Should I Get A Table Saw Or A Miter Saw?

[fjl]

I've been working on my control panel cutting small wood parts. While I can do this with some accuracy whilst using my circular saw or my jigsaw, it still falls short of my expectations. I'll end up being off by something as small as 1/16 on one corner and it ends up making a big difference when trying to put it together. Plus all that fine tunning to get the cut right, clamping down my work and everything else involved is so time consuming. I'm wasting a whole day just cutting a few pieces of wood. I feel like I'm wasting my day away. And its extra frustrating when the cut comes out wrong and I have to start all over.

So after much though, I'm thinking of getting something to help me out. Either the miter saw or table saw. I really don't know much about miter saws and table saws so I was hoping you guys could fill me in. Is a miter saw meant to cut mostly angles on wood molding and the like? And can I move the work while cutting it or can only the table saw do that? I know that a table saw is meant to cut long strips of wood since it contains a rip fence but could it also do weird angled cuts like I need in this thread?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72257.0

As you can see, I really don't know much about these type of saws. I guess basically I'd like to know what would better suit me for the type of cuts I'm trying to make. And which table saws or miter saws would you guys recommend me to get?

[sstorkel]

Miter saws are designed to make cross cuts in narrow pieces of wood. The maximum width that can be cut is on the order of 8-12", depending on the saw. Sliding compound miter saws (SCMS) have a slightly higher cut capacity but typically cost 2X more than a regular compound miter saw (CMS). Miter saws are great for cutting molding, dimensional lumber, floor boards, etc. Can't imagine when you'd use one on a MAME project, however.

Table saws are designed to make rip cuts in large pieces of lumber. You can use the miter gauge to make cross cuts, but the table saw really excels at rip cuts. It is also possible to make angle and bevel cuts with a table saw. Low-end table saws cost as much as high-end SCMSs. A table saw is a very dangerous tool if you don't know what you're doing. The fact that you don't know whether to buy a table saw or miter saw makes me think that you don't. Do not buy a table saw until you understand and know how to prevent kickback accidents! A table saw is a more general purpose tool than a miter saw. If you buy anything other than a benchtop table saw, you'll end up doing a major portion of the assembly, which means that the saw won't work perfectly right out of the box. If you don't have the tools and expertise to adjust a table saw, you'll need to find someone who can help you put it together. Finally, keep in mind that using a table saw to cut large pieces of wood (e.g. an entire sheet of MDF or plywood) is very difficult to do safely! The best strategy is to cut large pieces of lumber to approximate size using a circular saw, then use the table saw and a helper to cut pieces to their final size.

If you could pick only one of these two tools to own, a full-size (e.g. contractor's, hybrid, or cabinet) table saw would be the tool to own. Benchtop table saws have their place, but they really aren't ideal for building something as large as a MAME cabinet. If all you're just going to build control panel boxes, say, they might be a better fit.

And it may be that you just need to work on your technique. I've built some pretty decent furniture, kitchen cabinets, etc. and I don't own a table saw... A circular saw (albeit a Festool), router, a decent block plane, and some good measuring tools will go pretty far if you know how to use them!

[fjl]

Cool thanks for that write up. I'll look more into table saws.

[ratzz]

All saws cut out the width of the blade, so you need to make your cut on the waste side of the marked line, or even leave the pencil line in.

If you cut on the line, or the wrong side of it, your resulting piece will be the wrong size - by the width of the blade.

Ratzz

[fjl]

yeah I know that. Lets jsut sayI had to figure that out the hard way some time ago.

[bfauska]

I don't think I can add anything the sstorkel hasn't already said.  Unless you are working with very long pieces a carefully used table saw can do practically every cut that a miter saw can. 

I will repeat the point about knowing what you are doing with a table saw.  Most people are inherently scared of or weary of the blade, but it is not the only danger in a table saw.  In my 12 years working in shops with table saws I have never (knock on wood) seen a table saw accident directly involving the blade.  I have however seen several people with injuries that resulted in loss of work time from kickback.  I don't feel that the risks of kickback can be adequately described or demonstrated in text so I strongly urge you to learn to use a table saw from an experience user in person if you decide to do any work on one.  If the part you are working on ends getting moved in stead of cut by the blade the part WILL try to fly back toward you, very fast and very hard.  The best ways to avoid this are to not allow the part to become pinched between the blade and the fence and to feed the part through the saw at an appropriate (it varies from material to material) speed tending on the side of too slow for safety sake.

Again, a table saw is very versatile but use it carefully, and only after being trained by somebody who knows what they are doing.

[fjl]

You're right, a table saw is expensive.

Although when I went to my local hardware store I noticed something called a band saw. It looked like it could do what I need and would perhaps be safer. What can you tell me about band saws?

[Kaytrim]

Band saws have a limited depth of cut, usually smaller than a table saw.  The also have a limit in the width of cut they can handle.  Two things that they can do better though is cutting off nice thin strips of wood and cutting curves.  Think of a table saw as a circular saw turned upside down and a band saw as a upscale scroll saw or jig saw.

Here is a link to a nice video describing the different professional quality tools and their hobby counterparts.

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/?p=63

[sstorkel]

Band saws have a limited depth of cut, usually smaller than a table saw. 

I think you're confused. Depth of cut refers to the thickest piece of wood that can be cut. A moderate-priced 14" band saw will be able to cut wood 10-12" thick. In comparison, a table saw with a 10" blade will have a depth of cut that maxes out around 3-3.25".

The only limit on a band saw is how much wood you can fit between the blade and the column. This measurement is call various things: throat capacity, throat depth, blade-to-frame depth, etc. On a 14" band saw, the throat depth is typically 12-13".

Band saws tend to be safer than table saws, in my experience. Unfortunately, they're not necessarily good at cutting straight lines. That's because a band saw blade is much thinner than a table saw blade, which means that it is much easier to deflect. Band saws also tend to have smaller tables than table saws, which can make it more difficult to handle large pieces of wood. Fences used on band saws tend to be optimized for re-sawing. This is the only purpose for which I've ever used a wood-cutting band saw, so I'm not sure how well this type of fence would work for general woodworking.

[ChadTower]

Based on the nature of his questions I would say he shouldn't buy a band saw, table saw, or mitre saw, not for a while yet.  Shouldn't even be considering buying until he understands the tools, what they do well, what their limitations are, and most importantly how to use them safely.

And once you understand all of those things you can usually get a used tool for a great price compared to a new one... and since you understand the tool, you know what to look for, ensuring that you are getting a safe tool in solid condition.

[Hoopz]

Based on the nature of his questions I would say he shouldn't buy a band saw, table saw, or mitre saw, not for a while yet. 

Or a chisel...

[ChadTower]

   I hadn't even noticed that is the same guy.

[fjl]

Wow, dislike for me certainly travels.

[Hoopz]

Wow, dislike for me certainly travels.

Naw, but some common sense may do ya some good.   

[fixedpigs]

Based on the nature of his questions I would say he shouldn't buy a band saw, table saw, or mitre saw, not for a while yet.  Shouldn't even be considering buying until he understands the tools, what they do well, what their limitations are, and most importantly how to use them safely.

yup...it's just like the chisel thread...he wanted to know how to cut out the recesses for the hinges with his 'do everything wonder router'...and when advised to use the right tool for the job...he was very resistant...

why buy a table saw/band saw/miter saw at all...?

just use your router...

[ChadTower]

I'm just glad he didn't get injured from the chisel walking up the side of the board on him.

[fjl]

I did, I cut one of my fingers off.

I should have stuck with my router.

[BobA]

Not including the glueing, screwing and a bit of drilling

You can probably build a whole cab with just one of the tools below:

Hand Saw
Jig Saw
Scroll Saw
Circular Saw
Table Saw
Miter Saw
Radial Arm Saw
Router
RotoZip
Dremel Tool

Some are just good for certain cuts so you have to adapt.  If I had to guess I would think that the jig saw and circular saw and hand saw have been used to build more single cabs then most of the others. 

But if you have the cash get what ever you like.  The more the better when you are equiping a shop.  I like the miter saw more for frameing and deck building than cab building but it is always useful for a quick cut   Unless you have a large contractors saw with extensions or shop grade setup then handling large sheets of wood/mdf is difficult with a small table saw.  Maybe that is why I am always working on smaller bartops.

 If you have ever seen the father and son router guys on PBS you know that anything can be built with a router.

But I have yet to see anyone claim that they built it all with a chisel 

[fjl]

rofl, i'd like to see the outcome of the cab if it was built with only a hand saw.

Oh yeah, I'm looking into table saws. The Bosch 4000 looks really nice. So does the Dewalt DW745. It's a decision between those two. They're expensive though.

[ChadTower]

rofl, i'd like to see the outcome of the cab if it was built with only a hand saw.

Erm, people have been building very nice furniture for hundreds of years with hand tools.  You really need to focus on learning techniques and joinery.  Tools are far less important than technique.

[Hoopz]

Buying a $500 table saw is not going to help you build a better cabinet.  As Chad said, technique is the key.  Understanding kerf is a big part of woodworking.  As you mentioned, it took errors for you to figure that out.  If it takes you an entire day to cut a few pieces of wood, then your technique has to be off.

Learning the basics first is always the most important step.  Buying expensive tools that you can't use properly wont accomplish anything besides adding more frustrations.

I have built home entertainment systems, bookcases, tv stands, an arcade cabinet, multiple control panels etc with a $45 Bosch circular saw, an inexpensive Sears jig saw and a free router.  You don't need expensive stuff to build nice things when you are comfortable with technique.

[ChadTower]

Learning the basics first is always the most important step.  Buying expensive tools that you can't use properly wont accomplish anything besides adding more frustrations.

And possibly removing body parts.  Wonder if this guy thinks it's harder to cut your hand off than it is to cut a 1" oak plank.

[shardian]

Erm, people have been building very nice furniture for hundreds of years with hand tools.  You really need to focus on learning techniques and joinery.  Tools are far less important than technique.

Check out this show on PBS. It is really cool to see that guy work.
The Woodwrights Shop on PBS

[ChadTower]

I will... thanks.

[Hoopz]

And possibly removing body parts.  Wonder if this guy thinks it's harder to cut your hand off than it is to cut a 1" oak plank.

I'll take "Missing Limbs" for $500 Alex.

[ChadTower]

Mmmmm,  kickback injuries.  Slapped in the face by plywood going 45mph.  Arm chopped off by a walking circular saw with the blade in backwards.    Router bit incorrectly secured with both an entrance and exit wound.

[sstorkel]

rofl, i'd like to see the outcome of the cab if it was built with only a hand saw.

I'm quite confident that I could build a top-notch cabinet using only a couple of saws, a couple of hand planes, a woodworking workbench, and some measuring tools. It'd take a bit longer than with power tools, but the results would be no less accurate...

Oh yeah, I'm looking into table saws. The Bosch 4000 looks really nice. So does the Dewalt DW745. It's a decision between those two. They're expensive though.

The Bosch 4000 is a great saw! It's completely unsuited to building something as large as an arcade cabinet, but it's a nice saw nonetheless. It has some nice safety features, like a riving knife, which it sounds like you'll need.

[Hoopz]

Mmmmm,  kickback injuries.  Slapped in the face by plywood going 45mph.  Arm chopped off by a walking circular saw with the blade in backwards.    Router bit incorrectly secured with both an entrance and exit wound.

What are things that will happen when using a power tool with out proper understanding of safety and technique?

[ChadTower]

When I first started working with power tools I had a habit of putting the circular saw blade in backwards... I actually ended up taking a sharpie and drawing arrows on the metal housing to indicate which way the blade would be spinning.  I'd put the blade in backwards, try to cut with it, and the center bolt would come loose, causing the blade to stop spinning even though the motor was still going.  Looking back I'm lucky I didn't injure myself.

[fjl]

Seems most people here are rooting against me. That's fine, I'm not here to be liked. I'm a guy that loves power tools. Is that so wrong? If I'm going to learn how to use them, I have to start somewhere and hands on using them is the best way.

Anyways, whenever I work with power tools, I always take all safety into consideration. I always wear safety goggles while cutting anything wood, I constantly have a fan blowing at the pieces I'm cutting so it blows all dust away before I have a chance to breathe it in. I vacuum up any noticeable dust. I always use both hands to grip my tools and never use them unless I'm at the best stance where I'm not prone to slippage. I have yet to receive any bodily injury while using any of my tools. I'm sure all my safety practices will cross over to using a table saw.

I already know that the bosch table saw is unsuited for big pieces of wood like the cabinet. I'm not doing all this just to build an arcade cabinet. I'm also looking into building small wood crafts as a hobby. This is why I'm looking into buying some of the better tools. And it looks like a table saw would be a nice addition to my hardware set.

[ChadTower]

I have to start somewhere and hands on using them is the best way.

No, it's not.  It's really not.

[ratzz]

My advice would be to read, read and read some more.

Also see it you can sign up to some evening classes for woodworking. I did three years joinery training when I left school (mid 80's) and I still have the upmost respect for sharp, high speed pieces of metal.

I'm pretty sure no-one here wishes you any harm, but it seems like a little more education is needed before you get involved with powerful tools.

[Hoopz]

Seems most people here are rooting against me.

Not at all.  You need to understand that there is a right and wrong way to handle tools and a right and wrong way to learn how to use them.  Based on the rest of your post, you have some fundamentals down but that doesn't mean you have to use them to learn.

[bfauska]

Seems most people here are rooting against me. That's fine, I'm not here to be liked. I'm a guy that loves power tools. Is that so wrong? If I'm going to learn how to use them, I have to start somewhere and hands on using them is the best way.

I love power tools, I buy power tools I don't need, I'm all for other people doing the same.  I DON'T wish you any harm or expect you to fail.

Learning by doing is a fantastic system... WHEN YOU ARE LEARNING FROM A SKILL THAT ALLOWS MISTAKES TO TEACH YOU, NOT HARM YOU.

The problem with learning how to use something like a table saw from a hands on, or a even book based, technique is that there are things about table saws in particular that behave differently than other tools.  There are very few other tools where you can learn about the hazards of kick-back and how to avoid it.  Books may spell it out or even show pictures, but compared to learning under the supervision of a well trained person are a totally inadequate teacher.

It is in YOUR best interest to take the time to learn how to use a tool by observing and following somebody else.  For much less than the price of a good table saw you could take an evening class at a community college and learn the right way to use the tools in question.  You may even be able to cut some of the parts you are planning to make in the shop.  If you don't know anybody with these tools who is willing to work with you then find a place you can pay to learn. 

If we were rooting against you we would have told you that the best table saw you can get is the rusty used one listed on CraigsList last week, with the missing guard and fence, and a dull blade.  We're trying to advise you how NOT to harm yourself.

[lcddream]

Most people are inherently scared of or weary of the blade,

Sorry, completely irrelevant, but it's wary not weary. Weary means tired. Wary is cautious. Leary is cautious.

I don't know why but many people make this mistake.....and for some reason I notice every time.

[fjl]

So is using a table saw the same as playing with hand grenades? Cause it seems like some of you are saying that using a table saw for the first time is just as dangerous.

I still plan to get one but I will obviously read all instructions on how to use it and take all safety precautions. I cannot take a class on woodshop because I do not have the time for it.

And back on topic...

Thanks to those who cleared up all my questions on the difference between a table saw and a miter saw. Table saw is obviously what I will need. So anyone got any links to tips on using the table saw?

[sstorkel]

So is using a table saw the same as playing with hand grenades? Cause it seems like some of you are saying that using a table saw for the first time is just as dangerous.

Using a table saw is more dangerous actually, especially in your case because you think the saw isn't dangerous. It's simple to be safe with a hand grenade: just don't pull the pin and you're fine. Safety with a table saw is more difficult, because there are many more ways to be injured and many ways things can go wrong.

I still plan to get one but I will obviously read all instructions on how to use it and take all safety precautions. I cannot take a class on woodshop because I do not have the time for it.

---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. If you have time to use a table saw, you have time to take a class. Chances are your local Woodcraft or Rockler store will have evening or weekend classes that will fit into your schedule and teach you the basics. There may not be enough time for you to build an actual project, which really helps to drive the topics home, but there will be enough for some basic safety information and demonstrations. If there's a woodworking show in your area, they usually have classes as well.

If all else fails, you can take a class while you're recovering from your first table saw-related injury. Assuming it doesn't kill you...

So anyone got any links to tips on using the table saw?

I'd suggest you subscribe to a project-oriented woodworking magazine like Wood or Popular Woodworking; they often have technique articles (or excerpts that are part of a particular project). I'd also suggest The Table Saw Book by Kelly Mehler. Many people think it's the "gold standard" of table saw education.

[shardian]

You don't need a miter saw or a table saw to make cuts for a cabinet. A circular saw, a jig saw, a router, and a saw board are the best set of tools for the job.

Now if you were going to get a large power tool that might help you in some way, I would go with a radial arm saw. It can rip, cut, compound miter, rabbet, etc.

[ChadTower]

So is using a table saw the same as playing with hand grenades? Cause it seems like some of you are saying that using a table saw for the first time is just as dangerous.

Ignoring good safety advice is more dangerous than either one.  Especially when you have 5 people taking time out of their lives to help you understand.

[shardian]

What you really need more than anything is practice, practice, and more practice with the hand held power tools. You are not alone in the "measure 5 times, mark, measure 3 more times, cut and the ---smurfing--- thing is still off!" crowd.

If I had to guess, you also watch New Yankee workshop and cuss the guy for making it look so easy. I see it that if you are taking that much time to do your cuts, at least you are taking the time to try and do it right and are following safety measures.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is everyone needs to drop the sarcastic safety issue.

The last point I'll make is that unless you are planning to become a hobbyist woodworker/ cabinet maker, there is absolutely no reason to own a table saw.