Take the Game Launcher Survey

[Dave Dribin]

Now is your chance to influence the future of Game Launcher!

http://www.dribin.org/dave/game_launcher/survey/

The survey will be available until May 19.

Maybe someone with admin privileges could lock this topic and nail it to the top of the list for a week.  If not, I'll just post a reminder message every so often.

-Dave

[rampy]

*bump* I took the survey and it was great! There was all sorts of radio buttons and other fields and even a comment box at the end... I sent Dave innapropriate ascii art in the comments section. =P

...er nvr mind.

Rampy

[NIVO]

took the survey as well. Thanks Dave for the attention and wanting to further your FE. Its great that you listen to the masses for ideas and solutions. It can only get better from here.

[AlanS17]

I took the survery too.

I noticed it mentioned an couple questions on paying for it (shareware).

Are there and emulators that currently do this? If so, are they really that good that they would be worth it?

[Howard_Casto]

Yes but they aren't worth it. They are actually sub-par to the freeware alternatives.  Think bleem! and Then you'll understand.

[IIOIOOIOO]

Umm... I saw one jukebox program that was pretty decent that was shareware.

The End.

Anyone remember Bleemcast?

[Dave Dribin]

Reminder, only a few days left.  Thanks to everyone who has responded so far!  You've given me some great feedback.

-Dave

[AlanS17]

Yes but they aren't worth it. They are actually sub-par to the freeware alternatives.  Think bleem! and Then you'll understand.

That is kind of what I was figuring. If there was actually a good front-end (shareware or not) it would get noticed on this website. Since I've used virtually every front-end that I know of and none of them were shareware...

I'd have to assume that any shareware front-ends out there are so crappy that nobody even bothers to talk about them and therefore nobody else knows about them.

[Rasher2k]

Looks like somebodys noticed there a bit of a demand for good frontends and is determined to make a quick buck off it.

His time aint free you know...

[rampy]

Looks like somebodys noticed there a bit of a demand for good frontends and is determined to make a quick buck off it.

His time aint free you know...

You're losing me here... what are you trying to say ... who's the somebody? Dave? That doesn't compute.

*Shrug*
rampy

[Wade]

Dave, I'd really like to make a simple suggestion but I left it off my comment in the survey.  I don't want to retake the survey, can I just comment here or leave you a private email?

Wade

[Dave Dribin]

Dave, I'd really like to make a simple suggestion but I left it off my comment in the survey.  I don't want to retake the survey, can I just comment here or leave you a private email?

Go ahead and email me.  I don't check this website much.

-Dave

[Rasher2k]

You're losing me here... what are you trying to say ... who's the somebody? Dave? That doesn't compute.

*Shrug*
rampy

Now dont shrug it off, you've done the survey, now remember how it asks if you'd be willing to pay up to $25 to use the frontend. It used to be free, like every other front end available, and now Dave's thinking about going commercial, and you don't make zero dollars when you do that. Compute.

[rampy]

You're losing me here... what are you trying to say ... who's the somebody? Dave? That doesn't compute.

*Shrug*
rampy

Now dont shrug it off, you've done the survey, now remember how it asks if you'd be willing to pay up to $25 to use the frontend. It used to be free, like every other front end available, and now Dave's thinking about going commercial, and you don't make zero dollars when you do that. Compute.

But I'd hardly classify it as a "quick buck".  Besides you aren't operating with a full understanding/background of the situation to make that type of judgement on Dave or his motivations.  

My intent is not to try and defend Dave (he's more than capable of doing that himself if he so chooses)...

This is clearly a dialog, or a request for dialog... and it's not the first time it's come up with game launcher (see geocrawler list server archive of glaunc mailing list for details)... and there's opinions on both sides, and although I'm a pretty cheap bastage, I'd pay a reasonable amount for a *good* FE that suits my needs unequivocably...

Game Launcer is currently open source and your "free" to compile/fork/go nuts within the confines/structure of the GPL to do what you please with it...  

My understanding is that Dave's trying to get a sense as to what people would like most put in to game launcher feature wise and if they'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to pay for it, so that he can make the decision if he can balance his life/desire/needs to take the time to add that funcitonality/continue development.  That's my take, and I might be wrong IAND (i am not dave).  But i think you should wave your profiteering accusation stick elsewhere in my opinion.

I'll try and dig up an exact link so you can see what I'm referencing, basing my opinion on.

Hell, if dxlaz ends up being the end all and be all for free, maybe it becomes a moot point (unless of course your in DOS/linux environment) but that's not really the point at all. *shrug*

rampy

[rampy]

OK, no link... stupid geocrawler stopped archiving for somereason in dec 2002...  

But in my deleted folder I found the conversation I was thinking of from the mailing list... *shrug*  hope dave doesn't mind being quoted... but thought it provided good context to the "quick buck" sentiment...

### begin copy paste operation ###
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 12:21:17AM -0600, Dave Dribin wrote:
> I've been thinking about the next release of Game Launcher that has
> been "almost ready" for about 4 months now.  During this time, I have
> made three important observations that affect the future plans of GL.
>
> The first observation is that working on GL takes a fair amount of time
> to work on.  I really enjoy working on GL, but it often hard to find
> and justify adequate time to set aside.  Time is really the only thing
> holding GL development back.  There are many features and bug fixes I
> would love to work on, but they all take time, sometime lots of it.
>
> The second observation is that GL is getting little or no benefit to
> being Open Source.  When I started GL, I released the code under an
> Open Source license, specifically the GNU GPL, in the hopes that it
> would attract other developers so we could pool our efforts on one
> front-end rather than having many.  That was 3 years ago, and I have
> been the sole programmer ever since.  I have only received one small
> set of patches (of which I am grateful for!) but I haven't had the
> support I was hoping for.  I cannot say I have an answer as to why this
> is (I have theories), but the fact remains that GL has not received any
> benefit to being Open Source.
>
> The final observation is that the "donation" or "tip jar" system just
> hasn't been working.  Sure, I've gotten a few donations (of which,
> again, I am grateful for!), but it is hardly enough to really motivate
> me, unfortunately.  The grand sum total of donations is less than I
> make in 1 hour of my day-time consulting.  Of course, I enjoy working
> on GL more than my consulting, but there is only a limited amount time
> time to go around.  I have to make decisions on how I should spend my
> time and often this means leaning towards activities that pay the bills.
>
> As a result of these three observations, I am considering making Game
> Launcher a shareware program.   Hopefully a shareware model would
> encourage more people to contribute monetarily.  Assuming this actually
> works, it would justify me putting more time and effort on GL
> development.  This also has the unfortunate side affect that GL would
> no longer be Open Source.  I still believe in Open Source and use it
> everyday, but I feel it has failed for this project.
>
> Of course, the ultimate success or failure of this possible transition
> hinges on the fact that people would be willing to spend money on a
> front-end for emulators.  One of the main problems with this idea is
> that almost all software in the emulation community is free as in beer
> (i.e. no cost).  Will people actually spend money on GL, or just will
> they just say "Screw You, you greedy bastard!" and use another
> front-end?  I personally believe there is a market in the emulation
> community.  Just take a look at Oscar Spinners and the I-Pac.
>
> And this is where I turn the floor over to you, the users of GL, for
> your thoughts on this matter.  Are my observations correct?  Would
> people actually pay money for shareware?  Am I completely off the rails?
>
> Thanks for listening (and hopefully responding),
>
> -Dave
>

[Rasher2k]

Well I didn't quite come out and say "screw you, you greedy bastard".

The Mame team, who provide the real guts behind the glitter, ask for nothing. It is a hobby for them, you could say they are doing it out of their love for the classics, and it benefits everyone. I believe that building a frontend should be approached in the same manner; a hobby. It's not like it needs* a production team and has to be released by a certain time. Like mame, it gets there when it gets there, and when it does it'll be greatly appreciated by the community.

*Mame is a more organised unit however (apparently) with multiple authors (ir)regularly contributing elements to it. With the amount of frontend programmers floating around at the moment, rounding up an enthusiastic team for a new organised project might achieve spectacular results. Coders have just got to realise that in the long run it would produce better results. They all want it personalized/ this feature/ that feature, but as a team it can all be done and more!  

Damn, I gotta get out of essay mode. What were we talking about again?

[Dave Dribin]

OK, no link... stupid geocrawler stopped archiving for somereason in dec 2002...  

But in my deleted folder I found the conversation I was thinking of from the mailing list... *shrug*  hope dave doesn't mind being quoted... but thought it provided good context to the "quick buck" sentiment...

Nope, I don't mind.  I''ve come to realize that anything I say on the Internet is public knowledge, basically forever.  Just do a search for my name in groups.google.com.  Thanks to Google, I now have "proof" I was using Linux in 1992!  Damn, that makes me feel old...

-Dave

[jakejake28]

i love the GL front-end, i run it w/ my mame, genesis, and super nes emulators and it is great. i read the previous post regarding making it shareware. not to chastise, but since GL is one of many front-ends, most of which are free, it is not likely to pay for a software when an alternative, albeit not as good as GL, sits for download for free. you would lose many of the people that currently se GL, and that might lead to the halt of GL coding. that would suck!

[IIOIOOIOO]

Dave. Do like the guy from Daphne. Offer pay-for-play one-on-one tech support to your users, as an alternative to posting you a note, and hoping that you happen to have time/temperament to answer it. You should email him and ask him how he's done with it.

[Frostillicus]

i love the GL front-end, i run it w/ my mame, genesis, and super nes emulators and it is great. i read the previous post regarding making it shareware. not to chastise, but since GL is one of many front-ends, most of which are free, it is not likely to pay for a software when an alternative, albeit not as good as GL, sits for download for free. you would lose many of the people that currently se GL, and that might lead to the halt of GL coding. that would suck!

If there was a front-end out there that solved all my..um...front-end related problems I'd gladly pay ~20 bucks for it

[Howard_Casto]

Here's my take on the whole money issue and I hope no one (especially Dave as he is every fe programmer's hero.)  takes it personally.  

Long story short.... would people pay for a front end?  Yes.

Would Dos users pay for a dos version of gamelauncher? Yes.  

Would Windows users pay for the windows version of gamelauncher (as it is now)?  Highly Unlikely.  


Gamelauncher is stable, does it's job well, supports any command line based emu and has a nice interface.  

Unfortunately that was the minimum feature list about 2 years ago.  Users who are determined to have a nice interface now expect more from a windows fe.  At least partial skinnability and other artwork elements would have to be added for it to be up to speed with the freeware alternatives.  At least if you wanted people to actually pay money for it.  The only successful commercial front end is cyberpunk's jukebox program.  It didn't catch on until a ton of features and full skinability was added. Even now it isn't super successful.    

Now there is a second type of user that simply wants a fe that displays a nice clean list that they can select from.  That describes gamelauncher perfectly, but unfortunately all of the more "complicated" front end's out there are fully skinnable, meaning that a skin closely resembling the gamelauncher layout can be made for it.   I mean no disrespect by that comment, I'm only stating the obvious.  

In closing I don't think that the game launcher fe could be sold simply because it doesn't do it "all".  For that matter I don't think ANY of the current front ends out there could be sold because they are all flawed in some way (mine included).  Be it lack of features, lack of stability, graphical ugliness, or a difficult setup, none of them seem to be ready to go commercial.  

Well, I'm sure some COULD but they wouldn't be that successful.  


Again, just putting in my 2 cents.  I just hate to see a hobby program go commercial as it often alienates the very users that made it popular enough to go commercial.

[Dave Dribin]

Ok, I'm gonna keep the survey up until May 27th.  I've been too lazy to take it down and results have still been coming in.

BTW, the whole point of the survey is so I *know* what users want.  Programmers have a very bad history of guessing incorrectly on what users actually want.  This whole shareware thing is quite controversial, but I expected that.

-Dave

[AlanS17]

Would it be possible to see some real-time results for this survey? I'm curious to know what other people think.

[Odonadon]

Would Windows users pay for the windows version of gamelauncher (as it is now)?  Highly Unlikely.  


Gamelauncher is stable, does it's job well, supports any command line based emu and has a nice interface.  

Unfortunately that was the minimum feature list about 2 years ago.  Users who are determined to have a nice interface now expect more from a windows fe.  At least partial skinnability and other artwork elements would have to be added for it to be up to speed with the freeware alternatives.  At least if you wanted people to actually pay money for it.  The only successful commercial front end is cyberpunk's jukebox program.  It didn't catch on until a ton of features and full skinability was added. Even now it isn't super successful.    

Now there is a second type of user that simply wants a fe that displays a nice clean list that they can select from.  That describes gamelauncher perfectly, but unfortunately all of the more "complicated" front end's out there are fully skinnable, meaning that a skin closely resembling the gamelauncher layout can be made for it.   I mean no disrespect by that comment, I'm only stating the obvious.  

I agree with Howard.  I've been having far too many ridiculous "challenges" with GL in Windows to want to pay for it.  It's only my laziness that's prevented me from downloading Lazarus and using it.  There are a number of valid points in this thread - ZSNES is free, Gens is free, MAME is free, who would pay for GL?  And don't get me started on the ethics of moving from open source to closed source.

I hope the survey shows you, Dave, that we users aren't willing to pay for it, no matter what the price

Odonadon

[Dave Dribin]

Would it be possible to see some real-time results for this survey? I'm curious to know what other people think.

Sorry, the results aren't gonna be made public.

-Dave

[AlanS17]

Would it be possible to see some real-time results for this survey? I'm curious to know what other people think.

Sorry, the results aren't gonna be made public.

-Dave

May I ask why they won't be public? I think people around here would be curious to know what all these questions are leading up to. (And I know we wouldn't want an answer like "You'll find out when the new fe is released.") My curiosity always gets the better of me.

Is it sensitive because of the shareware issue and you don't want people to see how each other responded? I don't mind if you show anybody else my results. I doubt anybody else cares, either.

[Dave Dribin]

May I ask why they won't be public? I think people around here would be curious to know what all these questions are leading up to. (And I know we wouldn't want an answer like "You'll find out when the new fe is released.") My curiosity always gets the better of me.

Is it sensitive because of the shareware issue and you don't want people to see how each other responded? I don't mind if you show anybody else my results. I doubt anybody else cares, either.

A couple reasons.  1) It's too much work for me to format the results for public consumption.  I've got a quick and dirty Perl script, but the result is not pretty.  My time is better spent elsewhere than beautifying the results.  2) I can only see trouble by making the results public.  Too much "you didn't listen to the survey" or "how could you do that when x number of people said this".  The bottom line is the results are meant to help me make future decisions, and nothing else.

-Dave

[Dave Dribin]

Ok, thanks everyone!  I got lots of great feedback.  To the powers that be, this topic may be unstuck.

-Dave