Betson Multi-Sync + ArcadeVGA = Scrunchy

[jrmitch]

Hi Guys,

I'm wondering if anybody here can solve a problem that I'm having with ArcadeVGA and A new Betson Multisync.

On many higher resolution games the far right side of the screen seems to be compressed for some odd reason.  Its most noticeable on fighters that have portaits in the corners (Marvel Super Heros for example).  One portait will be half the size of the other.  Maxing out the horizontal seems to put things into a bit better proportions, but then I'm missing have the picture. 

I'm sure that somebody knows what is a-miss, but I can't figure it.  I'm "supposedly" running without hardware stretch on.  If need be I can see if I can muster up a screen shot.

I'm running Mala, Mame .120, Tri-sync fix, and used Gavin Bensons util to generate the resolutions.

Thanks!
Jeff

[MonMotha]

There is a "Horizontal Linearity" setting in service mode that will certainly have some effect.  Also check your pinbalance setting.  It's possible that this is wrong and is being corrected back out using parallelogram and trapezoid.

Make sure you write down EVERY SETTING in service mode before you futz with them - there's no way to restore them if you screw up (the "restore" option in user mode sets everything back to the user mode defaults, which correspond to the settings in service mode; i.e. service mode sets the user mode defaults and user mode is simply deltas from service mode).

To get into service mode, hold "Up" on the remote as you power on the monitor.  The OSD will use pink instead of white bars/text, and there will be additional options.

[jrmitch]

There is a "Horizontal Linearity" setting in service mode that will certainly have some effect.  Also check your pinbalance setting.  It's possible that this is wrong and is being corrected back out using parallelogram and trapezoid.

Unfortunately, none of this worked for me .  Still scrunchy.

[scurvy]

i have the same setup and mine is scrunchy on the sides too.. i barely notice it.. so i just deal with it.

[jrmitch]

i have the same setup and mine is scrunchy on the sides too.. i barely notice it.. so i just deal with it.

I've been doing a little forum spelunking and it seems that this issue has come up a lot in the past with no real solution from what I can find.  It's not too terrible, but if I can fix it, I'd really like to.

[vindes]

I have the same setup with the same issue.  I toyed with the user and service mode settings without any success.

[jrmitch]

Yeah, had I known this was the case, I would have never bought it.  I'm surprised that nobody here piped up since I mentioned that I was contemplating getting a Betson.  In my opinion playing on a computer monitor or a tv is better than this garbage.

[MonMotha]

I have one of these monitors.  It doesn't exhibit any of these problems at any resolution or with any tested gameboard (I have several).  I've seen this monitor and it's big cousin, the KT-3414DF, used on many, many games.  None of them exhibit notable linearity issues.  Either I got really lucky, or you all are being way too exacting or not setting things up well.  Be aware that I'm noted for being extremely picky about video presentation, too.

It is almost impossible to get perfect linearity and edge geometry out of these large, "flatish" tubes.  If you put a grid pattern on a large CRT TV or even a large PC monitor, it won't be perfect, either.  You should, however, be able to get close, but it may take a little work.

These monitors often ship with horrible defaults, especially brightness/contrast.  Take the time to go through the geometry tune-up procedure in the service manual.  The order is specifically designed to minimize the interdependency between the settings as much as possible.  Set your brightness and contrast correctly, too.  You'll be rewarded with better lifetime.  Heck, it's also possible that your "geometry" issues are actually just the image blooming.  Sadly, the monitor is shipped cranked that high.

In particular, pay attention to pincussion, pinbalance, trapezoid, and parallelogram.  Those 4 settings combined with overuse of the "corner" controls can easily give you perfect edge geometry but tons of distortion in the middle.  The corner controls are for final tweaks of the corner after everything else is set.  I know it's tempting to hit them early on, but that just causes these kind of problems.

Use a real grid pattern for testing, and use a ruler or some other measuring device (taylor's tape works well): the eye will otherwise deceive you.

Modern digital monitors have so many geometry settings with subtle interdependencies that it's easy to get lost.  It can make tuning things up a very time consuming process: I spent about 4 or 5 hours.  It means that you can make things really, really, wrong.  It also means that with work, you can get things pretty darn near perfect, often better than you could using only the remote controls on fully analog monitors.

I've only heard of these issues from ArcadeVGA users.  While I have no idea how or why (there isn't a whole lot that can go wrong at this point to cause this other than a messed up timebase for the pixel clock), it is somewhat possible that the card is doing something dumb.  If you have real game boards, try it with those.

The only issues I've had with this monitor are related to separation of composite sync (mostly on playstation/ps2 based devices) and the degauss coil not hitting the corners well.  Both of these are obvious and often easily corrected (use separate sync if available or separate it before hand, and use a handheld degauss coil, respectively).

If the geometry really is as absolutely horrible as you describe, I'd suggest you either return it or demand it be serviced (assuming it's still new).  It shouldn't be that bad.

[essence25]

The only issues I've had with this monitor are related to separation of composite sync (mostly on playstation/ps2 based devices) and the degauss coil not hitting the corners well. 

Do you mean that you cant get the RGBS output from the PS1/PS2 to properly sync? I have the same problem with the Neotec DX500 monitor. The advertised "composite" sync does not work, I guess it needs a separated c-sync without the actual composite video signal. I'll have to get  a sync separator.

http://www.neotecgraphic.com/detail.asp?TABLENAME=OSD_TRISYNC&ID=2

SNES and Sega Genesis seems to sync fine with the exception of genesis read my other post.

 Oh an speaking of side geometry, I noted some distorsions too but not on the Gauntlet DL board that
I have in this cabinet. Only with Snes and other 15khz consoles.  Looks like things get thin when in the middle of the screen but they get fatter/blow up/lens effect towards the sides of the screen. Not too bad but noticeable on smooth scrollers.


I too had high hopes for these tri-sync monitors but they seem pretty flimsy and weakly built.
Mine came in a Gauntlet Dark Legacy cabinet and monitor seems very nice and crisp not bad convergeance on all corners, however bright screens does cause image to blow out a bit (cheap/weak power supply?)

[jrmitch]

I've only heard of these issues from ArcadeVGA users.  While I have no idea how or why (there isn't a whole lot that can go wrong at this point to cause this other than a messed up timebase for the pixel clock), it is somewhat possible that the card is doing something dumb.  If you have real game boards, try it with those.

This particular line got me to take a step back.  Hmmm.. only people with arcadeVGA you say?  Perhaps that's the common link rather than the monitor. 

So I started looking into resolution settings for the games.  Wouldn't you know it, a particular class of games that exhibited this side stretching on my monitor ran natively at 384x224.  ArcadeVGA doesn't seem to support this resolution, so the resolution tool pictured its close neighbor 384x288.  Why it seemed to only be stretched on the right side is a bit of a mystery to me.  Maybe somebody has some insight to this.

Next, I tried switching it to 640x480 with hardware stretch.  Wala, no distortion, although I think the picture is much smoother and non-arcady looking.

I guess I'll have to play guessing games with regards to resolutions and hardware stretch to get the best fit for games that aren't natively supported by ArcadeVGA. 

At least I can breath a bit easier now that I know what's going on.  Thanks for getting my brain on the right track!

Here's a table of supported arcadeVGA resolutions: http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainst.html

[MonMotha]

Well, PS2s don't output RGBS; you have to strip the sync off the CVBS line.  However, the sync which is inserted onto that line is rather "whacked out" and is difficult for some monitors to separate.  If you separate it externally (separate sync is not available from the A/V output of a PS2), things work fine.  I've also had trouble with arcade boards based on playstations and PS2s (such as the Konami system 573).  Composite sync works fine with most other signals, at least at standard and medium res (haven't tried VGA or higher).

The distortion you speak of near the center I have noticed on mine.  Adjusting it properly (as I explained above) does minimize, but not eliminate, this.  It's only slightly noticiable at a grid and completely unnoticible in game.

As for convergence, that's another thing that's hard to get set perfectly on huge tubes.  I have a 33" non-multisync on a Pump GX cabinet with somewhat iffy convergence in the corners, but it ends up being completely unnoticable in gameplay.  Hence, I haven't bothered to try and make it any better.  I would like to see a little more effort on the part of the monitor makers to tune them up correctly before they ship them, though.  This monitor does require you to play with rings manually, so it's probably not worth messing with unless it's really bad.

I've yet to see a CRT monitor (other than some high end PC workstation monitors) that doesn't exhibit a sort of zooming/blow out effect when presented with bright/dark screens.  Some do it worse than others, and older monitors that have questionable caps tend to be the worst.  I've noted these Kortek's as being rather good in this regard, in fact.

I'm not familiar enough with the ArcadeVGA to say much about what it can and can't do.  Normally when I need to do weird stuff like this, I grab an older Matrox card and come up with something compatible (like 1440x480 interlaced to emulate NTSC timed video).  The Matrox hardware seems extremely flexible, which is why I stick with it.  I do run Linux, however, which gives me somewhat easier and more direct control over video modes than Windows users have without extra tools.

[rockin_rick]

I don't know if this is your problem or not, but I recently had a tough time getting my arcadevga looking right on a normal 19" CGA.  I was using mala and changing the mame settings in there, but it ends up that mala was not really changing them.  For instance, I changed to direct draw within mala, but mame 'overrided' it (or mala didn't properly change it) and used d3d.  It wasn't until I edited mame.ini that it actually used direct draw and not d3d, and the pic looked SO much better.  Not sure why Mala wasn't working right...  If you are changing your mame settings via mala, try changing them via mame.ini instead.

Rick

[Jdurg]

Are you certain that the file wasn't set to "read only"?  I've done that to myself many times before where I couldn't figure out why the individual game settings weren't being changed even though I changed it in my front end.  I then took a look at the file and saw that they were set to read only.   

[rockin_rick]

Hmmm, not certain.  But it didn't bark at me when I saved/overwrote the old file.  I didn't enable 'read-only' - it was set to however the install makes it.

Rick