Further basement work...

[myntik1]

**the following rant is sort of off topic, feel free to skip this post**

No work was done in the days leading up to or after X-Mas.  It's our first year in our new house so everyone had to come over.  I was told to clean up the basement or face her wrath.  My brother-in-law came over and was guilted into offering his help on my basement.  I refused his help.  At times I'm stubborn and this is one of those times.  2 years ago I went over to his house countless days to help him build a 3 season porch and to help him build a frame around his deck.  In the past we've loaned him a car for two weeks, and we've picked one of his daughters up from daycare numerous times.  In the six months since we've been here he's never offered to help paint, move a chair anything.  And the coup de grace - the main reason we're in a rush to do the basement is HIS other daughter wants to live with us.  When that happens space will be at a premium so the basement will go from storage to an office and a playroom. His daughter can't stand her stepfather who relocated them to TX, so she wants to come back to MA.  My sister-in-law treats her like dirt (since she's from a previous marriage) so she doesn't want to live with them.  Do I want to take on a rebellious teen? Not exactly, but where I come from family comes first.  So we extended an offer for her to live with us. She was going to come down around X-MAS, but her mom and stepdad said she would have to finish out the yr down there  So unless she changes her mind she'll come up to stay with us in June.  So after all I've done for this clown he has to be guilted into it by their father to offer to help me with my basement. I turned down his offer and now I'm the bunghole.  I would rather hire someone from craigslist to come help me.  If I give you a ride I don't expect you to return the favor.  If I go to your house every other day for 3 months after work and help you improve your house - I'm expecting you to at least offer when it's my turn.

On a side note, I get to work this morning and my boss tells me thjat since I've put in a ridiculous amount of hours in the last few weeks I should go home.  I figure I'll be able to put in a 4-5 hours on my basement and make some headway.  20 minutes in and my little helper (my 2 yr old) comes down stairs and knocks over a can of drylock.  Before I even have a chance to get upset he says he wants to fix things like daddy.  He's the reason I work like a dog 6 days a week.

Sorry for the senselesss rant, I just had to get it off my chest.  Hopefully, during nap time I can make some progress and get my basement thread started.

[ChadTower]

Hey, at least that spot on the floor has about 45 coats of Drylok on it now.

I've found that here in MA 95% of the time when you help someone with something as you've described they have no intention of ever returning the favor.  I've also found taht most of the time even if they offer they don't want to actually do it, it's all for show.  Wasn't like that back home but I've learned over time not to expect much from people here even when I'm in the middle of helping them.  I actually had one guy yell at me that I wasn't doing enough when I was doing nearly all of the work helping him move from one apt to the other.  This is while I'm moving his 27" tv up to the third floor and he's sitting on the stairs.  Keep in mind I barely knew the guy, he was just a local message board guy that needed some help, so I showed up.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I've found that here in MA 95% of the time when you help someone with something as you've described they have no intention of ever returning the favor.

Well, I don't know what part of MA you live in (Chadville, maybe?), but my experience here has been quite the opposite. Over the years here I've had *dozens* of people offer to help me with various things, and not-a-one asked for anything in return. Recently, I've had people *we just met* offer to come over and help strip wallpaper in our new home!! That's, by far, not a fun thing to do...and they've asked for nothing in return. Anyone I've ever helped here has been more than happy to return the favor, as, for example, they've helped us move several times without complaining. (and we had a TON of ---Cleveland steamer---)

Anyhow, I just don't want people to think you speak for all of Massachusetts. Jeez.

[ChadTower]

I've experienced this while living in Salem, North Andover, Plainville, and Amherst... so that's a pretty solid cross section of the state.  People are very aloof here and there is little sense of community compared to other places I've lived.

[polaris]

you should move to where mr c lives, next door maybe

[JackTucky]

you should move to where mr c lives, next door maybe

This is the best idea yet.

dooshes in NJ didn't help much either. 

=J

[tommy]

I've found that here in MA 95% of the time when you help someone with something as you've described they have no intention of ever returning the favor.

Well, I don't know what part of MA you live in (Chadville, maybe?), but my experience here has been quite the opposite. Over the years here I've had *dozens* of people offer to help me with various things, and not-a-one asked for anything in return. Recently, I've had people *we just met* offer to come over and help strip wallpaper in our new home!! That's, by far, not a fun thing to do...and they've asked for nothing in return. Anyone I've ever helped here has been more than happy to return the favor, as, for example, they've helped us move several times without complaining. (and we had a TON of ---Cleveland steamer---)

Anyhow, I just don't want people to think you speak for all of Massachusetts. Jeez.

You can't make general statements like that. There are good, decent people all over the place who are willing to return the favor just as there are ungrateful people who would not help you out in return not matter where you go.

[Jdurg]

Ahhhhhhh...... NJ.  Whenever I made the trip from SE Connecticut to SE Pennsylvania, I always knew I was in Jersey when the traffic came to a standstill and the odor of rotten poo filled the air.  Granted, that was just the Newark area and the Jersey Turnpike, but still, the smell will never leave my mind.

[tommy]

That must have been PDB's house you just passed. 

[Jdurg]

That must have been PDB's house you just passed. 

 

[ChadTower]

There is a reason when someone says "I'm from Jersey" the next question is "which exit".

I look at it like this... when my wife was in a bad car accident right in front of our house, the whole neighborhood came out to gawk at her being strapped to a board and put in the ambulance.  Not one of those people ever asked about her after that.  One person came by later but only to ask if she had any extra painkillers. 

Where I grew up half of those people would have followed her to the hospital and the other half would have been home waiting for those ones to call.

[myntik1]

In my case it's her family and not a Mass thing.  I've never met a bigger group of self-centered people.  Every now and then she reverts back to her upbringing even though she realizes that's a shortcoming of her clan.  A couple of years ago for X-Mas her sister bought their 5 yr niece a mini fender guitar (not a knockoff), an amp, and sprung for a years worth of guitar lessons.  A couple of months later when she found out her niece stopped taking lessons she flipped and started yelling at the child during Easter dinner.  She's 5, when I was 5 I wanted a pony, I'm sure glad I didn't have a relative with deep pockets to get me one.

Anyway the old lady is visiting some friends for a couple of days in the middle of the month.  I seize the opportunity to request some vacation time and post an ad on craigslist for a general laborer.  I'm not looking for Bob Villa, just someone I can pay some cash to give me a hand 1 -2 nights a week and then 2 full days while they're gone..  I have a bunch of buddy's who can help me out here and there but I feel bad asking them to do a project this time consuming.  We're all in the same boat with crazy jobs and kids at home.  So I tell the old lady I posted an ad to get someone to come over. Once again I'm in the dog house because I'm willing to pay someone and not use her brother's help.  Someone coming over for an hour or 2 here and there aren't that much a help.  If I know I can count on someone to come over then I know some real progress can be made.

[ChadTower]

If I know I can count on someone to come over then I know some real progress can be made.

That's the key... you need someone that can fit to your limited schedule and is going to show up and do more than complain about the temperature of the coffee.  You are willing to pay for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

I'm totally psyched to have a real electronics workbench setup now... I had all the equipment before but had so little access to good outlets that I had to constantly plug and unplug and jury rig stuff to get it powered.  Yesterday I spent two hours organizing and setting up logically grouped power strips so I could flick certain groups of equipment on and off with one button... so much better. 

No more making sure my feet are off the concrete floor before touching a device under power!   

[myntik1]

The sad thing is I'm not getting the home arcade/slash mantown I want.  I would kill to have an electronics workbench or even a place to work on my games besides my grungy basement. When all is said and done I might be able to eek out a spot for 4 games, the juke and a kegerator. 

If the basement work looks good I might tackle my screened in porch with the person I hire.  If I can put up some walls,windows, siding and heat  in there we can use that for an office and free up some basement space.  When looking for a house I've seen way too many half-arsed jobs.  I would rather pay someone to do a good/great job then save a few bucks and do it sloppy.  My basement is my big project.  I'm not adding plumbing or anything, just sectioning off a couple of rooms, drywalling them and putting down a carpet.  If this goes well then I may tackle the porch.

[ChadTower]

If you're willing to be patient about it, once you learn the skills, you should be able to bang out that basement without a lot of trouble.  It took me months of one hour sessions to get stick framing down.  Now that I have some reasonable speed techniques down I can get stuff done pretty efficiently.  That framing around the windows I did saturday would have taken me three days before because I just didn't have the techniques down.  I should say I do have the advantage of a bone dry basement.  It's actually dusty down there now that I've sealed half the walls.

[myntik1]

So I check my home email address this morning to find that I have about 30 emails from people who want to pick up some cash helping me with my basement.  I thought I was going to get 5 or 6 and narrow the list from there.  Then I get an email from a girl I work with who also lives down the street from me.  I had a training class with her a few months ago and she raved about the job her boyfriend did on their basement.  She says that this is the slow time for her boyfriend, he does siding full-time, but he used to do framing and drywall.  So I explain to him that I have a small basement.  I’m framing it, putting in a couple of closets, putting up some drywall.  No plumbing and I’m not putting in a ceiling yet. I’m looking for someone to help me do it after work.  I explain that it’s a low pressure atmosphere.  I expect work to get done, but I’m not a slave driver.  He says that he’ll be more than happy to help me for 25/hr.  I was thinking in the 10-15 under the table range especially since I'm providing the tools. Thanks buddy, but no thanks.  If I didn’t have project OCD I would already be halfway done with this job.  At times I agonize over little decisions and wonder if cutting a corner is going to have catastrophic effects.  For instance I had to make sure every single pinhole in my concrete walls was covered with drywall. And to add to my OCD when we were looking for houses I saw so many houses with shoddy work done to them and I can't stand it.  When I moved into my house I had to remove wallpaper and paint every room.  I did a sloppy job in the last room and everyday I have to fight the urge to primer and paint the walls again.  Everytime I walk into the room my eyes immediately go to the couple of blemishes.

[ChadTower]

$25/hr doesn't seem that bad for someone who can work quickly and do quality work.  It is better to pay $100 for four hours from someone who can do the same as the $15/hr person can do in seven hours.

Then again, having experienced this doing landscaping as a teenager, working for someone with that level of OCD is a major headache.  Nothing is ever good enough - they actively seek out flaws even when those flaws are of no consequence.  I figure you are exaggerating but goddam - every pinhole in a poured concrete wall that is going to be hidden anyway?

[myntik1]

the good thing is it's only with work I've done.  I can accept less than stellar work from other people, but I'm overly critical with my work. 

and because it's hidden and I fear mold, I started to agonize over it.  I started asking myself why i was going to let another couple of hours of work weigh on my mind.  So I went back to the store and got another can of drylok to cover up the pinholes

[ChadTower]

Drilok (I can never remember that dumb spelling) doesn't cover that much anyway... takes a lot of cans to do a whole basement.

[myntik1]

Chad I'm in the western part of the state, so is 25/hr the going rate for an unlicensed guy to do work on the side.  I can understand if it's tile work, plumbing or electrical but I'm talking general construction here.

[ChadTower]

Not sure what the going rate is out there.  Where I live you have to pay people a good amount to get them to do anything.  Did you propose a lower rate?  I'd be likely to ask for $25 if I was willing to work for $20 and walk at $15.

[shardian]

If he's just a vinyl siding laborer, then $25 is probably a raise for him. Still, it's side work so he can charge whatever he wants. I can't judge him since I feel like a criminal for the rates I get paid on flat rate sidework. 

You would probably get a better price if you just offered a flat rate and that they do all the work. Then you can pay half advance, and then spend your time inspecting work and making sure they are doing things right. People work much faster and more efficient when they work flat rate. And if they ---fudgesicle--- up, they have to fix it on their own time technically.

[ChadTower]

I'd definitely keep in mind that using someone else carries all sorts of issues that doing it yourself doesn't... if permits need to be pulled, he isn't going to be doing that.  If inspections must be had, he won't have them done... etc etc.  A good amount of the price of a solid pro is knowlege of local codes and the ability to get permits/inspections done in a timely manner.  That may be more important here in MA than it is in other states - we need a permit to flush the toilet more than once in a sitting.

[shardian]

Dude, you've really started to get at me with all of this permit crap, so I had to break down and do my research. I am only subject to the county here. The only thing they care about for new development is zoning, erosion control, and flood plane stuff. For renovations, the only care about changes to soil and grade changes for erosion and run-off reasons.

I can do whatever the hell I want all on my own if I feel qualified. As to homeowners insurance, I don't think there is anything in there that specifically states that I can't personally do the work. I'll double check for sure now that I know what I am looking for. It doesn't really matter though since building permits aren't legally required, and everything is being done according to code. Luckily, I have access to the entire catalogue of national fire codes right here at work. NFC 70E is the national electrical standard.

Besides, if doing your own home renovations was so "illegal" as Chad makes it seem, why do stores sell DIY books, eh?

[ChadTower]

The guys who came to my house monday had to pull a permit to do that work.  I had to pull a permit to have my shed built and the damn approval process took months until I finally just said eff it and scaled it down to the biggest nonpermitted size.  I'll have to get other permits for any other electrical work I have done down there and would have to have a couple more if I were putting in a bedroom.  I may end up having to get one or two since a bathroom is in the plans.

It's all about what state you live in.  MA is brutal on fees and permits.  So is RI.  Little blue states... duh.

This guy is in MA which is why I mentioned it.

[shardian]

The guys who came to my house monday had to pull a permit to do that work.  I had to pull a permit to have my shed built and the damn approval process took months until I finally just said eff it and scaled it down to the biggest nonpermitted size.  I'll have to get other permits for any other electrical work I have done down there and would have to have a couple more if I were putting in a bedroom.  I may end up having to get one or two since a bathroom is in the plans.

It's all about what state you live in.  MA is brutal on fees and permits.  So is RI.  Little blue states... duh.

This guy is in MA which is why I mentioned it.

I could build a building to fit two RV's in it if I wanted to all without a permit. 

[ChadTower]

The dumbest part is that my town has one building inspector that is barely ever availble to homeowners.  I know for a fact that he doesn't bother to inspect the work of many known local companies - the guys monday told me as much.  Apparently he trusts their company's work and simply signs off on small jobs like mine rather than take the time to come out and look.  If I had done that through someone else I'd be waiting a couple of months before I could close up the wall.

[billf]

I can do whatever the hell I want all on my own if I feel qualified. As to homeowners insurance, I don't think there is anything in there that specifically states that I can't personally do the work. I'll double check for sure now that I know what I am looking for. It doesn't really matter though since building permits aren't legally required, and everything is being done according to code.

Building permits aren't legally required???  Whoa, note to self - do not move to WV!  Definitely don't want to move into a house wired/built/plumbed by Goober without any checks by appropriately knowledgeable people.

Around here you can generally do most any work yourself, provided you pull the appropriate permits (professionals must also), then get the work inspected by the city inspector (which is part of the permit process).

[shardian]

Apparently he trusts their company's work and simply signs off on small jobs like mine rather than take the time to come out and look.

That means you got a good contractor. Stick with that guy. Handshake agreements happen quite a bit in the contracting field when dealing with a company with a solid reputation.

[ChadTower]

That means you got a good contractor. Stick with that guy. Handshake agreements happen quite a bit in the contracting field when dealing with a company with a solid reputation.

Yep - I'm not an expert but I know decent work when I see it.  These guys did good work - and I asked them to come out first thing on New Year's Eve (I had the day off).  They showed up at 7:15AM and were showing me the results at 8:45.  That's good stuff.  Thumbs up on these guys.

[myntik1]

unfortunately building codes are the reason I'm not totally hiring the job out.  I've debated several times about taking out a loan to cover my basement's simple remodel (realistically under 8k).  But since I have a 60 year old house with crazy duct work. I think an inspector might have an issue with 7 foot ceilings and my duct work that's only 5'9 in certain places. I hit my head all of the time and I'm only 5'11.  You would figure by now i know where the low spots are  So I figured I would do this w/o building permits.  I know it might be a hassle when I go to sell the house, but I'll have permits for the electrical and it'll be sold as a partially finished basement. W/o being able to make the money back on the back end it's not really worth tossing 10+ thousand down there. So that's why I'm trying to keep the costs low.

[shardian]

I can do whatever the hell I want all on my own if I feel qualified. As to homeowners insurance, I don't think there is anything in there that specifically states that I can't personally do the work. I'll double check for sure now that I know what I am looking for. It doesn't really matter though since building permits aren't legally required, and everything is being done according to code.

Building permits aren't legally required???  Whoa, note to self - do not move to WV!  Definitely don't want to move into a house wired/built/plumbed by Goober without any checks by appropriately knowledgeable people.

Around here you can generally do most any work yourself, provided you pull the appropriate permits (professionals must also), then get the work inspected by the city inspector (which is part of the permit process).

We don't have a city inspector. We have a county planning commission. They regulate new construction and zoning. Professionals are subject to their own professional codes. Now don't go thinking that all of WV is like my county. I happen to live in a subdivision (which was fully regulated and subject to subdivision building permits, codes, and regulations when it was built), in an unincorporated area. Just a mile away is a fully incorporated town that subjects everyone to building permits and the like. I grew up in a town, which was also subject to building permits.

Take a scenic drive thru some backroads in WV some time. You will be astounded at some of the "buildings" that pass as houses. Did you know that hubcaps can be considered window shutters, and two sheets of plastic is a "WV double paned window?

That is why when you buy a house, you ALWAYS get a thorough home inspection done, and possibly also structural inspections, pest/insect inspections, etc. If a problem is found, you can follow up with a more specialized inspection. You do this stuff with any house you might buy, whether it is in an area like Chad's or in an area like mine.

There really is nothing to worry about if you take the necessary precatutions.

[ChadTower]

I know it might be a hassle when I go to sell the house, but I'll have permits for the electrical and it'll be sold as a partially finished basement. W/o being able to make the money back on the back end it's not really worth tossing 10+ thousand down there. So that's why I'm trying to keep the costs low.

It shouldn't be a problem except that you cannot count it as living space and it doesn't add to the square footage.  So long as everything is done to code and properly inspected it should be okay.  You're right that you won't be able to add much to the house price for this stuff, but unless the housing market changes, that's the least of your issues if you sell.

My house was built in 1954 but doesn't have any oddness.  Very well built and maintained over the years.  We bought it from the original owner not too long ago.

[myntik1]

Even with the housing market on the decline my house has probably increased in value in the six months i've been there.  If it hasn't then i need to shoot myself. I love this place but it was built in 1949 and except for the siding and gas furnace it probably was all original.  We had to replace all of the bathroom fixtures, all of the appliances, yanked all of the vintage lights, we had the floors fixed and finished, upgraded the 50 amp fuse situation, removed the dead tree from the backyard and regraded the slope of the backyard.  right now my pockets are on E.

[Ed_McCarron]

It shouldn't be a problem except that you cannot count it as living space and it doesn't add to the square footage.

My house was built in 1954 but doesn't have any oddness. 

My house was built in the 20s.  Theres ways around everything.  When we wanted to rent out the upstairs and include the finished attic (third floor) as a bedroom, we were told that since there was no fire escape, we couldn't rent it as a bedroom.

We listed it as two bedrooms with a third floor sitting room, and called the old sitting room (second floor) a bedroom.

The inspector told me that once the tenants moved in,he didn't care where they were.  If they chose to sleep in the sitting room and got crisped, that is their problem, not mine.

Go figure.

[shardian]

It shouldn't be a problem except that you cannot count it as living space and it doesn't add to the square footage.

My house was built in 1954 but doesn't have any oddness. 

My house was built in the 20s.  Theres ways around everything.  When we wanted to rent out the upstairs and include the finished attic (third floor) as a bedroom, we were told that since there was no fire escape, we couldn't rent it as a bedroom.

We listed it as two bedrooms with a third floor sitting room, and called the old sitting room (second floor) a bedroom.

The inspector told me that once the tenants moved in,he didn't care where they were.  If they chose to sleep in the sitting room and got crisped, that is their problem, not mine.

Go figure.

Well you could at least be a nice guy and put one of those instant ladders up there by the window...

[Ed_McCarron]

Ended up not renting it, anyway.

Even from the 3rd floor, its only a 10' drop to the roof below.  From there, another 10' to the ground.

You might break a leg or two, but I suspect you'd survive.

We sleep on the second floor now (turned it back into a single house) and do indeed have the collapsible ladders.

[myntik1]

I would like to think the writers strike has effected the progress on my basement. But between work, family and college football my basement has taken a backseat. I had a buddy who's a housing inspector for another city come over and take a look at my basement and give me some suggestions before I start cutting lumber. He quickly 86'ed any thoughts of me getting a permit but he did give me a bunch of useful suggestions.  I also had a guy come over the other night to look at my basement and to see if it's something he would like to help me with.  He showed up with his work truck that the boss let's him take home.  The truck was loaded with every tool known to man.  Forget that crap Duke used to give me about knowing is half the battle, having the proper tools is half the battle. Anyway I'm drafting up a new plan for the layout and I'm starting late next week when the fam's out of town.

[shardian]

Update:

I have finished painting! Tommorow I will be replacing all of the outlets/switches/vents, then I'll be moving in some stuff from the garage in prep for Elizabeth's 1st Birthday party next Saturday, including 1 arcade machine. The flooring and trim will be started near the end of this month, so the whole basement should be done around the end of March I suppose.

[boykster]

I'm about due to start working on the rest of my basement project.  I already built out my theater and rec-room / bar, time to finish the gym and basement downstairs.  The ceiling in the gym is done, just need to do some low-voltage wiring, hang sheetrock and install the cork flooring.  The bathroom on the other hand is totally raw.  Concrete flooring, needs a lot of framing, some plumbing rework, drywall, etc. We've taken out a tub/shower and won't be replacing it - putting in a sauna instead. 

Good times...