats on this thread.

Heh. You asked the questions. You know, if essentially everyone who responds to you is giving you advice you don't agree with, then maybe it's you who isn't looking at it clearly? Nah.... probably not. 

Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?

[Ed_McCarron]

Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?

Saint hit the nail on the head.

Forget us, why don't you go ask your local electrical inspector if its a good idea.

[ChadTower]

I am having trouble figuring out why he asked the question to begin with. 

[Kevin Mullins]

Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?

[Zakk]

Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?

My guess is not, since he thinks that grounds are just the same bus bar on the panel as the neutrals.  My guess is his neutrals are grounded to the water pipes, with no independent path to ground.  What he doesn't get is redundancy.  The second ground wire is supposed to come into play if something happens to the neutral wire (say it is severed or shorted).  The ground wire gives a secondary, independent path to ground (as opposed to through your hand and out the bottom of your feet).  On my bureaucratic breaker panel, there  is a grounded bar for the neutral (white) wire and a second common bar, for a second dedicated ground.  I assume there is two rods in the ground somewhere outside, as there are two huge stranded copper leads coming into the box.  I assume because I'm not an electrician.  We might as well continue to talk as if he's not here, as he's not listening anyway.  He's likely gone and purchased the cheater idiot-box ground plug (from now on known as the "pbj easy-as-cheap box" so that he can safely plug in his freezer, ice maker, 52" tv and stereo in there (of course on one of those huge power bars that have those pesky 3rd prong!).  Also I won't mention that we're all advising him to check with a government inspector, not because we're all just in love with the government, but that it's a potentially life-risking alteration he's thinking of making, even if he doesn't see it that way.

[MaximRecoil]

Its a case of doing something you've been trained to do.

A firefighter is trained to go into a burning house to pull people out.  Good or bad judgement on his part?

Simply turning an out-of-control fire off isn't an option, and in the meantime, people's lives are in immediate danger. This is hardly analogous to working around electricity.

No, at least not as far as legal liability and such go. Leaving it as is with the older code standards is fine. Upgrading it without upgrading to the newer code standards is not. That's why we can continue to occupy older schools, but once we shut them down we can't reopen them without renovations.

And that is of course, logically ridiculous, but a typical case of bureaucracy.

Heh. You asked the questions. You know, if essentially everyone who responds to you is giving you advice you don't agree with, then maybe it's you who isn't looking at it clearly? Nah.... probably not. 

Where did I ask about codes/red tape? I asked strictly about an alternate method of wiring, a method that does work and that some people (including some electricians) do use. I made it clear that I decided not to go with the alternate method in reply #19.

Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?

No, but then, I wouldn't be doing anything until at least spring anyway (cutting the power to work on something would make it cold in here pretty quickly).

I am having trouble figuring out why he asked the question to begin with. 

That's because you clearly haven't been paying attention.

Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?

Yes.

My guess is not, since he thinks that grounds are just the same bus bar on the panel as the neutrals.

Some breaker panels have 2 bus bars, one for neutral and one for ground. Others only have one, in which case, both the neutral and ground go there. Either case is the same result, as you will get continuity between neutral and ground regardless. You get redundancy do to the physical separation of the neutral and ground wires all the way to the breaker box, so the neutral can break anywhere along that line with the ground wire remaining intact.

He's likely gone and purchased the cheater idiot-box ground plug (from now on known as the "pbj easy-as-cheap box"

Yes, that's very likely, especially since I'm the only one that actually corrected "PBJ" on this thread regarding his faulty reasoning.

BTW, my major appliances are already on 3-prong outlets, and in some cases, are wired for 220, and have been for years.

[Zakk]

Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question? Seriously brother, look at you, you're arguing with 5 or 6 different people in one post  (AGAIN).  Do you ever get the feeling that you're doing ANYTHING wrong?  I didn't post here to argue with you, I tried to be helpful.  I don't care to look, but I can imagine that you have argued points with every single person that tried to help you.  You know what?  Good luck with your cheater box. Have a great day, and I sincerely hope you don't someday kill someone with your shortcut cheap-as-free "solutions". 

[ChadTower]

Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?

Encore une fois.  Je ne le comprends pas.  Il suce a coup sur.   

[MaximRecoil]

Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?

You obviously have reading difficulties. Start with the elusive "reply #19".

Seriously brother, look at you, you're arguing with 5 or 6 different people in one post  (AGAIN).

The only thing I'm arguing about is the need for an electrician, who would do it the same way I would.

Do you ever get the feeling that you're doing ANYTHING wrong?  I didn't post here to argue with you, I tried to be helpful.  I don't care to look, but I can imagine that you have argued points with every single person that tried to help you.  You know what?  Good luck with your cheater box.

"Cheater box"? This is more evidence of your reading difficulties. Type in the secret code to reveal the ethereal and esoteric "reply #19".

Have a great day, and I sincerely hope you don't someday kill someone with your shortcut cheap-as-free "solutions". 

What "shortcut"? Wiring correctly is now considered a "shortcut"?

[MaximRecoil]

Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?

Encore une fois.  Je ne le comprends pas.  Il suce a coup sur.   

Again, the original question I asked was answered to my satisfaction early on in this thread. Nothing has changed since "reply #19". I'm still planning to wire it correctly (something which I knew how to do before starting this thread, which should be clear from reading the OP), and I'm still not planning to have an electrician do it.

[ChadTower]

Please reply to this post. 

[JackTucky]

this thread is for dooshes

see Reply 18

this thread is for dooshes

see 19

--cream-filled twinkie-- is a noun

this thread is for dooshes

:slc

this thread is for dooshes

i'm trying to argue that i'm not arguing

--cream-filled twinkie-- is a noun

you can't read, but you post ok

lemonparty

this thread is for dooshes

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Ur Momz!

[MaximRecoil]

The real genius here

LOL

[JackTucky]

The real genius here

LOL

cheater box!  blow up your house!  argue!

=J

[Zakk]

You're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs.  your genius has no bounds.  Why did you turn this into a US vs YOU?  Like seriously, picking apart each line of a response and refuting each line, christ that's a major personality dysfunction.  I could see if I was attacking your precious nintendo joysticks, but I'm just a guy who has 'flipped' 20 properties, owns 10, has sat through hundreds of home inspections, and seen the results of genius do-it-yourselfers firsthand. Even with that much experience, I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19).  In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire.  A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground.  Redundancy.

What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement.  Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it?  Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing one?  How do you intend to get it in the box?  Just loosen a clamp and shove it in?  What will you do with the existing wire in the receptacle box, that will likely be live?  Did you ask your insurance company as saint has asked?? 

Do you SEEEEEEEEEEE why we kinda feel you're being stubborn and dangerous?  You stopped listening to anything past your beloved post #19 and just flipped on the argue switch.  From my point of view, what you are doing is dangerous because you simply don't know what electrical code is, or even care WHY that code exists. I don't for a minute think that you are incapable of doing  anything an electrician can do, I just worry that there are a lot of things you just don't know (just as there are things -I- don't know, even though I have seen a lot). 

Please don't pick all this apart.  Pulling out the bits you want to argue and discarding the bits you can't argue is weird. This isn't an argument.  Well I guess that's the way it turned out, but it wasn't intended as such.

[JackTucky]

Allow me

you're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs.  your genius has no bounds. 

do you read?  see 19

Why did you turn this into a US vs YOU?  Like seriously, picking apart each line of a response and refuting each line, christ that's a major personality dysfunction.  I could see if I was attacking your precious nintendo joysticks, but I'm just a guy who has 'flipped' 20 properties, owns 10, has sat through hundreds of home inspections, and seen the results

seriously, can't you read?a

of genius do-it-yourselfers firsthand...and even with that much experience, I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19).  In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire

nintendo rulez

heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire.  A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground.  Redundancy.

:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc

What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement.  Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it?  Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing on

see 19.5

e?  How do you intend to get it in the box?  Just loosen a clamp and shove it in?  What will you do with the existing wire in the box, that will likely be live?  Did you ask your insurance company as saint has asked?? 

are you inferior?

Do you SEEEEEEEEEEE why we kinda feel you're being stubborn and dangerous?  You stopped listening to anything past your beloved post #19 and just flipped on the argue switch.  From my point of view, what you are doing is dangerous because you simply don't know what electrical code is, or even care WHY that code exists. I don't for a minute think that you are incapable of doing  anything an electrician can do, I just worry that there are a lot of things you just don't know (just as there are things -I- don't know, even though I have seen a lot). 

i love nintendoz

Please don't pick all this apart.  Pulling out the bits you want to argue and discarding the bits you can't argue is weird. This isn't an argument.  Well I guess that's the way it turned out, but it wasn't intended as such.

[MaximRecoil]

You're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs.

You are making stuff up.

I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19).

Reply #19 makes no mention of a "Band-Aid fix", unless you think that wiring correctly means "Band-Aid fix".

In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire.  A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground.  Redundancy.

That has nothing to do with anything.

What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement.  Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it?

I think you missed the fact that there are already 3-prong outlets in this house for the major appliances. And yes, they were installed by an electrician years ago. They ground to the same bus bar that the neutrals do. I already told you that not all breaker boxes have two bus bars, and neither are two bus bars necessary in order to have correctly-wired 3-prong outlets.

Edit: Here is a link for you:

Note: Some boxes will have two bus bars, one for the ground wire, one for the neutral. Others will have only one bus bar for both neutral and ground.

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/homewiringbreakerbox

Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing one?

See, this indicates that you don't even understand what I'm planning to do. If you replace the wiring, you use the same breaker that the old wiring was on. Alternatively, you can just add a ground wire alongside the original run, in which case you wouldn't touch the original wiring at all, nor its breaker switch. You would simply terminate one end at the ground screw on the outlet, and the other end at the bus bar.

How do you intend to get it in the box?  Just loosen a clamp and shove it in?  What will you do with the existing wire in the receptacle box, that will likely be live?

See above.

[JackTucky]

I already said all that.

=J