Peale, what's up with your footer?

[mccoy178]

I took Levaquin this summer for an infection and it did great.  Did something happen to your family or something?

[JackTucky]

 

[SirPeale]

Happened to me.

It does a good job at killing bacteria, sure.  The after-effects I'm experiencing...I'd rather have the infection back.

 

You find misery funny there, Jack?

[ChadTower]

If half of the adverse reactions to medication reports I've read at work are true there are quite a few drugs out there not worth taking... some of these things can really eff up some people.  It's well documented, too, just not public info because of the money involved.

[shardian]

What really sucks is that between the pressure from drug companies who push their products, and the fear of prosecution you can barely get a clear cut answer out of a doctor. Even then, you have to wonder if you can trust what he says.

[ChadTower]

Some small practice general practition MDs make more off the drug company reps than off of their practice.  If you have a doctor that gives out a handful of samples of a drug right along with the prescription, that's your doctor.  I've seen the trending info on this at work too and it's a real problem for patients.

[mccoy178]

What do you suggest they use to fight MRSA?

[ChadTower]

I'm not a medications researcher so I can't give a good answer to that.

What I can speak on is how well the negative effects of some of these drugs are covered up... the short term answer I'd use, given what I know, is effective communication of the side effect risks when writing these prescriptions.  Most doctors won't ever even mention the possibility.  That way people like Peale would have the info they need to make their own decision... or at least have been warned that the nasty side effects they experience have a known cause rather than going through the anxiety of thinking they have another major health problem.

[Ed_McCarron]

What I can speak on is how well the negative effects of some of these drugs are covered up...

Probably.  But, the positives typically outweigh the negatives.  I was prescribed a FQ antibiotic for an infection that wouldn't clear up.  I told the doc to go scratch - I already have a prolonged QT for some reason.  He prescribed something else that did the job.

What do you suggest they use to fight MRSA?

You mean herbs and positive thinking won't fix this one?

If my choices are

1.  A drug that could possibly have a tiny chance of making me sick
2.  Death

I'll take the liver damage for $1000, Alex.

[JackTucky]

I'm not a medications researcher so I can't give a good answer to that.

Since when has that stopped you from answering.

given what I know,

Together with a token *might* get you on the subway.

=J

[saint]

Some small practice general practition MDs make more off the drug company reps than off of their practice.  If you have a doctor that gives out a handful of samples of a drug right along with the prescription, that's your doctor.  I've seen the trending info on this at work too and it's a real problem for patients.

Meh, I cry bullhockey. The restrictions on drug reps has gotten stricter over the past few years, not lighter. Maybe you'll find a doctor on the take, but I don't believe it's a rampant issue. Other than bribes, how would doctors make money off of drug reps?

[AtomSmasher]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw a few months ago for a drug (I don't remember which) and one of the side effects they listed was a compulsion to gamble.  I thought that was odd.

[ChadTower]

Meh, I cry bullhockey. The restrictions on drug reps has gotten stricter over the past few years, not lighter. Maybe you'll find a doctor on the take, but I don't believe it's a rampant issue. Other than bribes, how would doctors make money off of drug reps?

Trips, "conventions"... lots of ways... ever see the spread a drug rep will bring to a doctor's office for lunch?  Once a week indefinitely for everyone employed there?  My wife used to get catered lunch 3x/week and she was just answering phones.  Over time the "little" things add up pretty heavily.  Combine that with very little oversight and even less enforcement of those restrictions and they may as well not exist.  They make so much money off of these practices that penalties are viewed like speeding tickets - you know you may get a ticket, but it's not that bad, and you constantly speed anyway.

Since when has that stopped you from answering.

So you're going to tool on me for when I do say that?  Good job.     Nice value add to the thread. 

[saint]

Meh, I cry bullhockey. The restrictions on drug reps has gotten stricter over the past few years, not lighter. Maybe you'll find a doctor on the take, but I don't believe it's a rampant issue. Other than bribes, how would doctors make money off of drug reps?

Trips, "conventions"... lots of ways... ever see the spread a drug rep will bring to a doctor's office for lunch?  Once a week indefinitely for everyone employed there?  My wife used to get catered lunch 3x/week and she was just answering phones.  Over time the "little" things add up pretty heavily.  Combine that with very little oversight and even less enforcement of those restrictions and they may as well not exist.  They make so much money off of these practices that penalties are viewed like speeding tickets - you know you may get a ticket, but it's not that bad, and you constantly speed anyway.

Yes actually, I have. They don't do that anymore. I have a doctor relative and what drug reps have been doing has changed dramatically in the last several years. I was at a business lunch the other day and a drug rep was at our table and I asked why, and he said the regulation they were under has dramatically increased. The fines aren't small either for violations - they're big and people lose jobs. He said he's not even allowed to bring someone a birthday cake with the person's name on it.

Either way, all those perks don't add up to but a small percentage of what a doctor makes in a year. Lunches, dinners, trips -- even if it's full on, you're talking 5 to 20 thousand a year? Heck, go whole hog and call it 40 thousand a year (never happen). Doctors make over 100 thousand a year in the general practices, and much much more as you get specialized.

[ChadTower]

Maybe the ethical reps are following the law, I can buy that.  I can't deny what I see every time I go into my own doctor's office, though.  Of course, that guy is clearly a pharmacist with his own pad.  Not all that great a rep as a diagnostic physician.  I go in and tell him what I need done and he writes it up.  There are definitely still doctors and reps who haven't changed.  We're going to see more and more news on this as the performance enhancer rings get busted up in the next couple of years.  We're seeing a good amount of it now.

[SirPeale]

Yes actually, I have. They don't do that anymore. I have a doctor relative and what drug reps have been doing has changed dramatically in the last several years. I was at a business lunch the other day and a drug rep was at our table and I asked why, and he said the regulation they were under has dramatically increased. The fines aren't small either for violations - they're big and people lose jobs. He said he's not even allowed to bring someone a birthday cake with the person's name on it.

I've seen it with my own eyes too, John.  And not long ago.

[saint]

Wonder if it's state by state dependent?

[ChadTower]

I doubt the restrictions are but the enforcement definitely would be.  Lack of enforcement, especially in more rural areas, would be almost equal to no new rules.

[Ed_McCarron]

Around here (PA) the drug reps I've seen in docs offices just give out cheesy swag like penlights or stethoscope warmers.

On the other hand, they are all smoking hot single chicks.

You do the math.  I think I understand where the perk is.

[ChadTower]

You just can't legislate hot chicks as currency.   

[JackTucky]

Since when has that stopped you from answering.

So you're going to tool on me for when I do say that?  Good job.     Nice value add to the thread. 

I wasn't trying to add any value.  How do YOU like it?

=J

[ChadTower]

I prefer hot chicks as currency.

[Ed_McCarron]

I prefer hot chicks as currency.

Got change for a brunette?

[ChadTower]

I think I might but I'm not sure she's a real blonde.  She may be counterfeit.

[Ed_McCarron]

I think I might but I'm not sure she's a real blonde.  She may be counterfeit.

Check for root color.  Its the only family-friendly way to be sure shes not bleached.

[JackTucky]

You find misery funny there, Jack?

Not at all.  It's funny that Mccoy says he took it.  It's not funny that you are sick.  But you are sick alot.  That's kind of funny.

=J

[SirPeale]

I've been on a constant sick since April, so yeah, I guess I'm sick a lot.

[Ed_McCarron]

I've been on a constant sick since April, so yeah, I guess I'm sick a lot.

It's Chad.  9 out of 10 doctors say reading his posts can make you sick.

[ChadTower]

It's Chad.  9 out of 10 doctors say reading his posts can make you sick.

It's all good.  The other one calls me extremely sexy.  God bless mad scientists.

[boykster]

Saint is spot on, the days of all inclusive conferences and doctor kickbacks are LONG GONE.  I work in the biotech/pharma industry and my father was a physician.  I've seen it first hand from the inside and out.  Why do you think tv commercials directly marketing to patients has increased 1000 fold in the past 20 years? 

Sorry to hear you had some possible adverse affects from receiving a fluoroquinolone antibiotic.  I seriously doubt it was a conspiracy to make you sick.

Ed's also spot on; pharmaceutical agents are ALL poisons, but they positive affects mediate the adverse ones, and that's one reason that it's so expensive and time-consuming to bring a new product to market.  Years of testing went in to developing dose response curves and toxicity profiles.

[shardian]

It's Chad.  9 out of 10 doctors say reading his posts can make you sick.

It's all good.  The other one calls me extremely sexy.  God bless mad scientists.

That reminded of that cereal commercial where the first 4 doctors said yes to a study, then as the 5th one went to answer, a squirrel came in thru the window and chomped down on his nuts, resulting in him screaming "NOOOOOOOOO!!!"
 

[Ed_McCarron]

Saint is spot on, the days of all inclusive conferences and doctor kickbacks are LONG GONE.  I work in the biotech/pharma industry and my father was a physician.  I've seen it first hand from the inside and out.  Why do you think tv commercials directly marketing to patients has increased 1000 fold in the past 20 years? 

Yeah, but have you written any papers on the subject?

[ChadTower]

He did but he released them in a patch against the drugmakers' wishes.

[boykster]

Oh, and you're right...most drug reps I've ever seen are SMOKIN HOT women.....

[SirPeale]

Sorry to hear you had some possible adverse affects from receiving a fluoroquinolone antibiotic.  I seriously doubt it was a conspiracy to make you sick.

Conspiracy to make me sick?  No, I don't believe that.  I believe it's a conspiracy to keep Bayer's stockholders wallets lined with green.  I believe that if FQs got some serious public scrutiny that they would be used for what they're intended for: last resort antibiotics.

[boykster]

Sorry to hear you had some possible adverse affects from receiving a fluoroquinolone antibiotic.  I seriously doubt it was a conspiracy to make you sick.

Conspiracy to make me sick?  No, I don't believe that.  I believe it's a conspiracy to keep Bayer's stockholders wallets lined with green.  I believe that if FQs got some serious public scrutiny that they would be used for what they're intended for: last resort antibiotics.

Here's where it gets complicated; for every 1 patient who has an AE to FQ's, there are probably 100 or 1000 patients who don't.  Deny those 1000 patients access to FQ's as primary treatment course and you're doing a dis-service to that patient population.  When faced with a life-threatening condition you are faced with a decision; most people want a wonder pill that cures what ails them, clean and simple.  Broad spectrum antibiotics like FQ's are essential in the treatment of many different types of bacterium.

Yes, there are known side effects, but there are known side affects for EVERY SINGLE pharmaceutical on the market.  Even the most simple of all medications, aspirin, can kill you in a hundred ways if mis-used.

Also, Bayer is not evil in this; many companies market FQ based AB's - GSK, Sanofi-Aventis, BMS and others also market FQ based antibiotics.  Heck, the company I used to work for was working on a "next generation" antibiotic for the specific treatment of P.aeruginosa using a fluoroquinolone based drug scaffold.

[ChadTower]

Yes, there are known side effects, but there are known side affects for EVERY SINGLE pharmaceutical on the market.  Even the most simple of all medications, aspirin, can kill you in a hundred ways if mis-used.

That's exactly the point.  Known to whom?  They weren't known to Peale, even after weeks of suffering them, or to the doctor who was trying to help him find a cause.  Some of that blame definitely lies on the doctor but when side effects could potentially last for months after the medication is no longer being taken it needs to be put out there for the doctor and the patient to make an educated decision on before the drug is consumed.  Peale does have the right to seek out alternative treatments if he wants.

[boykster]

Yes, there are known side effects, but there are known side affects for EVERY SINGLE pharmaceutical on the market.  Even the most simple of all medications, aspirin, can kill you in a hundred ways if mis-used.

That's exactly the point.  Known to whom?  They weren't known to Peale, even after weeks of suffering them, or to the doctor who was trying to help him find a cause.  Some of that blame definitely lies on the doctor but when side effects could potentially last for months after the medication is no longer being taken it needs to be put out there for the doctor and the patient to make an educated decision on before the drug is consumed.  Peale does have the right to seek out alternative treatments if he wants.

Sure, I agree, the doctors and even pharmacist involved all play a role in informing the patient.  EVERY drug sold in america, OTC or prescribed, includes either an insert or a label describing the risk factors of the medication, and absolutely, Peale and every other person has a right to pursue whatever course of treatment they choose.  Heck, this nutjob with his anti FQ propoganda website is free to post whatever he wants, I don't care.  I'm just trying to bring a bit of balance and bring to light that ANYTHING can be toxic if misused.